The future of FTA technology?

[RedSavina]

I'm curious what you all think about the prospects for a transition to MPEG4.

It seems like the pizza pan guys are really making a push for MPEG4. The economies of bandwidth are understandable, especially with the savings for a HD stream. So I was wondering: is it likely that MPEG4 (whether SD or HD) will replace MPEG2 on FTA? On one hand it seems unlikely due to the cost of encoding equipment for the providers and the cost of updating the installed base of MPEG2 user boxes. On the other hand, transponder space is not cheap and there is a limited number of satellites/slots up there, so it seems more conceivable from that view.

In asking the question I am primarily thinking of Ku, but what about C-band? Would there be a benefit to transitioning the digital C-band signals to MPEG4?

One compelling reason to NOT transition to MPEG4 is that with the pizza pan guys making the move to MPEG4, the hassles brought on by the hackers will diminish as the the commercial systems move away from having the same technology as FTA.

Finally, I also did a little research into European and Asian Ku products. It seems they are taking an approach similar to what our U.S. commercial providers are doing.

I'd love to know what you think, especially from Brian, Tony, Mike, Pete, and the other "gurus" out there.

 

[updatelee]

I think that you will slowly see the small 'allways on' channels goto mpeg4 as it will reduce their onair costs.

feeds will continue to use mpeg2, probably for the same reason they still use analog. they already own the hardware and dont need more bandwidth.

 

[Mr Tony]

Globecast I can see going MPEG4 probably this year

 

[Stargazer]

I assume that the FTA manufacturers would eventually come out with a receiver that will work with MPEG-4 and MPEG-2 all in one box.

 

[SatelliteAV]

We currently have several MPEG2/4 receivers at broadcasters and uplink facilities for evaluation. Several new international services will be launched this year on Galaxy 25 and 26 using MPEG4 encoders. I believe that the transition will be driven by uplinkers passing on the bandwidth savings to customers wishing to transmit only to a specific target audience. Many DTH broadcasters are choosing even today to transmit new services in MPEG 2 as they can place their signals in front of a very large existing base of viewers. As more stations transition to or start-up in MPEG4, a point will be reached where a higher percentage of viewers have MPEG4 capabilities and the pendulum will swing.

 

[qwert1515]

One compelling reason to NOT transition to MPEG4 is that with the pizza pan guys making the move to MPEG4, the hassles brought on by the hackers will diminish as the the commercial systems move away from having the same technology as FTA.

I highly doubt that the commercial uplinkers will care about this as they want to save as much money as possible.

 

[photoman76]

There are really two transitions occurring now. Mpeg 2 to Mpeg 4 and DVB to DVB-S2. The most efficient use of bandwidth would be to combine Mpeg 4 and DVB-S2.

 

[RedSavina]

I highly doubt that the commercial uplinkers will care about this as they want to save as much money as possible.

I agree - I meant that as a good thing from an FTA perspective as it will help diminish the perception of FTA being piracy (which Dish Network has contributed to).

 

[RedSavina]

There are really two transitions occurring now. Mpeg 2 to Mpeg 4 and DVB to DVB-S2. The most efficient use of bandwidth would be to combine Mpeg 4 and DVB-S2.

As far as I know DVB-S can be used for SD or HD MPEG2, but to get MPEG4 HD you need DVB-S2. I assume that DVB-S2 is also needed for MPEG4 SD. Are you referring to QPSK and 8PSK? I believe 8PSK is only possible with DVB-S2.

I'm really pushing the limits of my technical understanding here, but these are the things I believe to be true!

 

[photoman76]

You can use Mpeg 4 SD and HD with DVB or DVB-S2. But you gain about 30% in bandwidth efficiency by switching to DVB-S2.

DVB-S2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Woofle]

I assume that the FTA manufacturers would eventually come out with a receiver that will work with MPEG-4 and MPEG-2 all in one box.

I'm *really* confused about all this MPEG-4 stuff.

Does anyone know if MPEG-4 via satellite is just a retrofit job dropping an H.264 codec into our standard old MPEG-2 transport stream, or is MPEG-4 completely incompatible with MPEG-2 from bottom-to-top?

To my simple-minded brain, you could drop in a more efficient codec but otherwise leave everything else the same (and thus maintain maximum compatibility to minimize the firmware changes rather than require two completely separate sets of firmware.)

Or is this a case of adopting a whole new standard for the sake of completely breaking what went before and forcing the purchase of all-new hardware and two independent standards and writing two completely different sets of firmware?

Just curious if the standards bodies really enjoy re-inventing the wheel and imposing massive new requirements for the pure perverse pleasure they often seem to derive from doing so.

 

[updatelee]

you could think of all video compression formats as codecs, the issue is that ird's have hardware video decoders, not software ones. you can just drop in another codec with a firmware update to the ird. it requires a hardware change (new receiver).

 

[RedSavina]

You can use Mpeg 4 SD and HD with DVB or DVB-S2. But you gain about 30% in bandwidth efficiency by switching to DVB-S2.

DVB-S2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've read that page a number of times, but haven't noticed this phrase until today:
"Today the main use for this new standard is the distribution of HDTV, while the original standard was used mainly for SDTV services. "

However, there is also this phrase: "The transport stream delivered by DVB-S is mandated as MPEG-2."

So, it seems that while MPEG4 can be SD or HD and MPEG2 can be SD or HD, DVB-S can only be MPEG2. DVB-S2 can be either MPEG2 or MPEG4. Therefore you cannot use MPEG4 (SD or HD) with DVB-S - only DVB-S2.

 

[updatelee]

Ive seen mpeg4 on dvb-s it can be done.

 

[photoman76]

Most likely Mpeg 4 didn't exist when the DVB standards were approved. There are currently signals up there that are DVB using Mpeg 4.

 

[RedSavina]

Just 'cuz I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist! Interesting info...

 

[Woofle]

I've read that page a number of times, but haven't noticed this phrase until today:
"Today the main use for this new standard is the distribution of HDTV, while the original standard was used mainly for SDTV services. "

However, there is also this phrase: "The transport stream delivered by DVB-S is mandated as MPEG-2."

So, it seems that while MPEG4 can be SD or HD and MPEG2 can be SD or HD, DVB-S can only be MPEG2. DVB-S2 can be either MPEG2 or MPEG4. Therefore you cannot use MPEG4 (SD or HD) with DVB-S - only DVB-S2.

I think the phrase "transport stream" is probably key here.

The compression happens first. People can talk about MPEG-2 compression or MPEG-4 compression.

Then to put it on the transponder, there is MPEG-2 transport. This adds and carries the tables and data required to tune in programs, build an EPG, etc., and provides a means of multiplexing multiple video and audio streams onto a single satellite transponder such that they can be separated at the receiver into individual programs.

MPEG-2 transport conerns packet formats and operates after the video and audio streams are compressed and encoded. I think in principle, MPEG-2 transport streams could carry any arbitrary data, such as raw text or IP packets, or any compression scheme you can dream of.

So from the responses I've seen here, it may be possible to have an MPEG-4 compression elementary stream with an MPEG-2 transport stream, in which case it is pretty confusing but means that DVB-S could carry "MPEG-4" compressed streams

 

[Woofle]

you could think of all video compression formats as codecs, the issue is that ird's have hardware video decoders, not software ones. you can just drop in another codec with a firmware update to the ird. it requires a hardware change (new receiver).

Oh. Well that makes a lot of sense.

I just assumed the RISC CPUs on these boxes did the decoding too. Shucks. Imagine the flexibility of being able to drop in any new CODEC that's needed so your box would stay current for years.

Or imagine world peace. I guess it was too good to be true

 

[Tron]

Most of the MPEG-4 codecs require substantially faster processors to deal with the compression scheme, so I doubt that the older boxes would be up to the challenge