TIVO vs E*

[Curtis0620]

If you believe that Dish "stole" anything from TiVo, you are severely misguided about the US' patent system. TiVo patented a "process". Dish accomplished the same process using different methods. TiVo's patent is like this: They patent the summing of numbers that equals "4". In their patent example, they show "2 + 2 = 4". Dish comes along and writes code that has to sum numbers to equal "4" also, but they do it with "1 + 1 + 2 = 4". TiVo sues them because they added up to .... "4".

Unless Dish got a hold of TiVo's programming source code, they didn't steal anything. This kind of process -- and many, many companies have ridiculous patents -- simply shouldn't be patentable.

The thing is they did.

 

[TheKrell]

The thing is they did... [get a hold of Tivo's programming source code].

How do you know that? Just having a working Tivo in your possession does not mean you pulled it apart, JTAG'd the firmware, decompiled the resulting mess, and then figured out how it was done. It would be much easier to write the source code yourself from scratch.

Some of us believe the Tivo patents were both incremental and fairly obvious. I can also imagine Dish engineers were led down the primrose path by Broadcom spec sheets. Just seeing what's available from the chipset helps you duplicate the Tivo process exactly, without ever realizing it or "stealing" anything.

 

[vampz26]

The thing is they did.

You can't steal what's given to you. The source code is open source.

 

[Curtis0620]

How do you know that? Just having a working Tivo in your possession does not mean you pulled it apart, JTAG'd the firmware, decompiled the resulting mess, and then figured out how it was done. It would be much easier to write the source code yourself from scratch.

Some of us believe the Tivo patents were both incremental and fairly obvious. I can also imagine Dish engineers were led down the primrose path by Broadcom spec sheets. Just seeing what's available from the chipset helps you duplicate the Tivo process exactly, without ever realizing it or "stealing" anything.

Are you saying that DISH's programmers aren't smart enough to know how to do that?

 

[vampz26]

How do you know that? Just having a working Tivo in your possession does not mean you pulled it apart, JTAG'd the firmware, decompiled the resulting mess, and then figured out how it was done. It would be much easier to write the source code yourself from scratch.

Some of us believe the Tivo patents were both incremental and fairly obvious. I can also imagine Dish engineers were led down the primrose path by Broadcom spec sheets. Just seeing what's available from the chipset helps you duplicate the Tivo process exactly, without ever realizing it or "stealing" anything.

Agreed.

 

[TheKrell]

Are you saying that DISH's programmers aren't smart enough to know how to do that?

I am saying that it's much easier to write source code in a high-level language from scratch, than it is to pour over thousands of lines of decompiled machine instructions whose source code you have never seen, trying to make sense of it. Before you ask, "Yes," I have looked at tiny pieces of decompiled firmware, and it's pretty darn inscrutable.

So are you still claiming that Dish engineers got a copy of the source code?

 

[rockymtnhigh]

If you believe that Dish "stole" anything from TiVo, you are severely misguided about the US' patent system. TiVo patented a "process". Dish accomplished the same process using different methods. TiVo's patent is like this: They patent the summing of numbers that equals "4". In their patent example, they show "2 + 2 = 4". Dish comes along and writes code that has to sum numbers to equal "4" also, but they do it with "1 + 1 + 2 = 4". TiVo sues them because they added up to .... "4".

Unless Dish got a hold of TiVo's programming source code, they didn't steal anything. This kind of process -- and many, many companies have ridiculous patents -- simply shouldn't be patentable.

+1

 

[Curtis0620]

I am saying that it's much easier to write source code in a high-level language from scratch, than it is to pour over thousands of lines of decompiled machine instructions whose source code you have never seen, trying to make sense of it. Before you ask, "Yes," I have looked at tiny pieces of decompiled firmware, and it's pretty darn inscrutable.

So are you still claiming that Dish engineers got a copy of the source code?

I'm saying it is a hell of a lot easier if you have something to base it on.

 

[STL]

You can't steal what's given to you. The source code is open source.

This comment really proves you have absolutely no concept of intellectual property rights.

 

[STL]

I am saying that it's much easier to write source code in a high-level language from scratch, than it is to pour over thousands of lines of decompiled machine instructions whose source code you have never seen, trying to make sense of it. Before you ask, "Yes," I have looked at tiny pieces of decompiled firmware, and it's pretty darn inscrutable.

It wouldn't be the first time that has been done. If the software was so easy to write in the first place, then why did DISH take the time to invite TiVo to demo their product? Heck, some of you people make it sound like it is no harder than simple addition -- which is over simplification on a grand scale. If that was really so simple, DISH would have simply written the code on their own in the first place and never even bothered to invite TiVo to demo theirs.

 

[PKII]

I currently have a Tivo and I have had a Dish DVR. Compared. The best feature is when you unplug the Dish DVR from POWER it don't take 30 minutes to reboot.

Why does Tivo take so long? It acts like it never even been powered up before in its life. Just for a 2 second power loss.

Looks like E should have worked out a deal with Tivo. Now they are gonna have to pay what Tivo wants for a deal. No matter how much it is.

 

[TheKrell]

I'm saying it is a hell of a lot easier if you have something to base it on.

I agree that it would be easier if Dish engineers got a copy of the Tivo source code, comments and all. That is why I'm asking if you think they did, as stated in your post above.

I vehemently deny that trying to figure out what thousands of machine language op codes are doing will make Dish's source-code writing any easer. It's way more difficult to reverse engineer the firmware in this fashion, than it is to write it over again from scratch.

 

[DodgerKing]

I currently have a Tivo and I have had a Dish DVR. Compared. The best feature is when you unplug the Dish DVR from POWER it don't take 30 minutes to reboot.

Why does Tivo take so long? It acts like it never even been powered up before in its life. Just for a 2 second power loss.

Looks like E should have worked out a deal with Tivo. Now they are gonna have to pay what Tivo wants for a deal. No matter how much it is.

One of the few good things about my TiVO is that it only takes a few minutes to reboot.

 

[vampz26]

This comment really proves you have absolutely no concept of intellectual property rights.

HA! It actually proves just the opposite.

...The 'argument to the man' fallacy doesn't really prove anything. just as an fyi...

 

[DodgerKing]

HA! It actually proves just the opposite.

...The 'argument to the man' fallacy doesn't really prove anything. just as an fyi...

It wasn't really an ad hominem argument, per se....just an FYI.

Although you are correct in the sense that he really didn't prove anything

 

[Hall]

The thing is they did (get a hold of Tivo's programming source code).

When has that ever been said ?

 

[CuriousMark]

You can't steal what's given to you. The source code is open source.

We have been over this before. The Linux based OS is open source, the TiVo DVR code, a program running on that operating system, is not.

 

[Thomas22]

There only needs to be a contempt hearing to determine whether the newer models violate that injunction.

You can't have a contempt hearing before a lawsuit is lodged, no?

The lawsuit was decided in 2006. The injunction says:

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED THAT
Each Defendant, its officers, agents, servants, employees and attorneys, and those persons in active concert or participation with them who receive actual notice hereof, are hereby restrained and enjoined, pursuant to 35 U.S.C. § 283 and Fed. R. Civ. P. 65(d), from making, using, offering to sell or selling in the Untied States, the Infringing Products, either alone or in combination with any other product and all other products that are only colorably different therefrom in the context of the Infringed Claims, whether individually or in combination with other products or as a part of another product, and from otherwise infringing or inducing others to infringe the Infringed Claims of the '389 patent.

If the ViP DVRs are only colorably different from the already adjudicated DVRs Dish has been in contempt of court by their use. It only takes a contempt of court hearing to determine whether there is a contempt of court. The lawsuit is already over.

 

[vampz26]

We have been over this before. The Linux based OS is open source, the TiVo DVR code, a program running on that operating system, is not.

Yes, we have been thru that before and no that was not always the case.

 

[jacmyoung]

The lawsuit was decided in 2006. The injunction says:

If the ViP DVRs are only colorably different from the already adjudicated DVRs Dish has been in contempt of court by their use. It only takes a contempt of court hearing to determine whether there is a contempt of court. The lawsuit is already over.

None of the discussions about the software codes, VIPs DVRs matters unless E* gets a stay of the order pending appeal. If the stay is denied, TiVo does not even have to go so far to try to shut off the VIPs, E* will likely have to settle. There is no time to replace all the old DVRs in 30 days, and the impact of shutting off the DVR functions will be too much to not settle.

But the appeals court has already shown its inclination to grant a stay, it is up to TiVo to convince them not to.