What will happen to independent locals on E* next February?

denisincalif

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Oct 1, 2007
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Arcadia, CA
Right now, except for the big four networks in some markets, locals on Dish are apparently analog feeds which have been digitized and compressed for satellite transmission. Next February those analog feeds will be gone. How will E* (and D* for that matter) adjust to this?

E* for sure doesn't have the bandwidth to handle all these channels decently. As far as I can tell, the only thing they can do for now would be to downconvert and compress using MPEG-2. The PQ would be no better than it is today and possibly worse. And, at least in my area, many of the non-big-4 locals already have lots of HD programming that is worth watching.

In the long run, they could increase bandwidth by going to all MPEG-4 (and putting up more satellites) and decent PQ on the independent locals could become a reality. But I can't imagine that happening in less than 5 years even if the Eastern Arc and (I hope it will come) Western Arc go off as planned. It will take longer than that unless market forces or new laws come into play that push them to provide high quality locals.

Is there a chance they would drop independent locals completely? I believe they are under some legal compulsion to provide these locals today. Will the law still force E* to provide them after the big change?
 
garys and icdeberg---You guys haven't answered my question (at least not all of it). I am well aware of what the digital transition means in general. I know that if E* continues to carry locals they will have to grab the digital feed. My specific questions deal with bandwidth and picture quality. Without a considerable increase in bandwidth and without a commitment to picture quality by E*, either the availability or quality of locals will have to suffer, at least in the short run.

I guess I was really asking, does anybody have any estimates on how long it will be before satellite customers get something close to OTA quality on non-big-4 locals? By "something close", I mean about as good as the big 4 are today on Dish, for people who get them in HD.
 
Many stations operate an SD digital channel and an HD digital channel. My local ABC and CBS currently do. Come Feb '09, Dish will take the SD digital channel and supply it for locals (to SD customers). In fact, they already do that with the local ABC.

If the local station only operates an "HD" digital channel, Dish will most likely down-convert it to MPEG-4 SD before it's uplinked. Doing just that will be a huge benefit to Dish in regards to bandwidth.
 
Many stations operate an SD digital channel and an HD digital channel. My local ABC and CBS currently do. Come Feb '09, Dish will take the SD digital channel and supply it for locals (to SD customers). In fact, they already do that with the local ABC.

If the local station only operates an "HD" digital channel, Dish will most likely down-convert it to MPEG-4 SD before it's uplinked. Doing just that will be a huge benefit to Dish in regards to bandwidth.

Thanks for trying to answer my actual question. But there are two problems with your answer.

#1---Taking HD and downconverting to SD involves a significant loss in picture quality. And, at the moment, Dish doesn't have that many MPEG-4 capable channels. And, only people with VIP receivers can watch MPEG-4. So I suspect Dish will be using strictly MPEG-2, with an even bigger drop in picture quality.

#2---The dual channel situation you describe is quite common today. But the two channels are not "SD" vs. "HD". They are analog vs. digital. And this doubling of channels is only temporary. The FCC instituted that system to facilitate the transition to digital. After next February one of the channels will be taken away. The FCC is already busy auctioning off many of the old TV bands for other uses. There is no physical difference between the two channels. Their content differs. And of course their carrier frequency is different. Come next February, or shortly thereafter, all stations will be down to one channel which must have digital content. Using subchannels, many stations will continue to broadcast both an SD and HD version of HD shows (I imagine). But which sub-channel will Dish carry? Today, for the big 4 networks, Dish only provides subchannel 1. To get the others, you have to be able to receive the channel OTA.

To summarize, I worry that local channel subscribers are in for a huge disappointment next February. I hope I am wrong. It would be nice if Dish would make some believable announcements on this subject. But they are having trouble making believable announcements on much simpler matters, so I am not getting my hopes up.
 
#2 - No, my local ABC and CBS currently transmit (3) channels: (1) analog (SD), (1) digital (SD), and (1) digital (HD). On the ABC station, they show the same programming on all (3).
 
Actually Hall is correct and your misinterpreting his reply. It is NOT analog vs digital, it is all digital as in Tulsa our ABC affiliate has 3 digital channels 8.1 is the main HD channel 8.2 is a weather channel and 8.3 is a digital sd version (i.e. 4x3 digital) of the main channel that both Dish and Direct pick up for their sd local services. The analog channel 8 is only used by OTA people and will go off the air in about 8 months as KTUL starts moving transmitters and equipment around on their tower for the permanent digital transition.


edit: I type to slow and Hall beat me to it.
 
They have to convert it in some cases. Two of our stations only broadcast a HD signal. CBS (4-1 WCCO) and NBC (KARE 11) so if the program is not in HD you get the lovely bars on the side. They have no SD counterpart. Dish will probably stretch the channel to fill the screen.

As to what the channel will look like? How do we know that Dish isn't harvesting the digital channel right now? Here in Minneapolis PBS, Fox, My, CW & the Independent station either have a SD counterpart (Fox & My) or they only have a SD channel (PBS has a National HD channel but the local is SD) and they could be picking up the signal that way so nothing will change in 09?
 
Dish picks up a couple of the digital stations in Tulsa and downconverts them for the sd locals and has been for a couple of years. When the Tulsa market launched the Fox affiliate looked terrible with severe ghosting from the analog antenna signal they were getting. they told us to hold on as they were waiting a couple of weeks for the digital station to go live so they could get that feed.
 
Why do people assume that this isa problem? For all we know DISH and DTV are using some digital feeds now.
 
Dish will probably stretch the channel to fill the screen.

As to what the channel will look like? How do we know that Dish isn't harvesting the digital channel right now?
They do in the case of my local ABC. If I tune to channel 2-00 (the satellite-provided, "analog" ABC), I'm actually seeing the local ABC's 2-02 (or 2.2) digital channel, converted by someone for re-broadcast. Actually, now I'm wondering if it's in fact the 2-01 (or 2.1) channel. When a 16:9 HD program is on, the analog Dish channel has bars on all four sides.
 
What are the real world practical differences in PQ between an analog SD channel being converted to mpeg-2 and an HD channel being downconverted to SD mpeg-2?

Links with real data would be nice.
 
There have been some reports in the past of a Dish SD local channel with the network's "HD" logo in the corner. That would seem to support this theory.
 
Dish and Directv are using the digital feeds in many markets already. They take the HD feed, center cut it, and use the resulting 4x3 for the "SD" channel. What you see on your Dish receiver is more the product of them cutting the bitrate down when they send it through their plant.

Both Dish and Directv have found it's cheaper to setup a little point of presence in each city, pull the feeds OTA and backhaul them on an ATM multiplexer than it is to take the feeds individually by fiber from each broadcaster.

You'll never really notice it unless the broadcaster's digital signal goes off air for some reason, then you'll lose that particular local until the transmitter comes back.
 
You'll never really notice it unless the broadcaster's digital signal goes off air for some reason, then you'll lose that particular local until the transmitter comes back.
As I recall, something along those lines is what made it clear what was going on with my local ABC... The digital OTA channel was off-air and ironically, so was Dish's "analog" channel for that station.
 
#2 - No, my local ABC and CBS currently transmit (3) channels: (1) analog (SD), (1) digital (SD), and (1) digital (HD). On the ABC station, they show the same programming on all (3).
No. You are confusing channels with subchannels (multicasting). Let me use my local station KTLA (which is also a superstation) as an example. KTLA started broadcasting the standard NTSC analog signal in the late 1940's on channel 5. It is still doing so, and will continue to do so until next February. With the advent of digital television, KTLA was one of the earliest adopters of digital. They were allocated channel 31 to use to broadcast their digital signal. Channel 5 and channel 31 are two separate channels. The digital signal on channel 31 has (at the moment) two subchannels labeled 5.1 and 5.5. (In the past their were three subchannels in use on channel 31). KTLA has chosen to put the same shows on their analog channel (5) and the first subchannel on their digital channel (channel 31 subchannel 5.1). If a program is available in HD, it appears in HD on channel 31 and in SD of course on channel 5. I do not know what Dish is doing today, but as recently as last December I know that KTLA on LA locals came from the analog feed.

When your digital TV or your Dish receiver with an OTA tuner search for stations, they find the actual digital channel with all its subchannels. They display the subchannel ID's. The fact that the actual channel (31 in KTLA's case) differs from the analog channel number (5 in KTLA's case) is deliberately hidden so as not to confuse the TV-watching public. KTLA is known as channel 5 and has been for not quite 60 years. They would never want to call themselves channel 31, even though that is what they actually are (for digital).

A similar story holds for all stations presently broadcasting both analog and digital. Come next February, there will be no analog broadcasts. Stations presently broadcasting analog will either lose that channel all together, or they will lose their digital channel allocation and switch their old analog channel to digital broadcasts. Both possibilities will take place. But no station will be allowed to keep two channels. I am confident that the channel number the public is used to will remain in their names and be displayed on TV's or tuners.

Stations can have as many subchannels displaying whatever HD or SD content they like, as long as their bandwidth allocation is not exceeded. As of a year ago it was technically possible to have two subchannels, both HD (compressed). Or one subchannel HD and two SD. Or no HD and five SD subchannels. The only constant is the total bandwidth of a channel.

Getting back to KTLA and Dish. At least as recently as last December, when I tested, Dish was giving local channel subscribers in LA the KTLA analog feed, digitized and compressed for satellite transmission. Obviously Dish would not want to keep doing this indefinitely. A direct digital feed is much cleaner and analog feeds are slated to go away. But there are problems, which is why I initiated this thread in the first place. Until next February no station is required to maintain any standards for their digital channel as far as signal strength or availability, because the FCC considers digital television to be in test mode until then. Digital channels can be shut off or weakened at will, and KTLA actually did this from the time ever since they began digital broadcasting on channel 31, up until this past December at least. They would stop (or at least weaken the signal) digital broadcasting for hours or even days at a time, sometimes accidentally and sometimes on purpose for testing.

Apparently, from following this thread, most people have not experienced similar problems and in fact are already getting digital feeds from Dish for their locals. That is great. But the fact remains that, without major upgrades, getting HD from Dish on independent locals is not in the cards. It is my belief that most consumers do not understand this. They think "digital = HD" and will expect (if they subscribe to locals) to see gorgeous HD on every local channel Dish sends them.

I hope that will be true someday, which is why I started what I thought would be a short and sweet thread---one question and two or three answers. I would love to know what Dish plans in this area and on what schedule. I am smart enough to know that it cannot be true as early as this coming February. I am even wondering if some markets will lose some locals all together (via Dish) temporarily.

This question is important to me because I live in a big market with lots of stations, many of which have interesting programming. But because of my location, I do not get acceptable signal for most of them OTA.
 
The must carry regulations still apply and will next year. the problem is taht ifa stationc annot get their main digital signal to the E* or Dd* head end in that market yhrn the satellite carrier will not be required to carry them.

Will there be ANY disruptions? probably. but it is hard for any of us to say what specific channels might be dropped. We do not know which channels The carriers ae picking up digitally now and we cannot even be uste if the carriers are getting a fiber feed or an OTA one.


B ut be aware that in Feb of 2008 these stations will be broadcasting digitally but not necessarily in HD. Many of the independents in particualr will have a lot of SD programming so the tax on bandwidth may not be as great as you think.
 
Thanks!!!

That article is very informative, disappointing, but not surprising. Given today's satellite situation it is obviously impossible to have DirectTV and Dish carry all the locals in HD by next year, even if somebody handed each company a trillion dollars. I started this thread because I wondered how long it would take. The article says "by 2013". As a realist I doubt that it will even happen that soon. But at least I know the pressure is on for D* and E* to comply.
 

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