WHOO HOOOO!!! PS3 gets Upconversion!!

[JoeSp]

Your statement about there being no information outside of 16-235 was inherently wrong. You mislead people who do not know anything about calibrating a high definition displays when you make misleading statements like that. If you have a display that does black at 16 and white at 235 then you are correct. But if you are talking about a high definition display whose range of black to white is 0-255 and when calibrating equipment to properly display that range then it is important to know the differance and that there is a differance.

Standard video endodes at 16-235 but high definition is differant. Especially the new HD colour standard of 36bit. Newer high definition players (BD and HD-DVD) properly using HDMI 1.3 with a HDMI 1.3 display that is capable will use the wider spectrum. This is where HD is going in the near future.

Analog and some digital displays are currently showing black at 0 and white at 255. These displays need to be calibrated to that range and the players need to be able to output that information. As the post stated, there is valuable information in the areas below 16 and above 235 that affect some digital displays. If your player cannot play back those areas then that is information your HD display will be missing.

This is the reason I always ask about calibration and recomend a profesional calibration for your home theater. A good calibration will do wonders for your HD PQ and your enjoyment of your investment. Also knowing wheather or not your particular display is best suited at 16-235 or 0-255 is also valuable information. Especially for folks of DLPs as there is information that affects PQ ouside of the 16-235 range for their sets.

 

[diogen]

I guess the discussion is back on the table. I'm game.

Standard video endodes at 16-235 but high definition is differant.

And in the very first post I responded to, it was

You will not only see a differance in games but also in BDs and DVDs also.

So, it was you who mislead people about DVDs using more than [16-235] since DVD is not high definition. Yes or no?
Denon 3910 can play DVDs but no hidef disks. How did you see differences

There is a differance in range of the Picture between the two when playing a DVD.

when by your own admission there are none?
And please spare me "this is irrelevant" argument.

...You mislead people who do not know anything about calibrating a high definition displays.
...But if you are talking about a high definition display whose range of black to white is 0-255 and when calibrating equipment to properly display that range...
...Analog and some digital displays are currently showing black at 0 and white at 255. These displays need to be calibrated to that range and the players need to be able to output that information.
...A good calibration will do wonders for your HD PQ and your enjoyment of your investment.

Can you slow down with this "calibration" feast? Did I ever question that? Did I ever question the value of a player and display capable of showing BTB and WTW? I'm using an HTPC and front projectors for over 3 years. And for this amount of time VMR9 was doing BTB and WTW (when it was needed) just fine for me, thank you.
It costs a fraction of what your Denon 3910 does and is capale of doing 10 times as much.

Especially the new HD colour standard of 36bit.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?
Both BD/HD are 4:2:0 24bit (8bit x3 primary colors). Were since inception, still are and will be when they die.
There is a non-zero chance 4:2:2 gets implemented but none of the current players will play it, PS3 included.

Newer high definition players (BD and HD-DVD) properly using HDMI 1.3 with a HDMI 1.3 display that is capable will use the wider spectrum. This is where HD is going in the near future.

No they won't. This HDMI 1.3 is such an overmarketed meaning nothing POS it isn't even funny. Do more reading on it.

As the post stated, there is valuable information in the areas below 16 and above 235 that affect some digital displays.

During mastering, i.e. when working with material neither you, nor me nor anybody else ever see.
Where does it say the output is [0-255]? It can't be even only because people with non-[0-255] displays or players (majority today) will see clipping if this were true.

Diogen.

 

[diogen]

One quick follow-up with the glimmer of hope to close this discussion for good: those interested should have a look at today insider discussion on AVS involving a Sony compressionist insider (paidgeek) and his counterpart from Microsoft (benwaggoner):

Ben Waggoner:

all the A-list titles I've been involved in are 709, and the source tapes were as well.

A quick look at the BT.709 standard reveals that it is a form of component (not [0-255] RGB)

When representing the signals in digital form, the results are scaled and rounded, and offsets are typically added. For example, the scaling and offset applied to the Y' component per specification results in the value of 16 for black and the value of 235 for white when using an 8-bit representation.

Paidgeek:

xvYCC is an IEC standard (IEC 61966-2-4) that allows the use of code values between 0-16 and 235-254 to extend color gamut. It should not be confused with "deep color" which as far as I can tell is a marketing name given to describe pixel coding depths above 8 bits. Your question is insightful with respect to possible complications of using the extended color space allowed by xvYCC.

and

There is no restriction on creating games with either deep color or wide gamut and consumers should well be able to appreciate the differences as 10bit native and 10bit processed displays take hold in the market.

Few conclusions we can make from these:
1. Even the compressionists get [16-235] material. BD might do something differently, but at least all Warner BD titles encoded in VC1 have no BTB and WTW (they do one encode for both formats).
2. xvYCC color space [0-255] can create "possible complications", hence BD movies don't use them.
3. Games can use [0-255] and even 10bit.
4. 12bit (36bit) is a pipedream, nobody talks about it.

Also interesting how the HDMI 1.3 marketting for PS3 is downplayed by paidgeek:

There has been no shouting from Sony about the PS3 supporting HDMI 1.3, in fact, the tech specs on the PS website don't even make mention of it.

Diogen.

 

[JoeSp]

Diogen, Analog HDTV (hence my Pioneer 630HD) is calibrated at 0-255. So , I set the 3910 for playback using that referance -- which is a voltage setting for input and output of blacks and whites. Guess you did not read all of the article.

Some Fixed panel displays also are calibrated at 0-255. Not all HD displays are 16-235, most but not all.

On a properly calibrated display you can not only see the differance when a displays black and white is set to 0-255 but you can see the differance when you set your output to 16-235 and your display is set to 0-255. This creates the loss of picture definition in black and white scenes.

In your replys you state some of the information that will be found in future HD discs especially those using the new xvYCC color. Of course you can say that nobody will be using this but then there were those who said DVI and HDMI would not fly. Where has that thinking got us?

When you see the new led-backlit LCDs and DLPS this fall remember most of what you just typed. I think crow is in your future diet plans.

 

[diogen]

Geeez... Do you read my posts?
Who the f**k is talking about calibration? abilities?
What does xvYCC have to do with BD movies?

The only 1 statement I ever made (at least 4 times):
DVDs and BD/HD the way we have them on optical disks don't have BTB and WTW. And you admitted this about DVDs.
Hence, player/display abilities don't matter, they can't show them. Period.
Are you saying you see what doesn't exist? You should try this on a church forum.
Preaching and prophesizing you do better.

Do you have anything but crow in your food? You shouldn't since every factual statement regarding this issue (add 36bit displays, HDMI 1.3, etc.) was wishful thinking at best, blatant lie at worst.

I'm done here.
Take care.

Diogen.