Why isn't Standard Definition (SD) quality better?

[rufwork]

Can anyone tell me the difference between the SD and HD formats from Dish? I'm wondering because I have an HD television, and the SD channels are not only lower resolution, but exceptionally pixelated when you look at them closely.

There's some talk about something similar in this thread:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-ne.../224490-downconvert-hd-instead-crappy-sd.html

But I think I'm closer to comparing apples to apples -- I've got an HDMI cable from my 211k to my HDTV and RCA cables from the same 211k going to an analog monitor. (Surprisingly, I can watch both at the same time, which is good when I want to watch Red Zone while occasionally jumping around the OTA NFL games.)

SD channels on my HDTV are heavily pixelated. SD from the same 211k on my analog monitor are very sharp. Sorry to state the obvious for so many of you, but this tells me...

1.) The SD signal from the satellite isn't a digital stream (as the above thread suggests too); it's a native SD signal. (duh)
2.) The difference in resolution between sets says the 211k could be doing a better job turning that analog signal to digital for my HDTV. (less duh)

If I'm right with 2.), is there a receiver that already has a better SD converter?

Why doesn't my 211k do a better job translating? Processor bottleneck? Bad software? etc.?

(I should add that SD OTA multicasts are much less pixelated than my Dish SD channels from the 211k. Not that surprising in one way -- OTA SD are native digital signals, just in a lower resolution, so less translation needed -- but very surprising in another -- getting analog to a quality SD digital signal is just a case of parsing enough zeros and ones. My point here is just that SD doesn't necessarily mean the heavy pixelation I'm seeing from my 211k.)

 

[Jhon69]

Can anyone tell me the difference between the SD and HD formats from Dish? I'm wondering because I have an HD television, and the SD channels are not only lower resolution, but exceptionally pixelated when you look at them closely.

There's some talk about something similar in this thread:
http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-ne.../224490-downconvert-hd-instead-crappy-sd.html

But I think I'm closer to comparing apples to apples -- I've got an HDMI cable from my 211k to my HDTV and RCA cables from the same 211k going to an analog monitor. (Surprisingly, I can watch both at the same time, which is good when I want to watch Red Zone while occasionally jumping around the OTA NFL games.)

SD channels on my HDTV are heavily pixelated. SD from the same 211k on my analog monitor are very sharp. Sorry to state the obvious for so many of you, but this tells me...

1.) The SD signal from the satellite isn't a digital stream (as the above thread suggests too); it's a native SD signal. (duh)
2.) The difference in resolution between sets says the 211k could be doing a better job turning that analog signal to digital for my HDTV. (less duh)

If I'm right with 2.), is there a receiver that already has a better SD converter?

Why doesn't my 211k do a better job translating? Processor bottleneck? Bad software? etc.?

(I should add that SD OTA multicasts are much less pixelated than my Dish SD channels from the 211k. Not that surprising in one way -- OTA SD are native digital signals, just in a lower resolution, so less translation needed -- but very surprising in another -- getting analog to a quality SD digital signal is just a case of parsing enough zeros and ones. My point here is just that SD doesn't necessarily mean the heavy pixelation I'm seeing from my 211k.)

The only suggestion I would suggest is to try different hookups,Component,even S-Video and A/V to compare picture quality,then go with the best one for your viewing and if after you have tried that and the pictures still look bad you may need to replace the receiver.Good Luck!

I also hope your not viewing the picture from only 3 feet from your HDTV?.:yikes

 

[rufwork]

The only suggestion I would suggest is to try different hookups,Component,even S-Video and A/V to compare picture quality,then go with the best one for your viewing and if after you have tried that and the pictures still look bad you may need to replace the receiver.Good Luck!

I also hope your not viewing the picture from only 3 feet from your HDTV?.:yikes

If I used a different hook up, then the thing translating to a digital signal would be my HDTV rather than the 211k, correct? Is that why you'd suggest a switch? That's an interesting alternative I hadn't thought of trying.

That said, I guess I should say that I'm not particularly upset with the picture quality as a practical matter [or I would pay $10 a month for HD]. It is viewable. I'm pretty sure I'm getting SD from a 211k via HDMI as Dish intended. I'm more interested in the technical discussion. Which is a convoluted way of saying that yes, I'm viewing from about three feet away when I notice the insane pixelation. I should take a few screenshots.

So rather than being worried about watching, I'm wondering why the 211k doesn't do a better job making analog into a digital signal. I'll try your suggestion and let my TV decode, as the 211k does seem to do a good job passing along the analog signal, and see if that's better or worse -- then I'll have a little more context for the question...

1.) My HDTV is better than the 211k. Why doesn't Dish do better?
2.) 211k > HDTV. Why doesn't my Black Friday special do better than the 211k? Oh yeah, it was really cheap.
OR...
3.) They're exactly the same. Is there a [hardware/software == platform] standard that's providing this mediocre translation quality?

 

[TheKrell]

I disagree with a lot of what was said above. Dish mpeg-2 SD is 544X480, while I hear that Dish mpeg-4 SD is 480X480 (but do not have any way of verifying that). There are a lot of HDTVs out there that do an absolutely squatulent job of upscaling these non-standard SD resolutions. A few even do a terrible job of upscaling standard ATSC SD signals, for which there is no excuse. Anyhow, what you are seeing is very likely your TV doing a lousy job of upscaling Dish digital SD. I forget which menu setting this is exactly, but you very likely have your 211k set up for 480p output, when instead it should be set to your panel resolution. Note that whatever the setting is, it will scale all channels to this resolution, HD and SD alike, and then your TV will do the upscaling (if any). This is a bad idea because of the many panels out there that can't do a good job of upscaling Dish SD, while the 211k most certainly can. At least that is my experience on my 612's and my 722.

 

[Jim S.]

Aside from the upscaling issue, CRT's may do a better job of hiding flaws. A standard NTSC signal could only change color one-third (I think was the number) as rapidly as brightness, in order to keep the color carrier bandwidth from exceeding the whole channel's bandwidth. Also, the persistence of the phosphor glow smooths color transitions.

 

[george357]

On my LG TV 50" I had to change the picture settings to where everything was off/normal with no extras or up-scaling to get rid of pixelation and provide the best picture possible with SD.

 

[rufwork]

I disagree with a lot of what was said above.... A few even do a terrible job of upscaling standard ATSC SD signals, for which there is no excuse. Anyhow, what you are seeing is very likely your TV doing a lousy job of upscaling Dish digital SD. I forget which menu setting this is exactly, but you very likely have your 211k set up for 480p output, when instead it should be set to your panel resolution.

Well, it'd be more difficult to disagree if you dropped by. It's fugly.

After reading the thread I referred to, above, (and before I posted) I did dig into my System Setup/HD Setup menu and swapped to 720p, which is what my set handles, so that's not the issue (or I've still done something incorrectly).

Note that whatever the setting is, it will scale all channels to this resolution, HD and SD alike, and then your TV will do the upscaling (if any). This is a bad idea because of the many panels out there that can't do a good job of upscaling Dish SD, while the 211k most certainly can. At least that is my experience on my 612's and my 722.

That's an interesting take, that the issue is that a (potentially perfect) 544x or 480x480 signal is coming out of the 211k and heading to the set via HDMI, but the TV can't handle it well. Assuming my settings are right, is there some way I can check that short of finding another set?

Aside from the upscaling issue, CRT's may do a better job of hiding flaws. A standard NTSC signal could only change color one-third (I think was the number) as rapidly as brightness, in order to keep the color carrier bandwidth from exceeding the whole channel's bandwidth. Also, the persistence of the phosphor glow smooths color transitions.

Well, the CRT image for me seems perfect... it's not just smoothing the corners; the pixelation is gone. From TheKrell's post, I must be reading this wrong, as he says SD on Dish is mpeg2 or 4, but our favorite, the Wikipedia, So It Has To Be True seems to suggest that there's no digital in SD satellite broadcasts. If that's right, it would quickly explain why an analog set looks better -- there's no conversion. That's what I was assuming, but now it sounds like I'm wrong.

@TheKrell -- are you saying that all signals from the satellites are now digital, HD and SD? Were they always that way for Dish? Where should I be looking for these answers? I can't Google them up to save my life.

Thanks for the help. I'll post some pix tomorrow.

Edit:

Note that whatever the setting is, it will scale all channels to this resolution, HD and SD alike, and then your TV will do the upscaling (if any).

If that were true, shouldn't my HD channels have looked pretty cruddy too? They're fantastic. I've been trying to determine if the OTA HD channels look better on Dish or not, contrary to the reports that OTA HD signals aren't compressed. I think I've decided I really can't tell much difference.

 

[TheKrell]

After reading the thread I referred to, above, (and before I posted) I did dig into my System Setup/HD Setup menu and swapped to 720p, which is what my set handles, so that's not the issue (or I've still done something incorrectly).

If you switched it, then what was it before? (The default is inexplicably 480p, and there is no native passthrough setting as purists want.)

If that were true, shouldn't my HD channels have looked pretty cruddy too? They're fantastic.

Yes they should have, unless your TV scaler does a bangup job of scaling up a "normal" SD signal. I haven't checked, but I can imagine the SD going out 480X480, and the HD going out 720X480 (like a DVD). Somebody should check on what it does in that default setting.

That's an interesting take, that the issue is that a (potentially perfect) 544x or 480x480 signal is coming out of the 211k and heading to the set via HDMI, but the TV can't handle it well. Assuming my settings are right, is there some way I can check that short of finding another set?

TV-dependent. On my Westinghouse, simply hitting the i button (for info) puts up the resolution of the current input.

@TheKrell -- are you saying that all signals from the satellites are now digital, HD and SD? Were they always that way for Dish?

They were always 100% digital on Dish.

I've been trying to determine if the OTA HD channels look better on Dish or not, contrary to the reports that OTA HD signals aren't compressed. I think I've decided I really can't tell much difference.

Many people think that the mpeg-2 HD OTA, at least when there aren't a bunch of subchannels starving the bandwidth, is better than Dish's HD. It is close in my estimation as well, but I don't have a 65" 1080p set viewed from 3' either. One thing we can say for certain: OTA digital signals are indeed compressed using the MPEG-2 standard.

 

[3HaloODST]

Yep on my 722k WA setup with the MPEG2 SD things look a LOT better than they used to on my old 625 with my HDTV. I bet it's just because as previously mentioned instead of my HDTV doing the upscaling the 722k is doing so and doing a MUCH better job. I find the SD VERY acceptable on my HDTV. Whereas with my old 625 I preferred to watch it on my old tube TV because I couldn't stand the picture on my HDTV.

Oh and as for OTA vs DISH HD, I have compared OTA vs my locals on DISH and couldn't tell one bit of difference (both HD.)

 

[jliehr]

What's the size difference in these TV's? That can make a big difference also.

 

[47HO]

What's the size difference in these TV's? That can make a big difference also.

I'm thinking that this is the most important point of all.

 

[Brisak]

Why would you want to watch sd on an HDTV anyway.I have a 65 inch dlp and
Sd is unbearable to watch.That's the biggest complaint I get when I finish up an install.The customer always asks is the dish hooked up right.It's a highly compressed digital signal.when it decompresses to conform to a hd tv it's going to look like crap.

 

[sundude90]

SD will always look worse on a HD Tv, then a SD TV. It's because the HD TV shows the imperfections & flaws. You will notice that on any provider, including Cable & DirecTv.

 

[Dennis_Bham]

The SD picture source is 480i ... 480 horizontal lines, interlaced..

Your HDTV is either 720p or 1080p. It is designed to display a fixed number of lines in a progressive fashion. This means that the SD signal must be de-interlaced and also be unscaled from 480 horizontal lines to either 720 or 1080 horizontal lines. The upconversion is a process where the TV (or the satellite receiver depending on how you configure them) "makes up" the extra info based upon the existing info and predictive calculations. That is the main reason why the SD signal looks so bad when viewed on the direct view HDTV.

Your old analog CRT set is not a discrete pixel technology. It is a multi-sync analog device that adapts to the horizontal lines by varying its sweep rate. It is also designed to display interlaced signals by alternating horizontal line imaging every frame with persistent phospers holding the previous frame information. It does a MUCH better job painting a 480i signal.

The HDTV looks worse than the analog set not because the HDTV shows flaws. It is because the HDTV's discrete pixel technology distorts the SD signal when unconverted and displayed on a non-native 480 line display. The analog set is designed to adapt to the 480 line signal by controlling its sweep rate and therefore not distort the 480i image.

 

[TBoneit]

Simply put: A SD signal to a SD TV will always look better than the same SD signal fed to a HDTV.

The fact that you are using the lowest form of connectivity to your SD set helps smooth out the video along with losing sharpness.

A Analog Monitor has no native resolution and will look just as sharp at all resolutions on a computer, whereas a LCD has one native resolution where it will look it best.


A good high quality HDTV set will also show a better SD picture than a cheapo HDTV. That is why a latest generation HDTV from a brand name will outperform a cheapo HDTV of the same size.
The $200 32" HDTVs going on sale Black Friday will not have nearly as good as a brand name. And no Westinghouse, Emerson etc. are not brand names these days. The names were purchased by Chinese companies.

 

[whatchel1]

details

Your HDTV is either 720p or 1080p.

Missed 1080i here; many HDTV's were that rez.

I haven't checked, but I can imagine the SD going out 480X480, and the HD going out 720X480 (like a DVD).

DVD's best rez was 480p. Only Blu-Ray & HD DVD could have 720 or better rez.

All digital signals no matter the source are compressed. It is part & parcel of the MPEG standards. HDTV's (non CRT) pretty much can't hide the flaws of 480i or p. It's the computer term know as GIGO (garbage in garbage out). SD looks bad on most HDTV's, even worse on the highly compress & limited bandwidth given by sat providers.

 

[DishSubLA]

I have to say that as bad as Dish SD channels are, the Sony Bravia Engine on their HDTV's that I and another have does an excellent job of cleaning up the Dish HD mess and displaying a surprisingly watchable SD PQ. Now on my Sharp, it is the true crappy Dish SD.

 

[tvropro]

SD will never look great on a HD set if it was originally downconverted in retransmit. 480 x 480 is not the original 640 x 480 that SD actually is. So you have to stretch the picture that much more to start with. Now a true 640 x 480 signal without the excessive compression like the pizza & cable providers do, will look excellent. I'm talking C band master feed's here. When I tune to one of those SD signals they can rival or exceed allot of the HD quality that is put out by pizza or cable. In short garbage in garbage out.

A SD signal on Dish or Direct will look allot better on a SD 480i bottle so if your really into the SD stuff and watch it allot best to hook that to the old analog set using composite or S video and enjoy the difference.

Some scalers in HDTV's will look better on the over compressed SD signal than others. My Sharp Aquos 1080p tv does a good job with DirecTV. I also improved the picture more with an inline electronic device that I built that cleans up the S video signal from digital artifacts. While it can't rival the c band master, its quite pleasing to the eyes. And I'm a picky one about picture quality.

 

[MikeD-C05]

I 've got to say that I don't really watch much sd anymore. I have all 5 major nets in hd and now PBS . I have my news stations like Cnn and Msnbc in hd, my movie stations in hd, like AMC ,TMC and almost everthing else I really watch in hd. The only station I watch in sd quite alot is TVland. But I have all Toshiba hd tvs in the house. The reason I bought them was that they do a good job of making sd look good on HD tvs. So I don't really see any bad pq on sd. I predict in another 5 years or less there won't be any sd channels except religious and shopping channels. HD transition has taken a while since they first got started back in the early part of this decade. But by 2015 there shouldn't be any reason why everything isn't in hd .

I also have found that the sd channels look better to me on eastern arc sats :72.7/61.5. I have both a dish 1000.2 sat dish pointed at western arc and an eastern arc dish 1000.4 sat dishe out back on poles . My living room and boy's room are on eastern arc and my master bedroom is on western arc and I see a difference in pq on sd on the same channel on Toshiba hd tvs. OF course your mileage will vary because picture quality is subjective.