WildBlue Installers

[Todd Humphrey]

If you are working 5 days a week in construction, you will need to be assured of 1.5 WB installs a day average to make the same income. With WB you will have much more vehicle expense, and material, insurance cost.
Working in construction you also had some workmans comp protection. If you get hurt as WB installer, you will not have such protection UNLESS you get a private disability plan.
Please do not take these comments as if I was trying to talk you out of this industry, I am only trying to point out that you must consider far more than what you are paid. I know several installers who work 8-10 hours a day 5-6 days a week and still cannot put money in savings. They still live month to month and have no disability insurance. If they get hurt and cannot work for a month, they start to loose their homes.
As an employee at least they would have some with unemployment benefits.

What are your fixed monthly expenses?
Have you figured in insurance, business lic, booking keeping, accountant (if needed)
How many jobs do you need to meet these expenses?
Do you have at least a favorable situation where you will receive that many jobs?
Is the company(s) you plan to get work from, reliable?
Have they established a history of producing reliable work loads?

Just the basics of business to consider.

 

[HCI]

I have signed a few contracts that had those "installation consist of travel to and from customers home" clauses. In those cases, I reduced my coverage area to a 15 mile radius and informed the company of my trip charges to extended areas. Most the time, the company paid the trip charges from their own pocket. Sometimes they had the customer pay more.

I have NEVER signed a contract as is. When you are given a contract, it is NOT in your best interest. You must consider what is best for YOU, and your company, then change the terms to meet YOUR needs. The base rate is often hard to change, but other terms are always on the table.

To many dealers and installers have no clue how to sell these days. You march to the music of DISH and DTV. You are told what you can charge, and are afraid to make a living.

Travel to and from subscriber location within 50 miles of installer office.

Straight from Wildblue's website. http://www.wildblue.com/getWildblue/standard_install.jsp

Its the same thing with Hughes.

Let me use a different approach. If you do not have enough jobs that you cannot schedule 3 or 4 in the same location,in the same day, to make up your gas money for travel you should not be in the business.

The easiest way to make money in the business is to cover a large area. Our company covers 5 states, and while we have subcontractors in area's and we all cover a certain area sometimes we have to travel out of state even if we don't make alot of money on the job. Just today I traveled almost 3 hours for a job I made under $100 on. I have done this before and it will not be the last time. The reason why is next week I may have 2 jobs I will do 3 hours away and make $200 per job.

You can probably get away with just working close to your home office, charge trip fee's and just making a living, or you could expand yourself so your business will grow. Think of any growing business, they don't just stay local, its hard for any business to just be a local and make enough revenue to stay afloat in a hard time.

Just my view.

 

[Todd Humphrey]

I do not care what is on the WildBlue or HughesNet web site. I do not work for them. I work for myself via contracts with local dealers.

My situation may be unique compared to others because I cannot drive more than 1 hour in three directions before I am either in Canada, under the Puget sound or on a mountain top. To my south is Seattle which has the worse traffic on the west coast. VERY long drive times once you get 50 miles to my south. My market area is limited so we need to maximize our earning potential. That does affect our business plan. So please consider our situation when you evalute my opinions.

The bottom line, is it would be nice to be assured of 3 jobs a day, but as a contractor there is absolutely no assurance you will have work past what is scheduled. You said you can make $200 per job. Compared to what others are being paid, that is pretty good. How is it you are paid far more than anyone one else?

As far as driving 3 hours for a job, without trip fees, is insane. Why do you accept a condition whereas you are the only person who makes less money and assume the risk of losing money (if you have to make a FREE warranty trip).

If Wildblue wants to sell to a customer where they have no local installer, then they should pay extra to get that customer. If a person wants to live in the middle of nowhere, then they should expect to pay more to get someone to come that far. If a dealer markets into an area, then they should be willing to cover the extra cost of providing installation and service to that customer.

Why do you accept the idea that the installer should absorb the travel cost and not the dealer or the customer?

If you justify traveling long distances to one customer because you make it up on other installs, then why not give a discount to customers who live close to you? Why do you overcharge customers who actually live in your area? We think that customers who do business with us because they choose to do business with a local company should not be subsidizing another customers install. That makes no sense.

I am also wondering how many times you have to drive back to one of those jobs 3 hours away for a free service call? One trip back would cost you not only any profit you made on the job, but you lose any income you otherwise would earn with another installation.

An lastly. What happens with your work load, if the WB satellite stops working or your beam is shut off? I know of 4 WB installers who went out of business because WB shut off the WA beam. These installers had 3 installs a day and then it all just went away. After 26 years I have learned a very important lesson. Your situation can, and one day will change without notice.

As a contractor you must earn enough income to put money in the bank to cover the worse case scenario. An Injury or lost of contract can happen at any time. Plan ahead to protect your business and your family.

 

[HCI]

Our company has two parts as far as satellites go. The first one we are a retailer for Directv and Dish. We sell, install, and service 100% of our work. Our Directv and Dish installers work 5 or 6 days a week and have 2 or 3 jobs per day. We sell warranties that customers buy when they sign up that extends pass the installation warranty.

The other part is Hughes. We have a contract with P10 a distributor and the amount of work we get out of them makes up for any type of travel we may have. We do Home and Enterprise work. I mainly do Enterprise work which pays far above what normal installs pay "to answer your question". They also take longer as some may be in a 50,000+ sq foot factory. The farthest I have been is around 350 miles from my office on a 3 day trip were I made over $800, and my hotels were taken care of. Not by Hughes but the company I work for. We cannot charge customers for anything that is considered standard installation with travel being one of the points. We can charge for non standard installs for instance, poles, more than one computer hook-up etc. We can also charge for extra time spent on the job due to instances beyond our control, these are times when Hughes systems may be down and we cannot commission the unit.

As for service on Hughes, customers have a 15 month warranty were Hughes will pay us for service as long as we a service order has not been closed out for less than 10 or 15 days.

The only free service call we have to do is one were we did not do something right the first time. You should never have to do a FREE service call for something that was not your fault if a company is not paying your for service you need to find a new place to work.

I do agree with you on the point you should try to make as much money as you can so you can to provide for your family. Thats why I am trying to make the point to not leave any options closed when it comes to doing that. Seek out anything that can make you your next dollar.

 

[Todd Humphrey]

If you are doing fulfillment work with P10 then you have to follow HughesNet installation guidelines. What I hate is when an installer thinks he MUST follow HughesNet requirements when he is free to negotiate ANY deal they wish with the dealer. The dealer can say they want to follow HughesNet guidelines, but I choose not too. I exceed those guidelines when it comes what I will do for the customer has part of a basic installation. Included mileage is an area I am a little less than Hughesnet.

I provide a far superior service to both the dealer and their customers. For that service there is no way I am only going to earn the same amount as some hack company. I am NOT going to install 5 foot ground rods and call that proper. I am NOT going to tell a customer that a ground pole mount is required just so I can over charge them for a thin wall fence tube as a ground post. I am NOT going to install the system and then leave without testing the Email and configuring their MyHughesnet account.

I know every installer says they install to HughesNet standards, but that is pure crap. If you install 5 foot ground rods, use fence tube as ground post, do not use conduit or flooded cable for burial applications, do not install the HughesNet CD on the customer computer, do not configure the Email, ect..... then you are not installing to HughesNet standards.
A lot of these installers are the same guys who say they do OK at the price they are paid. Sure they do well because they cut corners.

If you only try to match what others are doing , then you will never be worth more than the others. My largest dealer says he gets guys in all the time wanting to do their installs. When he tells them what type of deal he would need (which is the deal I proposed), they say they cannot do that for the price they charge. Then they do something amazing. They leave!!!!! They do not even consider the idea of charging MORE so they can provide those services.

Never be afraid to ask for more money, just be willing to give something back in exchange.

 

[HCI]

I absolutely agree with you 100% about the hack installers. I have even seen crap jobs on the Enterprise side which are suppose to be the A+. These guys make it hard for others to make money and are one reason why the companies don't pay more. With Dishnetwork "atleast around here" all you need is two arms and legs and you can install. A 4 week training period and they think they know all. I have been complaining about this for years.

I have been to countless service calls were the best thing to do is deinstall and reinstall instead of trying to make sense of what the other tech "wait they don't deserve that term" did. One thing I don't understand is when they mount a groundblock on a pole 3 inches vertical above the ground. Who trained these dumbasses.

Most of the dealers that generate this work deal with Hughes directly. We have no say in the matter. We cannot just call them and tell them we want to renegotiate contracts.

The way I view it is so what if you make the same as some hack company. As long as you provide better work than them you will be around far longer after them. When the hack company next door finally is uncovered because of crappy installs or installers for that matter, then take advantage of that and gain control of any work they would normally do. A crummy installs will soon catch up to the installer or company eventually.

 

[chadzx11]

The farthest I have been is around 350 miles from my office on a 3 day trip were I made over $800, and my hotels were taken care of.

This made me feel a whole lot better. In 7 days I went from Holly Grove Ar to Lithonia Ga and back home. QCing all the way. ~165 sites total, $3K minus 5 nights in various motel 6's (Columbus, Bessemmer, Gadsden, Marietta, and Anniston), and ~$200 for gas. When I was installing, I NEVER got $3K worth of work in a 7 day period, ever. About $10 for food a day (I only eat on meal---I'm fat enough, trying to burn some blubber.)

41 were Sonics. You have no idea how hard it is for a fat dude to leave a sonic empty handed 39 times (I gave in twice--once was just for a shake and the other time was on teusday---got the five for five and had sonic burgers for two days).

I could have done more, but Sunday--my best day (33 completed QC's) my wheel bearing started growling, so I had to spend an hour and a half repairing that. Teusday, I spent almost an hour wandering around State Mutual Stadium taking pictures to accompany an article I wrote for my fledgling site. Wednesday was the Atlanta metro area, and lets just say I was ready to GTFO almost as soon as I got there. Yesterday, I needed to go up I65 from a USDA site in the middle of birmingham to a DTV site in the ghetto north of I20, but there was a massive traffic jam, so I hit the surface streets and swung around through bessemmer to the exit with the cheapest gas in town, hedging my bet that traffic would be outbound on 20. It was smooth sailing from there to where I needed to go. I don't know if it was quicker, but it was one hell of a lot less frustrating, plus I got to save a couple dimes on the tankful.


QC'ing its not just a job---its an adventure.

 

[Jared Twomey]

I do not care what is on the WildBlue or HughesNet web site. I do not work for them. I work for myself via contracts with local dealers.

If you justify traveling long distances to one customer because you make it up on other installs, then why not give a discount to customers who live close to you? Why do you overcharge customers who actually live in your area?

while i totally agree that an installer needs to be making enough money to live on, and still have a little in the bank, I disagree on some of your points.


Ok, here is my situation. I used to install full time and basically did all the hiring and firing of our subs. Now I just install when I feel like it, and I QC our installers.

As far as your first comment. If I had a subcontractor tell me that, they would no longer be working for me. Your work reflects on the company that sold the job and if you are charging my customers above and beyond what I quoted them, it makes me look bad.

And as far as some jobs making up for others. That is how installing is. Some jobs are easy, some are not... but at the end of the day, can you make enough money to make it worth it to you.
Do you give a discount to the retailer when it is a close job that is all prewired ready to go and it is the easiest job you ever had. No, of course you don't. Why not, cause the install on the 3 story brick house without an inch of coax run later that afternoon will make up for it.

And yeah, I am perfectly fine making $125 an install for Wildblue. Why, I don't have to worry about stocking equipment or supplies. I don't have to worry about warrantying the job. He covers my insurance. He pays for all travel and training.
And I don't have to worry about finding work. In the 5 or 6 years I have been doin this, there has only been maybe once or twice that I had a week when I didn't have all the work I could want. Why, cause the guy I work for is good to his customers and doesn't nickle and dime them with all kinds of additional "hidden fees" that they weren't originally sold on.

DO i think for the most part installers are underpaid... yeah, i do. But do i think that 125 an install is too low for wildblue. No, personally, I don't. But again, it depends on who you work for and your situation. It takes me at most 2 hours to install a wildblue system(he has the dish already assembled for me). I make about $50 an hour if you include travel time. Thats not too shabby in my opinion. Hell, that pays about double what the government pays me at my full time gig.

 

[Todd Humphrey]

As far as your first comment. If I had a subcontractor tell me that, they would no longer be working for me. Your work reflects on the company that sold the job and if you are charging my customers above and beyond what I quoted them, it makes me look bad.

I do not charge the customer, I charge the dealer. The dealer SELLS the customer and informs them of the charge. The trip fee (averaging $5 to $15) is added to the dealers charge to the customer. If a customer was not told of the fee, then I do not add it to the bill, the dealer eats it. Actually the sales persons eats it. We have NEVER had a customer cancel over a trip charge.

And yeah, I am perfectly fine making $125 an install for Wildblue. Why, I don't have to worry about stocking equipment or supplies. I don't have to worry about warrantying the job. He covers my insurance. He pays for all travel and training.

You are an employee!!!! You have no business saying I should not charge a trip fee, when YOU are not paying the gas for your own trips!!!!

DO i think for the most part installers are underpaid... yeah, i do. But do i think that 125 an install is too low for wildblue. No, personally, I don't. But again, it depends on who you work for and your situation. It takes me at most 2 hours to install a wildblue system(he has the dish already assembled for me).

I make about $50 an hour if you include travel time.

You statement "depends on who you work for" says it all. I work myself. ALL contractors work for themselves. They have clients who sell systems that need installation. The dealers are MY customers. I could care less what DIRECTV, DISH Network, Hughesnet or Wildblue say should be standard or what I can charge. My ONLY obligation is to MY customers. If they accept my conditions, then no one else has the right to say I charge too much. My rates and conditions do nothing to hurt any other installer. In fact a local installer I spoke with raised his rates after he heard what I charge. He now earns an extra $10 per install. For him that is about $300-$400 extra per month.
What does hurt us ALL, is when an installer fails to understand what it takes to stay in business and while they are in this business, accept contracts that drag us all down. Then they leave or go out of business opening the door for the next sucker.

I am not afraid of competition. I fully believe in market economics, but I will also believe that to help myself, I need to help others believe they are worth more. If more installers stood up and said, "NO" to some of these crappy contracts floating around the offers would change.

As an employee you have benefits that contractors do have. If you get hurt, you have some form is disability insurance. I do too, but I have to pay for that myself.

I am glad you gave steady work, there are a lot of areas that work is not as steady as you seem to have it. I work with several dealers, none of which have enough work to keep even one installer busy full time. There are times that everyone slows down.

That is the nature of contracting.

I rarely charge extra for work at a home, because the dealer pays my rate of $120/$25 (Dish and DTV installs, my WB rate is $179). This allows me to do more as part of a standard installation. I do not charge extra for attic or crawl space work, whereas some other installers do.

The ONLY thing I stand firm on is my trip charges. As gas prices go up and down, my trip charges adjust accordingly. My currant rate is for gas prices between $2.50and $2.99. Right now gas prices are at $2.70-$2.85 If he hit $2.90 to $3.10 for more than 1 month and prices are not expected to drop, then I will increase my trip charges.

Imagine that, my operating cost goes up and I pass the price to my clients. If I ask for too much, I might lose a client. That is market economics. That is good business.

 

[Jared Twomey]

just for the record, I am not an employee. I'm a subcontractor. Been getting a 1099 from day 1. I provide tools, truck, and fuel. He just pays for the equipment and cable, connectors, ect.
I could see how you'd think I was a employee as I said he pays for training and travel, I meant travel when we go to different training stuff.
When i'm working I pay for fuel. And I pay a lot, I drive a jeep that gets HORRIBLE gas mileage.

 

[Todd Humphrey]

You said he pays your insurance. If he gives you extra money to help you pay your insurance, that is one thing, but you are working under HIS insurance and(or) you receive more than 80% of your total income from his 1099 statement, and(or) he schedules your work, then you are by default an employee. As such he is required BY LAW to withhold taxes and assume all the cost and regulations of an employee.
If your relationship meets any of the above conditions, and you get hurt, you can force him to pay your expenses because he should have been paying workmans comp for you anyway.

What I do not understand is why accept the fact that the dealer is getting $179 for the install and keeping $54 for himself? The average install uses less than $15 in materials.

Don't sell yourself short. Maybe if you got paid the full $179 as you are supposed to, you can afford to lease a small PU that gets better gas mileage. I am looking at giving up my van and moving to a small diesel truck. Bio-diesel is going to making some headway in this area, and it might be worth looking into. If your business cannot save money to expand and update equipment, you will never move forward.

 

[Jared Twomey]

Don't sell yourself short. Maybe if you got paid the full $179 as you are supposed to, you can afford to lease a small PU that gets better gas mileage. I am looking at giving up my van and moving to a small diesel truck. Bio-diesel is going to making some headway in this area, and it might be worth looking into. If your business cannot save money to expand and update equipment, you will never move forward.

I'm not selling myself short. When I first got into this business I did work for a number of different retailers and referal jobs through dish. Then I got to put up with the stress of being self employed. I am still self employed and do structured wiring of new homes and small commercial stuff. But as far as the satellite side of my work goes, it is a lot easier for me to log into his scheduling system, enter the times and days i am available, and i'm done. I show up on those days and I have work to do. For me, at 125 an install, its worth it not to have to worry about anything else. I don't have to worry about any kind of chargebacks, or making sure I have the equipment I need each week. Its all there, ready to go for me.
As far as the truck goes, since I have been installing I have owned and used a Ford Cargo Van, an extended cab Dodge Dakota, a extended cab s-10, and now my jeep. I drive my jeep by choice, specially in the summer time.
And it isn't 80% of my income, in fact its probably more like 30%.

 

[Todd Humphrey]

Why, cause the guy I work for is good to his customers and doesn't nickle and dime them with all kinds of additional "hidden fees" that they weren't originally sold on.

Thanks for the explanation. The reason for my confusion, is because you said, THE GUY YOU FOR. That gave the impression that you worked for ONE GUY.

I still think your selling yourself short. Consider this. If WB stops selling in your area and shuts down the beam, you are out 30% of your income. Do you have 30% of your average monthly income times three in savings?
WB shut off the WA beam a few months back. Not expected to resume until June. Couple installers I know were wiped out. They focused 100% on WB. They gave up their other gigs to work for a couple New WB dealers. Two months later, they had zero income. You are far better off with only 30% tied up in WB, but could you afford to loose 30% until you replaced that income? If you really tried, could you save that extra money, and still put money away into IRA's or some other retirement program?

If you cannot meet these financial goals, then I do think you are selling yourself short. WB decided an install was worth $179. Even providing the materials, that dealer should be willing to pay you at least $150. It is not a matter of what you think is enough. It is a matter of what is right.

 

[Jared Twomey]

I still think your selling yourself short. Consider this. If WB stops selling in your area and shuts down the beam, you are out 30% of your income. Do you have 30% of your average monthly income times three in savings?

Actually we have been shut down since late last year. They just reopened the beam back up yesterday for this area. Since we haven't been able to do any WB i've been doing more dish, direct, ota, ect.

I always have a backup plan, thats actually why I am still installing part time, that way if I decide to leave my full time job I have something I can get back into. actually at this point, installing is just my beer and bowling money
after i install all day, i hit the lanes