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Last reply · posted in Free To Air (FTA) Discussion
I've put up three WaveFrontier T90 toroids over the past months to cover the North American FTA Ku birds. Considering the number of orbital positions involved, the use of bandstacked LNBs makes a lot of sense in terms of limiting the cost and complexity of cabling and switching. However the choices for bandstacked Ku LNBs is very limited. Until recently the only commonly available option was to salvage feeds and LNBs from Dish Network 105W and 121W SuperDishes. Then Sadoun released the KLBS1 LNBF which I evaluated a couple of months ago, here. I've been trying to decide on the final configuration for my toroid LNBs, and decided to have a shootout.

The competitors were:

1. Sadoun KLBS1 LNBF. I strip the plastic case to provide better mounting on the toroid rails. The KLBS1 has LOFs of 10750 (H) and 10100 (V), meaning H is sent from 950-1450 MHz and V is sent from 1600-2100 MHz. This unit has a lot of gain and a high output level.

2. Dish FSS LNB + 105W feed. Of the two stock SuperDish FSS feeds, the 105W version is the easier to work with. The horn mouth is small and the waveguide is set up to handle circular polarization if rotated by 45 degrees. Like all Dish FSS LNBs, the LOFs are 10750 (V) and 13850 (H), meaning V is sent from 950-1450 MHz and H is sent from 2150-1650 MHz (inverted). These LNBs have much less gain than the Sadoun units.

3. Dish FSS LNB + 121W feed. The second SuperDish feed is compromised because it had to work next to a 119W feed. The horn mouth is narrow and tall to accommodate this. The waveguide is also extended to allow physical space for both the 119 and 121 LNBs. Both the 119 and 121 feeds are cast as a single unit. Common practice is to separate these with a hacksaw.

4. Dish FSS LNB + DP feed. Given the striking similarity of the Sadoun and DishPro feeds, I couldn't help but chop a DishPro LNBF down and bolt the remaining feed to a SuperDish LNB. I wanted to see if I could improve on the original SuperDish feed performance, which isn't that inspiring.

All of these are shown in the attached pictures. The mod to couple the DP feed to a SuperDish LNB is pretty much self-explanatory. One of my toroids is centered on 97W, which has a lot of high CNR transponders to use over the H & V ranges. I chose six and for each competitor made quick CNR measurements of each. At the same time I wanted to test the benefit of using amps at the dish. There isn't a lot of cable to my test setup, but there are switches, taps and other paraphernalia in-line that make using the SuperDish LNBs a bit on the ragged edge with its low output level. So each competitor was measured with and without an amp in series. The entire signal path was the same for each test and I made the changeovers as quickly as possible. The same SuperDish LNB was used for the three feeds to prevent having that become a separate variable.

The measured CNRs are listed tabularly and are plotted in the attachments. I also included a table showing the relative performance of each combination with respect to the DP feed + FSS LNB, which overall came out on top. Finally there are a table and plot of the 'benefit' of using an amplifier for each competitor. Not surprisingly the Sadoun unit does much better without an amp. It has a very hot output compared to the Dish FSS LNB. The Dish FSS LNB showed some significant improvements with the amp.

Comparing the best amp configuration for each competitor, my DP + SuperDish LNB concoction was the overall winner. The Sadoun unit was very competitive, beating the winner by small margins on three transponders. However it was behind by larger margins on the other transponders. The stock 105W and 121W feeds finished farther back. Averaging the relative performance compared to the winner for the six transponders I calculated:

1. DP feed + FSS LNB: 0.0 dB (reference)
2. Sadoun KLBS1 LNBF: -0.5 dB
3. 105W feed + FSS LNB: -1.8 dB
4. 121W feed + FSS LNB: -3.3 dB

The above data show the importance of a good feed, as the first and last place finishers used the exact same LNB in the tests. The Sadoun is a readily available unit at a reasonable price and it performs very well. However the modified DishPro feed, which looks almost identical to the Sadoun feed, when coupled to a SuperDish LNB does outperform it. There may be some unit-to-unit variations, but quick pretesting I did with other Sadoun and Dish LNBs showed nearly identical results.

There are other factors other than CNR. I did not evaluate phase noise, nor did I look at LO frequency accuracy/stability. It should be pointed out the results are for a T90 dish; the feed matching to other Ku dishes may be different. The SuperDish parts are largely only available through eBay. The modification is very easy, but it does entail sacrificing a DishPro LNBF and you are left with the SuperDish feeds. For my purposes I plan to combine the top two units. Where I need to achieve 2 degree spacing on the same toroid, alternating the two gives just enough space to squeeze them in. I will have to slice off some small pieces of the two feedhorn mouths to get them to fit, but this is very straightforward.
14 Replies · 4216 views
P
Cadsulfide:

Thanks for your comments. The idea of using a bunch of DP34s is a great idea because that switch is certainly designed to pass the full bandstacked spectrum. In terms of other switches, I wrote a thread on modifying a WNC 4x8 and another for a Zinwell 6x8. While I used the WNCs for a few months after starting my toroid project, it rolls off quite drastically at the top end. The Zinwell 6x8s work much better. However two of the inputs are virtually useless as they appear to work only with DirecTV LNBs and receivers. Keep us posted on your expansion project when it comes to pass!
zamar23
I wrote a thread on modifying a WNC 4x8 and another for a Zinwell 6x8. While I used the WNCs for a few months after starting my toroid project, it rolls off quite drastically at the top end. The Zinwell 6x8s work much better. However two of the inputs are virtually useless as they appear to work only with DirecTV LNBs and receivers.
Could you elaborate in more details on apparent WNC switch deficiency? Point to your Zinwell switch thread? Any other suggested low cost high end switch to accommodate 3 or 4 dual LNBFs (band stacked or not) to 3 or 4 Sat Receivers?
P
Could you elaborate in more details on apparent WNC switch deficiency? Point to your Zinwell switch thread? Any other suggested low cost high end switch to accommodate 3 or 4 dual LNBFs (band stacked or not) to 3 or 4 Sat Receivers?

The WNC 4x8 works fine for normal North American Ku and C-band LNBs that output from 950-1450 MHz. This is the spec and they are not misrepresenting their product. I have a number in use for that purpose and have no plans to change them out. In fact they will pass signals much higher in frequency and when I steer my big dishes to birds with extended C-band spectra, everything also works fine.

When I started testing bandstacked LNBs on my toroids, I was initially impressed that the WNCs would pass signals to 2150 MHz. That was certainly better than any other 4x4 or 4x8 switches I had tried. I was aware the Zinwell 6x8 switches were necessarily spec'ed from 250-2150 MHz, but at that time the prices on those switches were many times that of the WNCs, so I built my switch matrix around the latter.

Later when I investigated an unrelated problem, I did testing that demonstrated I was suffering a high frequency roll-off in the WNCs (mostly above 1900 MHz) that under unusual conditions was limiting my reception. I also have tons of data establishing the frequency responses of a lot of different switches and amplifiers that I did as part of this exercise, but I made some minor procedural errors in a few cases. Until I have time to correct those, I am not comfortable with publishing incomplete or possibly marginal results. But the data were clear the WNCs were not the best choice for bandstacked LNBs.

Fortunately the Zinwell 6x8s are now much lower in price and work perfectly for this purpose. As I had published a thread on how to mod the WNC switches for +18V powering of LNBs, I published a similar thread on how to make the 'unpowered' Zinwell switches provide a similar capability:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/free-ai...ghty-mods-iii-6x8-switch-power-insertion.html

If you're considering bandstacked LNBs, by all means go with the Zinwell 6x8 switch. It's the only 4x4, 4x8 or 6x8 switch I've tested that will easily pass 2150 MHz. If you don't need anything more than 1450 MHz, I'd still recommend the WNC switch. It's much better than unpowered 4x4 switches and the best of the 4x8s I have tested. There may be other alternatives I have not investigated, but you would be on your own.
zamar23
Thanks for the heads up. :)
Elchucko
To Pendragon:

If you were to attach the FSS LNB to the Superdish feedhorn without removing the insert, how good of a job would it do for 118.7?
P
If you were to attach the FSS LNB to the Superdish feedhorn without removing the insert, how good of a job would it do for 118.7?

If you want to do 118.7 with a FSS LNB, I think there are at least three options:

1. Chop the feed off a DP or legacy LNBF and bolt the feed to a FSS LNB. I would actually pull the dielectric plate out and reinsert it to align it at the requisite 45 degree angle with respect to the LNB's vertical and horizontal probes. Otherwise you have to bolt the feed on at a 45 degree angle. This should be the best performing approach.

2. If you have a 105W feed, it can be rotated 45 degrees CW when mounted to a FSS LNB to get circular polarization (it has some flats on the waveguide). This would be the second best solution.

3. If you have a SuperDish 119/121 feed, separate the two with a hacksaw and use the 119 side as is with a FSS LNB. This should work, but the gain will be the lowest of the three options.
Peter Parker
Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum
No idea what improvements might be involved.
25 Replies · 1184 views
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N
I'm getting fabulous picture on Ch. 148 4k, but zero audio with H713. This is with a recorded show (Notre Dame game). Anyone else have this? Audio is fine on every other channel.
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jsmit86
I'm getting fabulous picture on Ch. 148 4k, but zero audio with H713. This is with a recorded show (Notre Dame game). Anyone else have this? Audio is fine on every other channel.
It's a known issue.
For a temporary fix, go into the menu, Audio, and turn Dolby Audio "OFF". You will have PCM stereo audio.

I was able to give the tech ops team some data logs so they could diagnose the problem, and they rolled me back to H708 temporarily. It fixed that issue.

They let me know that they understand what caused the issue, and it will be fixed within a few weeks in a new update.
long_time_Dish
They let me know that they understand what caused the issue, and it will be fixed within a few weeks in a new update.
Oh, you mean "soon"? :biggrin
Almighty1
It's a known issue.
For a temporary fix, go into the menu, Audio, and turn Dolby Audio "OFF". You will have PCM stereo audio.

I was able to give the tech ops team some data logs so they could diagnose the problem, and they rolled me back to H708 temporarily. It fixed that issue.

They let me know that they understand what caused the issue, and it will be fixed within a few weeks in a new update.
I guess they will be busy when lots of people start asking for rollbacks to H708 now that you mention that downgrades of software does exist because it will likely fix the OTA Single Tuner and the IR Remote problems in H710-H713.
navychop
it will likely fix the OTA Single Tuner

:popcorn
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dishstaller
it will likely fix the OTA Single Tuner
🤣

Oh....you were serious
Almighty1
So after some heavy research, it looks like the issue I mentioned with the DISH 50.0/52.0/54.0 remotes where on the 50.0/52.0 remotes, the dedicated TV Power button or on the 54.x remotes where it is using the TV button on the side followed by Power works correctly on a Hopper 3 which runs Linux but not on a Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 which are Android TV (ATV) has to do with the Android TV software itself. In all instances, the remotes had always sent out a dual RF and Infrared signal when the TV Power signal is sent from the remote. The Hopper 3 without the Plus would ignore the incoming RF power packet signal which is identified as a TV-specific toggle event, and does not trigger a system-wide standby state. The Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 as Android TV devices initially worked the same way as well up to sometime in 2025 as there was the legacy pass-through mode in the original software versions used since the Hopper Plus/Joey 4/Wireless Joey 4 launch, the receiver's underlying software essentially ignored the secondary RF payload that the 50.0/52.0/54.x remotes blasted out whenever the TV Power signal was sent. The Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 recognized it was a TV-specific command and discarded the RF packet, letting the standalone IR signal do its job on the tv.

When the software for the Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 were updated in 2025 and newer versions of the software for those Android TV (ATV) devices, it overhauled how the receiver handles remote commands to tighter integrate the Android TV environment which resulted in the software starting to treat any RF power toggle payload as a global command. As the newer software verion(s) no longer filters out the concurrent RF blast from the 50.0/52.0/54.0 remotes, the moment one sends a TV Power signal from the remote, the Hopper 3 with Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 catches that unintended RF payloadand interpets it as a command to drop the system into standby.

The fix is really simple since the Android TV (ATV) software for the Hopper Plus, Joey 4 and Wireless Joey 4 just needs to be programmed to drop or ignore the specific RF power packets associated with the TV Power signal sequence.

brittanygarden and Rick Durham
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dfergie
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU!
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Stumbled across this ... http://www.gaspricewatch.com/USGas_ZipSearch.asp
I found no local prices, although it did show stations at my location...
Added these to this post...
USA National Gas Temperature Map
State By State Gasoline Taxes
Gas Buddy

Ethanol Free Stations

5559 Replies · 460924 views
harshness
I wonder if California is getting into the Winter formula.
dishstaller
Diesel is all over the place around here. Saw it yesterday from $5.37 to $6.17...not sure what the obsession was with ending in 7
dfergie
$4.09 - $4.29, real gas $4.69...
harshness
I wonder if California is getting into the Winter formula.
It turns out I was justified in my suspicion.

Gavin Newsom somehow authorized the temporary move of the distribution date of the Winter blend to September 28th.
Foxbat
It turns out I was justified in my suspicion.

Gavin Newsom somehow authorized the temporary move of the distribution date of the Winter blend to September 28th.
Does that raise, or lower, the overall price? Our State Government has been doing everything it can to minimize the impact of the current situation and put a freeze on the State Taxes on fuel sales at the pump. That's why we're still under $4.00/gal. while across the border in Michigan it's much higher.
Bobby
Does that raise, or lower, the overall price? Our State Government has been doing everything it can to minimize the impact of the current situation and put a freeze on the State Taxes on fuel sales at the pump. That's why we're still under $4.00/gal. while across the border in Michigan it's much higher.
Winter blend is cheaper than Summer blend.
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jokeworm
Last reply · posted in What's Cooking?
Ok, I'm bored .... actually - to be more precise - I'm bored of eating the same rotation of 9 or 10 meals that are currently my "go-to" meals. My wife works the long hours - I work from home as and when i feel like it ... which means i generally do most of the cooking ... and so by default - i also make out the shopping list ...

We cook at home 5 or even 6 nights a week - but we always seem to fall back on the same old tried and tested "quick and easy but tastes ok" meals. Week in week out.

Pot Roast - mash and Peas.
Spaghetti
Chicken Pasta in cheese sauce.
Curry & rice
(these are some of mine)

Now it's not that I'm not adventurous in the kitchen ... I'll try anything once or twice ... but we all do it. Unless your name is Martha Stewart or Rachel Ray .. we all eventually fall back on our 8-10 favorite "meals"

So i thought - if we shared some of our own go-to meals with each other ... we might be able to add a few "new" ones to our own arsenal of meals.

So again - I ask you ...

What's for dinner tonight ?

Please give me something new to add to my rotation ... its our weekly shop tomorrow - so i want to pull together a few idea's and try and eat a meal each day next week that I've never had before .. or at least something that is not on my current "go-to" meal plan.

What meal do you always seem to fall back on in your house ? Maybe its something that I've never tried or not had in a while. I need inspiration !! I've got a blank shopping list in front of me - and nothing sounds good .. HELP !
4333 Replies · 331302 views
Bobby
Chili Cheesebugers, Tater Tots.
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TRG
TRG
I made shrimp parmesan with spaghetti and a salad.
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S
venison lasagna
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dishstaller
Smoked some salmon on the grill while enjoying some Blue Moon beer. Kinda cool tonight so I fired up the heaters. Here in FL, we fire up heaters once the temps get below 60 :cool As for the salmon, I seared them first, then flipped them off to the side not over the coals and brushed on some lemon pepper marinade followed by some salmon seasoning. Threw some hickory chips on the coals and then closed the vents to about 10% airflow. Yum.
TRG
TRG
Light dinner tonight before fasting for blood-work tomorrow. Salad and a half turkey sandwich. Water.
meStevo
Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Sports Section
Schedule drops tomorrow. Mandatory mini camps in June. Hall of Fame game August 6th.
120 Replies · 1953 views
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Foxbat
I guess even the patience of us laid-back Hoosiers has its limits:
rvvaquero
I guess even the patience of us laid-back Hoosiers has its limits:
Be nice to see a Cowboy headline like that.
Foxbat
Jeeez, Week 6, no lead is safe…
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b4pjoe
Be nice to see a Cowboy headline like that.
Yes the Cowboys owner needs to fire the general manager (himself), co-owner, Chief Operating Officer (COO), Executive Vice President, Director of Player Personnel, and President of AT&T Stadium (his son) and then he should jump off of a cliff. Only then can they recover.
rvvaquero
Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson had an argument about who was responsible for the dynasty building of the early 90's Cowboys.

The rest of us figured it out in about 3 years, Jerry has had over 30 years but still can't admit it. It's all he lives for, to show everyone he can put together a winner. I don't think he can. His kids only know what he taught them.
dfergie
I was a devout Cowboy fan in the Landry era, grudgingly gave Jimmy his due, since then not so much, the Jones family took care of that...
b4pjoe
Nice knowing you Brian…

IMG_0356.webp
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dfergie
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU!
Last reply · posted in What's Cooking?
Anyone making their own breakfast sausage? I've recently been trying different recipes, found some I like, some I've modified...
43 Replies · 3768 views
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navychop
Bob Evans Sage.
R
Bob Evans Sage.
I will look, but I don't think I have seen it. Owen's breakfast sausage use to be favorite, but I can't find it anymore. Jimmy Dean's country mild is OK also when I can find it.
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TRG
TRG
I will look, but I don't think I have seen it. Owen's breakfast sausage use to be favorite, but I can't find it anymore. Jimmy Dean's country mild is OK also when I can find it.
Kroger stores carry Bob Evans Sage Sausage. For me that means Smiths.

1631.webp
R
Kroger stores carry Bob Evans Sage Sausage. For me that means Smiths.

View attachment 194848
No Kroger's near me. I live in the heart of Walmart land. The only option besides Walmart is Harp's.
TRG
TRG
I live in the heart of Walmart land.
My deepest condolences.
R
My deepest condolences.
Surprisingly I moved here from the Gulf Coast due to the heat. But it has been hotter here due to the heat domes than it did down there.
S
make homemade dog food to :)
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne


Get it?


An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
68547 Replies · 2674510 views
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dishstaller
Detroit Rock City - KISS
long_time_Dish
We Built This City - Jefferson Starship
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sdfntx
Built For Comfort - Omar & the Howlers
harshness
On a Bicycle Built for Two [originally "Daisy Bell"] - Nat King Cole
long_time_Dish
The House That Built Me - Miranda Lambert
K
Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in TV Shows
Season 2 order already in hand:

'Star Trek: Starfleet Academy' Renewed for Season 2, Tatiana Maslany to Guest Star in Season 1

I've not been optimistic about this show based on what I've read so far. Seems to be aimed at a younger audience. Interesting though that Tatiana Maslany will have some sort of role.
84 Replies · 3380 views
K
I'm sure I will watch at least the first episode but I am not optimistic.
K
I'm sure I will watch at least the first episode but I am not optimistic.
Here i am over a year later and just finished season 1. Not great but not as bad as I was expecting. Did not care for the barefoot captain stuff but overall ok. Actually looking forward to see what they did for season 2.
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MikeD-C05
Here i am over a year later and just finished season 1. Not great but not as bad as I was expecting. Did not care for the barefoot captain stuff but overall ok. Actually looking forward to see what they did for season 2.
Yeah, the foot stuff was just nasty. I kept thinking of how dirty her feet would get traipsing around shoe-less. Funny, I love being shoe less at home and never wear shoes indoors in my home for long, but seeing her laying on all her furniture with her bare feet hanging out just kind of grossed me out.
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harshness
I kept thinking of how dirty her feet would get traipsing around shoe-less.
Where would this "dirt" come from? Dead skin and dandruff?
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MikeD-C05
Where would this "dirt" come from? Dead skin and dandruff?
There would still be dirt ,dust in the future I am sure. So walking around the station like she did she would get stuff on her feet. I am sure the robot vacuum is still going to miss stuff, with all those different alien species running around there.
harshness
There would still be dirt ,dust in the future I am sure.
Where is it going to come from -- specifically?

Why do you think cleaning technology won't improve in the next few hundred years? HEPA filtration was invented as part of the Manhattan Project.
MikeD-C05
Where is it going to come from -- specifically?

Why do you think cleaning technology won't improve in the next few hundred years? HEPA filtration was invented as part of the Manhattan Project.
I don't know, but I still don't like her walking through the station or the academy with out her shoes. It looks unprofessional and very "hippy like" for someone of her status and I personally don't get off to feet, so there is that. ;)
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osu1991
I don't know, but I still don't like her walking through the station or the academy with out her shoes. It looks unprofessional and very "hippy like" for someone of her status and I personally don't get off to feet, so there is that. ;)
Stay out of my office. I rarely have shoes or socks on in the office. My office and business is at home though :clapping
K
I just thought her behavior, including the bare feet thing, was disrespectful to her position.
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harshness
I don't know, but I still don't like her walking through the station or the academy with out her shoes.
That is your right.

I couldn't buy hiding behind the dirty-feet argument.
TWiT Tech Podcast Network
· posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network
0 Replies · 10 views