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B.J.
Last reply · posted in FTA Receiver / Equipment Support
I'm curious.... for any of you who have an FTP program that gives you the bitrate while a file is transferring, what speed do you get when transferring a recording from an external USB drive? I know that other people have listed speeds calculated by other transfer methods, but I'm curious about the FTP speeds.

Reason I'm curious, is that yesterday, I made a couple 10 minute recordings on the AZBOX, and then transferred them to my computer. The 10 minute recordings took more than 15 minutes to transfer. This seemed odd, so I looked at the speed that the WSFTP program reported, and it was a bit more than 16 mbps, which seemed really slow. Since the recordings were 23mbps, it made me think that perhaps something was wrong with my external hard drive, although I guess that it worked OK getting that info TO the hard drive.
It's probably just some strange issue with the linux FTP server on the Azbox, or maybe it's some limitation in general for FTP transfers, and obviously, the Azbox won't use FTP when playing or streaming video, but I just wanted to insure that it wasn't some issue with the external drive I'm using.
thanks
10 Replies · 3939 views
B.J.
My rates were both through a wifi to my laptop and through a wired network to a desktop. Both gave approximately the same results. The wifi was not the Azbox wifi though, since it was an elete, it was hard wired to my wireless router then to the laptop.
I'll play with this a bit more tomorrow.

EDIT: Just did another quick test. I set up an FTP server on my desktop, and tested the speed between laptop and desktop. Came out to be about 28.5 Mbps.
Then I tested speed from Azbox to laptop, but transferred one of the OS files, ie a file off the memory module rather than the hard disk. Speed turned out to be 29 Mbps. So it does seem like the transfer from the USB hard drive is hurting the speed.
I wonder if the fellow (I forget who it was) who replaced the module with a hard drive has tested transfer rates between PC and Azbox? Or even someone with the Premium instead of Elete? Probably all my questions would be answered if I'd search the old messages. I think I'm re-inventing the wheel here, only mine is square.
zamar23
I wonder if the fellow who replaced the module with a hard drive has tested transfer rates between PC and Azbox?
What module?

Is there any way to configure the external USB drive system (or any) settings via your AZBox UI?
WhiteBeard
I'm curious.... for any of you who have an FTP program that gives you the bitrate while a file is transferring, what speed do you get when transferring a recording from an external USB drive? I know that other people have listed speeds calculated by other transfer methods, but I'm curious about the FTP speeds.

Reason I'm curious, is that yesterday, I made a couple 10 minute recordings on the AZBOX, and then transferred them to my computer. The 10 minute recordings took more than 15 minutes to transfer. This seemed odd, so I looked at the speed that the WSFTP program reported, and it was a bit more than 16 mbps, which seemed really slow. Since the recordings were 23mbps, it made me think that perhaps something was wrong with my external hard drive, although I guess that it worked OK getting that info TO the hard drive.
It's probably just some strange issue with the linux FTP server on the Azbox, or maybe it's some limitation in general for FTP transfers, and obviously, the Azbox won't use FTP when playing or streaming video, but I just wanted to insure that it wasn't some issue with the external drive I'm using.
thanks

I'm getting about a 12 Mb file transfer using Gftp using sftp on Linux running on my 802.11g lappy. Not too bad for 11g.
knowmiddlename
I'm curious.... for any of you who have an FTP program that gives you the bitrate while a file is transferring, what speed do you get when transferring a recording from an external USB drive? I know that other people have listed speeds calculated by other transfer methods, but I'm curious about the FTP speeds.

Reason I'm curious, is that yesterday, I made a couple 10 minute recordings on the AZBOX, and then transferred them to my computer. The 10 minute recordings took more than 15 minutes to transfer. This seemed odd, so I looked at the speed that the WSFTP program reported, and it was a bit more than 16 mbps, which seemed really slow. Since the recordings were 23mbps, it made me think that perhaps something was wrong with my external hard drive, although I guess that it worked OK getting that info TO the hard drive.
It's probably just some strange issue with the linux FTP server on the Azbox, or maybe it's some limitation in general for FTP transfers, and obviously, the Azbox won't use FTP when playing or streaming video, but I just wanted to insure that it wasn't some issue with the external drive I'm using.
thanks
Most FTP client software that I've seen does not report transfer speed. FTP is generally faster than HTTP transfers, typically by 11% to 50% because it does not have the same overhead. FTP actually gains maximum transfer speed over time. The limiting factor in your case would probably be the physical layer of your LAN. Also, the AZBox is painfully slow due to limitations of processing speed and the small amount of available memory. The designers are asking this box to do a lot! The bottom line... If you have a lot of traffic going on your LAN and your transfer file size is small, expect it to take a while to upload to your computer. The main point here is that FTP inherently gains speed with larger file sizes.
B.J.
Most FTP client software that I've seen does not report transfer speed. FTP is generally faster than HTTP transfers, typically by 11% to 50% because it does not have the same overhead. FTP actually gains maximum transfer speed over time. The limiting factor in your case would probably be the physical layer of your LAN. Also, the AZBox is painfully slow due to limitations of processing speed and the small amount of available memory. The designers are asking this box to do a lot! The bottom line... If you have a lot of traffic going on your LAN and your transfer file size is small, expect it to take a while to upload to your computer. The main point here is that FTP inherently gains speed with larger file sizes.

Re FTP software, I was using WSFTP, which shows the rate during transfers, and also after the transfer says something like X bytes transferred in Y seconds. I also just used the old stopwatch method, which agreed.

The thing about FTP working better with larger file sizes, yeah, I guess that's probably true of most transfer methods, ie higher percentage going to data and less going to handshaking. Off topic a bit, but I have a weather web page, where every couple hours, I upload a bunch of gif files showing weather data from the weather station on top of my garage. The files are automatically uploaded by FTP. The funny thing is that before I "upgraded" to satellite internet, the files would transfer in about 1 minute over dialup. When I got satellite internet, the 1 minute transfer became over 8 minutes! I attribute that to extra handshaking, trying to set up the transfer with the inherent delays associated with satellite. I thought that there was a problem with respect to FTP and satellite internet, however when I did some tests comparing the transfer of many small files vs one big file, the satellite internet was 8 times faster with the big files.

I am surprised that you'd say FTP was faster than HTTP though, although perhaps there is more than one way to send data by HTTP. Reason I'm surprised, is that I could stream 40 mbps CBS HD (the old 4.2.0) through my LAN, but FTP seemed to max out at 29 mbps when I tried it yesterday. Although it just occurred to me that the 29 mbps transfer yesterday involved going through the 54 mbps wireless. I guess I should repeat that going between two of my desktop computers.

I also wonder if my specific LAN is overly complicated because several of the computers on the LAN have more than one NIC with different subnets, and the way I understand it, each time a packet is sent out, the computer has to decide which NIC to route the packets to. I keep meaning to eliminate the 2nd NIC, and put everything on the same subnet, but I have about 14 devices and my switch isn't big enough to put all the devices on one switch. I originally put all the video devices (TIVOs, ROKU, PopCornHour) on one subnet, and the regular LAN stuff on the other subnet. Anyway, it could be that my LAN is congested, but I think I demonstrated yesterday that the USB HD was responsible slowing down the transfers a lot.
knowmiddlename
You bring up a lot of interesting points. Data transfer is indeed a complicated process and one could definitely make a science project out of it. Yeah, you are right about all the variables like active FTP, passive FTP, network address translation/UDP handling, latency, the client software itself... the list seems endless... and now these newer and cheaper routers are equipped with stateful packet inspection to kill hammering (DOS) which can slow down transfers down even on the LAN side. Maybe a direct connection between the receiver and computer using a crossover cable would be a good starting point for troubleshooting.
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in SatelliteGuys Support Center
Our DNS provider is encouraging us to enable DNSSEC on our domains for added security.

I have gone ahead and enabled it, and am told it may take anywhere from 90 minutes to 24 hours for it to take effect.

Hopefully doing this does not harm the site in any way. (It shouldn't) but if it does, you will then know why and I will revert the settings.

But from what I am reading it should be ok. so just giving a warning as I have screwed up DNS stuff in the past. :D
1 Replies · 6 views
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Scott Greczkowski
Doing my checks it appears the changes have gone through... and we are still here. (Phew!)
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Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in SatelliteGuys Support Center
Due to security concerns and the fact that the Tapatalk Plugin for Xenforo is no longer being updated we have removed Tapatalk support from SatelliteGuys.

For those who were using it we recommend using our PWA App instead which is faster and does not have all the spam Tapatalk had. Below is a graphic showing how to add SatelliteGuys to your devices home screen. (While iOS is shown the process is mostly the same for Android.)

add_to_home.gif

Thanks for your understanding. :)
7 Replies · 167 views
Foxbat
Thank you, Scott, for adding years to my Life and dropping my BP a few millimeters! Money well spent…
dweber
Thank you, Scott, for adding years to my Life and dropping my BP a few millimeters! Money well spent…
What is PWA app? PWA utilities seem to be a Spanish app. I hope you are seeing this since nothing seems to be working. I will miss SatelliteGuys. Tapatalk worked well. The Siri browser doesn't seem to work well.
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Peter Parker
Thank you, Scott, for adding years to my Life and dropping my BP a few millimeters! Money well spent…
Hooray!
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Peter Parker
What is PWA app? PWA utilities seem to be a Spanish app. I hope you are seeing this since nothing seems to be working. I will miss SatelliteGuys. Tapatalk worked well. The Siri browser doesn't seem to work well.
Do you mean the safari browser?
Foxbat
What is PWA app? PWA utilities seem to be a Spanish app. I hope you are seeing this since nothing seems to be working. I will miss SatelliteGuys. Tapatalk worked well. The Siri browser doesn't seem to work well.
Actually, PWA stands for "Progressive Web Application" and is basically just saving a site's homepage to your desktop where it appears as an "App" with the rest of your smartphone's Apps.
1781162703297.webp
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Scott Greczkowski
A PWA is a custom version of SatelliteGuys which is optimized for mobile devices. While it may look like the website, its actually different so that only the files needed for mobile are sent, meaning its a much faster experience all around.

TapaTalk is essentially dead. It was written for PHP 5.4 and we are now running PHP 8.4. There have been a LOT of PHP security updates since then and since Tapatalk for Xenforo has not been updated in a long long time it is not the safest idea to keep running it.

In addition those trying to view the site on their mobile devices using a browser were getting spammed on the top of the screen for people to install TapaTalk, this ad in some cases would take up 20% of the users screen. We could get rid of that ad but we would have to pay $20 a month to get rid of it.

Screenshot 2026-06-11 085611.webp



In addition TapaTalk could and was inserting their own ads on SatelliteGuys in the app which only benefitted them, SatelliteGuys was not paid for those ads they were displaying on our site. Again we could pay to get rid of those ads.

Screenshot 2026-06-11 085641.webp


And here was the cost of the Premium Tier.

Screenshot 2026-06-11 085701.webp


Now to make matters worse Tapatalk recently announced that they are going to start charging users of the app 99 cents a month to continue using it.

Screenshot 2026-06-11 090141.webp



So soon you would be paying them each month to access SatelliteGuys via their app, again all the money going to them... and you would still see all their ads too.

Tapatalk was a great program which we run for many many years, and for a long time we DID pay for the premium tier. But now with such a small offset using it (My numbers show a total of 6 members) it wasn't work paying for any longer.

In addition Tapatalk was sold to a different owner who made lots of promises of improvements and updates but then that owner has been really radio silent since, instead they have been letting TapaTalk rot on the vine.

If you visit their support forum at https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/tapatalksupport/ you will see there is not much going on, in fact most of the support questions posted there go unanswered.

Please give the PWA a try, I was a die hard Tapatalk user myself but now only use the PWA on devices. It is a much better all around experience, with no bloatware or additional ads based on your user membership level.

I don't have an android phone so I could not make a graphic showing you how to add SatelliteGuys PWA to your phones apps or home screen. But here is a site that explains how to do it on all kinds of devices. How to Install a PWA on iOS, Android, Windows & Mac [2025 Guide]

The above link also explains PWA's better as well. :)

If Tapatalk were to update their plugins so we know we are more secure and up to date and allow us to remove the "Smart Banner" without having to pay $20 a month, we would consider adding it back. I don't even care about their ads, as if a user wants to use their app and is willing to sit through their ads in order to use that app then I am ok with it.

But hopefully that explains better why it was removed. It was not done to cut anyone off from the site. :) Please give the PWA a try.
NYDutch
A PWA is a custom version of SatelliteGuys which is optimized for mobile devices. While it may look like the website, its actually different so that only the files needed for mobile are sent, meaning its a much faster experience all around.

TapaTalk is essentially dead. It was written for PHP 5.4 and we are now running PHP 8.4. There have been a LOT of PHP security updates since then and since Tapatalk for Xenforo has not been updated in a long long time it is not the safest idea to keep running it.

In addition those trying to view the site on their mobile devices using a browser were getting spammed on the top of the screen for people to install TapaTalk, this ad in some cases would take up 20% of the users screen. We could get rid of that ad but we would have to pay $20 a month to get rid of it.

View attachment 191729


In addition TapaTalk could and was inserting their own ads on SatelliteGuys in the app which only benefitted them, SatelliteGuys was not paid for those ads they were displaying on our site. Again we could pay to get rid of those ads.

View attachment 191730

And here was the cost of the Premium Tier.

View attachment 191731

Now to make matters worse Tapatalk recently announced that they are going to start charging users of the app 99 cents a month to continue using it.

View attachment 191732


So soon you would be paying them each month to access SatelliteGuys via their app, again all the money going to them... and you would still see all their ads too.

Tapatalk was a great program which we run for many many years, and for a long time we DID pay for the premium tier. But now with such a small offset using it (My numbers show a total of 6 members) it wasn't work paying for any longer.

In addition Tapatalk was sold to a different owner who made lots of promises of improvements and updates but then that owner has been really radio silent since, instead they have been letting TapaTalk rot on the vine.

If you visit their support forum at https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/tapatalksupport/ you will see there is not much going on, in fact most of the support questions posted there go unanswered.

Please give the PWA a try, I was a die hard Tapatalk user myself but now only use the PWA on devices. It is a much better all around experience, with no bloatware or additional ads based on your user membership level.

I don't have an android phone so I could not make a graphic showing you how to add SatelliteGuys PWA to your phones apps or home screen. But here is a site that explains how to do it on all kinds of devices. How to Install a PWA on iOS, Android, Windows & Mac [2025 Guide]

The above link also explains PWA's better as well. :)

If Tapatalk were to update their plugins so we know we are more secure and up to date and allow us to remove the "Smart Banner" without having to pay $20 a month, we would consider adding it back. I don't even care about their ads, as if a user wants to use their app and is willing to sit through their ads in order to use that app then I am ok with it.

But hopefully that explains better why it was removed. It was not done to cut anyone off from the site. :) Please give the PWA a try.
I just installed the PWA on my Android phone. It was pretty easy to do, and now I'm posting this from my phone. Thanks, Scott!
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne


Get it?


An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
67104 Replies · 2662245 views
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long_time_DNC
King Of Pain - The Police
H
Haven't Got Time For The PAIN-Carly Simon
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ClarkGable
No Time - The Guess Who
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harshness
Time After Time - Cyndi Lauper
sdfntx
Right on Time - Brandi Carlile
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in SatelliteGuys Support Center
As you may have noticed we are doing a Fund Raiser for SatelliteGuys!

As many of you know I have been paying for a majority of the operation of the site out of my own pocket for awhile now. Now looking at things we have a number of renewals coming up that I could use some help with. These renewals include the license renewal for our Forum Software, Renewal of a number of our add on's the site uses, renewal of domain names etc.

I have set a goal of $400.00 - any extra that comes in will just go to fund the operations of the site. None of the money will go to me (I tried BuyMeACoffee a few months ago, and they denied me saying they do not do business with Satellite Piracy sites... which we are not... hell we host the beta programs for both DISH and DIRECTV here...)

Anyways... if you would like to help out please click the link below.


Thank you in advance. :)
18 Replies · 549 views
Scott Greczkowski
I planned on removing it today, but then my fathers car broke down and I had to drive him all around to get his stuff done. Then I had a doctors appointment after that which was annoying...

Dr asks me if I have had any changes, so I tell him something wrong with me that started a month or so ago and his reply back is, that it sucks to get old... I hate that. Why ask me. if your going to come back with a smart ass answer.

Anyays I hope to get rid of Tapatalk tomorrow. :)

And we had more people donate today, thank you! The extra money is going to future expenses since things like add ons don't expire at the same time.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU AGAIN!
T
Yeah, dr's...joint pain? Your joints are wearing out. It hurts when I do this...don't do that
comfortably_numb
Dr asks me if I have had any changes, so I tell him something wrong with me that started a month or so ago and his reply back is, that it sucks to get old

No excuse for a flippant response like that from a doctor! I'd be looking for a different one.
Scott Greczkowski
Tapatalk has been removed.

I have added a new feature which is a work in progress called "Social Feed" which displays the forums Facebook style. Its nice for people who like that, but needs work. But i have been watching this one for awhile and the author is being really responsive to suggestions and adding them. So if you have any please let me know and I can pass them along. :)
navychop
😍
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Scott Greczkowski
We got more kind donations yesterday! Again a very big thank you to everyone for your support!
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dfergie
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU!
Last reply · posted in The Sports Section
111 Replies · 2720 views
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Foxbat
Awesome pictures, Yespage! Thanks!

I caught the end of the four hour race on YouTube so I wasn't "spoiled", but got to see the exciting last lap action in the TCR division!
Y
Awesome pictures, Yespage! Thanks!

I caught the end of the four hour race on YouTube so I wasn't "spoiled", but got to see the exciting last lap action in the TCR division!
I heard on the radio, after the final pitstop, Turner Motorsport were resigned to second place. 'You're in second. Don't worry about it. First is McLaren, we aren't catching them.'
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Y
Caught up to the 500... err... k in St. Louis. What a race! Andretti Motorsport were doing very well with Ericsson and Kirkwood, meanwhile Power was moving up the grid. Veekay started cautiously. He was working the tires just right, becoming more lethal later in the stint. Rasmussen was racing likewise, not nearly as insane as he has in the past. Palou was leading the race, in a shocker to all. Caio Collet was having a wonderful ride, making Ferucci potentially sweat a bit. Rain came, rain went, rain came, rain went. Generally mild sprinkles, but enough to pause racing on an oval.

Palou would kind of send Siegel into the wall. Siegel really didn't do much wrong. As he noted, you have to turn at some point. Palou had acres of room below and Siegel might have had his ticket out of Indycar stamped. Dixon was doing the fuel thing and got busted twice by yellows, not pitting before the flag came out. Then the most critical happened... Palou ran out of gas on pit lane, effectively giving Newgarden the race lead and win. Newgarden had a very early pit, so he was able to slide in, get service and go. Meanwhile, everyone else was confused and stuck behind Palou for a bit. Once people figured what was happening, Newgarden had a major advantage of several seconds. Newgarden wouldn't look back and when it went green again, he'd hold the lead for the win.

Massive credit to Juncos Hollinger who bested Penske in getting Veekay out before Malukas in a transition that was oddly bizarre. I haven't had time to check, but I'm wondering if Veekay was about to run out of fuel or cut a tire. He was charging late in a stint, got up to fifth, and then tailed back for a few laps to 10th or 11th. It looked like it was over. Went into the pits, and after the pitting sequence was over, Veekay was well inside the top ten again. It was weird. And he charged, getting up to fourth. He made a late move on Rasmussen, but Rasmussen held his position with some great driving. In fact, there was a ton of incredible racing passing, not passing all race long. Veekay would finish 4th. A podium would have been awesome, but it is a great outcome for a guy who hopefully will get a break with a big team. We saw what Veekay could do with a Honda last season with fuel save, imagine replacing Simpson on Ganassi and having speed to go with fuel saving. His 6th at Indy and 4th at St. Louis get him up to 13th in the points standings and only 5 points outside of the top 10.

Ericsson finished second, resigned to finishing behind the current best in the world guy on a short oval. Rasmussen got the final step on the podium, a nice rebound to what has been an otherwise bad year for him, and a good reward to ECR who just extended his contract.
Y
They raced USAC cars at Daytona once. Once! People died. Aj Foyt said 'f this', and left after the first go around. AJ freaking Foyt thought it was crazy! And cars weren't nearly as fast as they are now.

I think they tried Talladega once too.
Y
LeMans qualifying on going. WEC has d9ne a great job expanding the automotive company entries. Even without Porsche, a large nunber of manufacturers.
Peter Parker
Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in Computers and Gadgets
I have had good experiences with Brave but lately I am frustrated with it.

Now when I launch the app it shows a box at the bottom asking if I want to go back to the last opened page. It is in conveniently located and I would prefer to eliminate it.

Does anyone know how to do this?

Please let's not sidetrack the discussion into an exploration of why I don't care for it or a lecture about all the wonderful aspects of the feature. I just do not care for it.
3 Replies · 66 views
b4pjoe
I don't have an Android phone so I don't know if this will apply to the Brave settings on your android device but it works on the desktop for me.

Change this setting to either startup to a different website or a new tab page. I have mine set to open to google.com instead of where I left off and it doesn't ask me at the next startup if I want to open the last opened page unless it crashed.

Screenshot 2026-06-10 at 6.46.20 PM.webp
Peter Parker
I don't have an Android phone so I don't know if this will apply to the Brave settings on your android device but it works on the desktop for me.

Change this setting to either startup to a different website or a new tab page. I have mine set to open to google.com instead of where I left off and it doesn't ask me at the next startup if I want to open the last opened page unless it crashed.

View attachment 191721
Thank you for trying to help. However thrse choices do not appear in Android. There is a setting for "New Tab Pages" that is similar but does not include your choice. I have tried all of the existing entries with no success
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Juan
Something like this maybe


Option 2: Set a custom Home button URL
  1. Click the menu icon in the top-right corner and select Settings.
  2. Click on Appearance in the left sidebar.
  3. Toggle on the Show home button switch.
  4. Under the home button settings, select the option to Enter custom web address and type in your preferred website. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
BlackHitachi
Supporting Founder
Last reply · posted in Movie Talk
Since the Reds have there thread we should too!

Last watched Nine inch Nails
Next 3:10 to Yuma
5346 Replies · 509283 views
osu1991
Rooster Cogburn.

Keep forgetting the free movies on youtube are ad free with my premium subscription.
dfergie
Rooster Cogburn.

Keep forgetting the free movies on youtube are ad free with my premium subscription.
There are some really good movies on youtube.
Saving Private Ryan 4k, Dolby Atmos...
harshness
Saving Private Ryan 4k, Dolby Atmos...
These are severely limited. Getting better than stereo audio is improving, but still has a long way to go.
dfergie
These are severely limited. Getting better than stereo audio is improving, but still has a long way to go.
I went with my 4k disc after checking out that version.
osu1991

View: https://youtu.be/I68627xyDPA?is=gUZB0Yv_08pE0DR3


Tonight revisiting one of my favorites. Ranks up there with Star Wars, Raiders of the Lost Ark and Hunt For Red October.
dfergie
Watching Monterey Pop, been awhile, had the DVD, but probably lost in the fire 10.5 years ago. HBOmax
"MysteryMan"
813WnPwdB3L._SX342_.webp
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S
· posted in FTA Manuals Section
Looking for a manual. Want to do some radio astronomy with it. Realize it's old but, since it's not for tv use don't need any decoders, just the RF section.
0 Replies · 16 views