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updatelee
Last reply · posted in Free To Air (FTA) Discussion
ok im trying to figure the math out in my head for usals calculations and I had a thought that im not sure is correct or not.

primefocus polar mounts are quite simple, you adjust the angle on only one axis to track the entire arc, its simple, the dish is on the same angle as the polar mounts axis, at least I beleive it is.

now diseqc motor's are more complicated, you adjust the angle of the motor's shaft, which is bent, and the angle the dish is on, and remember they are offset too so there is another angle.

then I got thinking, is the shaft on the motor bent at an angle because the dish is offset ? ie if the dish is 24deg offset, is the arm on the motor bent at -24deg to offset that so the motor tracs the arc just like a polar mount ? this is assuming you also set the dish so its in the same angle as the motor, just like a polar mount

is my thinking correct ? because it sure as hell would make my calculations 100x easier !

second question, if this is the case... there is a problem as not all dish's use the same offset angle. fortec for example uses everything from 24.62 to 22.75, winegard just reports theirs as 24deg or this known to everyone and new to me ? wouldnt be the first time lol. you just tilt the dish a little up to compinsate ?
20 Replies · 2854 views
updatelee
How do you calculate your declination? Wiki sais declination is like latitude, degrees from the equator.
B.J.
How do you calculate your declination? Wiki sais declination is like latitude, degrees from the equator.
Problem with declination is that it is different for every satellite. It's calculated by an arctan of your distance above equator over distance to the sat in the equatorial plane. Your distance above the equator is basically the radius of the earth times the sin of your latitude, however the distance to the sat changes with the sat's angle away from your true south. To the south, it's the radius of the geostationary orbit radius, ie 26,200 miles minus your distance from the polar axis, (ie the earth's radius times the cosine of the latitude). At the extreme west, it's pretty close to the radius of the geostationary orbit radius, although not quite since you can't see a sat at 90 deg away from your longitude, so you need to pick an extreme sat you can see, and do some trig to calculate it's distance. In between, you need to do some trig and/or a bunch of a^2+b^2=c^2 things to figure out the distance to the sat. Of course, it's a lot easier if you use matrix math, but it's been about 45 years since I've done much of that, so I just use classical brute force things, sitting down with a piece of paper, drawing a lot of angles, with tangents and signs and a, b, and c dimensions falling out of my brain.

The conventional declination that you find on most charts is just the declination to a south sat, however that tends to make your tracking off by ~0.6 deg at the extremes. The so called modified declination method uses the declination of your western most sat, and you correct for the declination of the southern sat by tilting the motor rotation axis to the south by the 0.6 deg difference, and this gives results that are very close to perfect tracking, probably close to a couple hundredths of a degree.

From what I can see, it seems like the official USALS calculation of the USALS motor angle does seem to use the modified declination method, even though most motor manuals tell you to use the conventional south sat declination when setting up the motor.
P
How do you calculate your declination? Wiki sais declination is like latitude, degrees from the equator.

That is a different sense of declination.

If one sets the polar angle of the motor to match the latitude, the dish will point perpendicular to the earth's axis of rotation over the arc. Unless you are at the equator, this will point above or below the Clarke Belt, depending on whether you are in the northern or southern hemisphere. If you lower the elevation of the dish on the motor axis to properly hit the true south satellite, the tracking will get worse the farther you deviate. This lowering is often referred to as the 'declination angle'.

A long time ago someone noticed that by applying a small offset to one's latitude to set the polar angle on the mount (sometimes called the 'polar axis tilt') and making a corresponding adjustment to the declination angle, one could track the arc extremely accurately. The fit is perfect at a few points, but for most latitudes this combination can theoretically get down to errors on the order of 0.01 degrees. This is the part ignored by USALS. In writing this, I believe I have accused USALS several times of assuming the declination angle was zero. I should have said the polar axis tilt instead.
P
From what I can see, it seems like the official USALS calculation of the USALS motor angle does seem to use the modified declination method, even though most motor manuals tell you to use the conventional south sat declination when setting up the motor.

We covered this fairly extensively in last year's USALS Notebook thread. USALS does not use the modified declination method and the official calculations make substantial errors near the horizon because of this. As the 'polar axis tilt' angle is arbitrary and depends on one's latitude, they would have to explicitly account for it in their calculations, which they do not. It does not appear they use a constant offset either, which could cause even more problems for those at the equator or at the higher latitudes.
B.J.
We covered this fairly extensively in last year's USALS Notebook thread. USALS does not use the modified declination method and the official calculations make substantial errors near the horizon because of this. As the 'polar axis tilt' angle is arbitrary and depends on one's latitude, they would have to explicitly account for it in their calculations, which they do not. It does not appear they use a constant offset either, which could cause even more problems for those at the equator or at the higher latitudes.

I remember having that discussion. I thought that we came to to the opposite conclusion. I do remember that I discovered an error in my program based on that discussion. I thought that I did all my calculations based on the tilt, and they were pretty close, whereas if they didn't use the tilt they would be further off. Now I'm going to have to both go back and read that thread again, and also refresh my memory with respect to how I did my calculations. Not too difficult without the tilt, but it really had my head spinning trying to incorporate the tilt (45 years ago I wouldn't have had any problems, but after collecting social security for a few years, your brain slows down a bit).
B.J.
Thanks for resurrecting the old notebook thread. Saved searching. I also managed to find my old excel spreadsheet that I used to do my version of the calculation. Not easy to follow what I did, but I *THINK* that I first calculated the X,Y,Z of the sat in earth centered coordinates, then did a translation in Y and Z to a parallel coordinate system located at my location, then did a rotation around the X axis to get my 0.7 deg tilt, again calculating the X,Y,Z of the sat in that coordinate system. Then did an arctan of the new X,Y to get the USALS angle.
At least that's what I THINK that's what I did.

Whatever I did, the results are very close to your results, after I corrected my original errors. What I had NOT remembered was that the results were different from the official GAAPS USALS angles, which I think was your original reason for starting the thread, and they seem to be different whether you use the tilt angle or don't use the tilt angle. So I'm not sure how they've calculated the angles.
P
Of course it's impossible for us outsiders to know what the official USALS algorithm actually does, because to my knowledge it has not been published in the open literature. If they had done that we would be able to identify their error and presumably have them correct it. It would have also saved a lot of brain damage for receiver and software app developers, many of whom got the calculations wrong in a different manner.

What I did notice when comparing the deviations from a precise calculation was that the USALS errors fairly closely tracked the error caused by assuming the angle between the true south satellite and the desired satellite target (from the dish's perspective) is the motor angle. This approximation is fairly close at small to moderate motor angles, but breaks down at larger ones. I can see them wanting to make this approximation as calculating the inner product of these two vectors is child's play. But the approximation is such that one can run into meaningful pointing inaccuracies very easily.
Former member 208119
Last reply · posted in SiriusXM Satellite Radio
My year was almost up and we got the new bill for a year of service for $ 360.00 insane sat radio is becoming like cable!!! i logged into my acct and hopped onto chat and told the rep that i wanted to cancel. she understood my concern and went quiet for a few minutes. i figured that she was canceling my service. she comes back and said that she seen that i have been a sub since 07 and then offers me the same package for a year for 120.00 with taxes and fee's!!! i grabbed it. after almost having a stroke :biggrin
237 Replies · 10976 views
B
What i noticed with my last renewal XM is now billing me $4.99 monthly instead of one time yearly payment.
Jimbo
What i noticed with my last renewal XM is now billing me $.99 monthly instead of one time yearly payment.
Did you accidentally get on the wrong plan ?
I still do the once a year plans.
B
Did you accidentally get on the wrong plan ?
I still do the once a year plans.
I have to think maybe more people dont keep track of the monthly XM bill. Every time i renew i put a reminder on my calendar week before its time to renew. My wife told me the other day not to renew her and then i told her you are not going to be able to listen to XM at home. Then she changed her mind...!!
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TRG
TRG
I have to think maybe more people dont keep track of the monthly XM bill. Every time i renew i put a reminder on my calendar week before its time to renew. My wife told me the other day not to renew her and then i told her you are not going to be able to listen to XM at home. Then she changed her mind...!!
I get an e-mail every month reminding me that X amount will be charged to my credit card. If I see it go up I get on chat or pick up the phone. But I also remember that my year is up in December.
B
I get an e-mail every month reminding me that X amount will be charged to my credit card. If I see it go up I get on chat or pick up the phone. But I also remember that my year is up in December.
yea i don't understand WHY, like you I get a notice each month. Mine is also up in December.
Jimbo
yea i don't understand WHY, like you I get a notice each month. Mine is also up in December.
You get an email every month to let you know they are billing you for the next month.
Foxbat
Mrs. Foxbat reminded me it's that time of the year to do the Cancel Tango💃🏽

The A.I. agent appears to be better than in the past. It got to the acceptable price quicker than previous years, no human operator involved. $5/mo and I still have over $50 in SiriusXM credit from my FordPartner benefits.
Scott Greczkowski
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU! Cutting Edge
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Sometimes a thread gets so many posts in it that is can cause issues for the server so that why today we introduce The Song Name Game Part 3!

So let the game continue!

The last song was added by Bobby who posted...

One Meat Ball - Andrews Sisters

CONTINUE ON AND HAVE FUN! WELCOME HOME TO SATELLITEGUYS.US!

Here are the original rules for the game as posted by WebbyDude back in 2006. http://www.satelliteguys.us/threads/68645-Song-Name-Game

Just name a song title and the band who performed it. The next person does the same thing, but needs to list a song title or band name which includes a word from the previous entry. Pick songs from any genre.

Example:

Long Live Rock and Roll -- Rainbow

Rainbow in the Dark -- Dio

Another example:

Ride the Lightning -- Metallica

Lightning Strikes -- Ozzy Osbourne


Get it?


An additional note: we all know that song titles, sometimes, use profane words. Because this is a family friendly website it is advised that you clean up that title up a bit. This is accomplished by using something like sh!t instead of the real word. Thanks....
68527 Replies · 2672582 views
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dishstaller
Can't You See - Marshall Tucker Band
sdfntx
See You in September - The Happenings
long_time_Dish
You Look Like You Love Me - Ella Langley
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dishstaller
See Me Feel Me - The Who
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long_time_Dish
Take It Easy On Me - Little River Band
Peter Parker
Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in DISH Network Support Forum
No idea what improvements might be involved.
19 Replies · 803 views
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bookworm370
Has anyone noticed an FF stutter with 713? I used to be able to hit FF a few times and skip smoothly. After 713 (maybe 712), when I skip forward, there is a definite stutter for as many times as I have pressed FF.

Can anyone check on this and report back? Recorded programs and then press skip forward a few times to see if it's smooth? Normally, it just jumps to the right place after the skips.
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N
I'm getting fabulous picture on Ch. 148 4k, but zero audio with H713. This is with a recorded show (Notre Dame game). Anyone else have this? Audio is fine on every other channel.
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R
Has anyone noticed an FF stutter with 713? I used to be able to hit FF a few times and skip smoothly. After 713 (maybe 712), when I skip forward, there is a definite stutter for as many times as I have pressed FF.

Can anyone check on this and report back? Recorded programs and then press skip forward a few times to see if it's smooth? Normally, it just jumps to the right place after the skips.
My wife mentioned that her remote is acting strange this morning. She hit FF and it went to 15x FF.
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Bobby
I'm getting fabulous picture on Ch. 148 4k, but zero audio with H713. This is with a recorded show (Notre Dame game). Anyone else have this? Audio is fine on every other channel.
This has been an ongoing issue. A fix is coming, probably in the next software version.
Foxbat
Wife bought me a t-shirt that has "have you tried turning it off and on again?"
Here's the one I need:
1792365258110.webp
dishstaller
Here's the one I need:
Just ordered one....that's great.
dfergie
Staff member HERE TO HELP YOU!
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
Stumbled across this ... http://www.gaspricewatch.com/USGas_ZipSearch.asp
I found no local prices, although it did show stations at my location...
Added these to this post...
USA National Gas Temperature Map
State By State Gasoline Taxes
Gas Buddy

Ethanol Free Stations

5552 Replies · 460613 views
Bobby
Regular$5.999​
Premium$6.399​
Diesel$7.999​
at Costco, Rohnert Park.​
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harshness
I wonder if California is getting into the Winter formula.
dishstaller
Regular$5.999​
Premium$6.399​
Odd that out there, Prem is only 40 cents higher. Here it's a full dollar more.

Last night it was about $4.17 gas, $6,19 diesel.
harshness
Odd that out there, Prem is only 40 cents higher. Here it's a full dollar more.
On the West Coast, a 40-cent differential is common. It used to be 30 cents before the prices rose above $3.

A "full dollar more" sounds like it may be boat gas (non-alcoholic), which is a whole different discussion.
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Foxbat
Here in Indiana, the difference between Regular and Premium is usually a dollar, but some charge even more:
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dishstaller
A "full dollar more" sounds like it may be boat gas (non-alcoholic),
Both non-ethanol and prem run about the same....buck more. When we were up in TN it was a buck more up there as well.
jokeworm
Last reply · posted in What's Cooking?
Ok, I'm bored .... actually - to be more precise - I'm bored of eating the same rotation of 9 or 10 meals that are currently my "go-to" meals. My wife works the long hours - I work from home as and when i feel like it ... which means i generally do most of the cooking ... and so by default - i also make out the shopping list ...

We cook at home 5 or even 6 nights a week - but we always seem to fall back on the same old tried and tested "quick and easy but tastes ok" meals. Week in week out.

Pot Roast - mash and Peas.
Spaghetti
Chicken Pasta in cheese sauce.
Curry & rice
(these are some of mine)

Now it's not that I'm not adventurous in the kitchen ... I'll try anything once or twice ... but we all do it. Unless your name is Martha Stewart or Rachel Ray .. we all eventually fall back on our 8-10 favorite "meals"

So i thought - if we shared some of our own go-to meals with each other ... we might be able to add a few "new" ones to our own arsenal of meals.

So again - I ask you ...

What's for dinner tonight ?

Please give me something new to add to my rotation ... its our weekly shop tomorrow - so i want to pull together a few idea's and try and eat a meal each day next week that I've never had before .. or at least something that is not on my current "go-to" meal plan.

What meal do you always seem to fall back on in your house ? Maybe its something that I've never tried or not had in a while. I need inspiration !! I've got a blank shopping list in front of me - and nothing sounds good .. HELP !
4332 Replies · 331150 views
TRG
TRG
Beef and vegetable stew with buttermilk biscuits. Water.
It seemed appropriate on an unusually cold and wet evening in New Mexico.
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Bobby
Chili Cheesebugers, Tater Tots.
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TRG
TRG
I made shrimp parmesan with spaghetti and a salad.
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S
venison lasagna
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dishstaller
Smoked some salmon on the grill while enjoying some Blue Moon beer. Kinda cool tonight so I fired up the heaters. Here in FL, we fire up heaters once the temps get below 60 :cool As for the salmon, I seared them first, then flipped them off to the side not over the coals and brushed on some lemon pepper marinade followed by some salmon seasoning. Threw some hickory chips on the coals and then closed the vents to about 10% airflow. Yum.
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osu1991
Pub Member / Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club

The number-one US state for EV growth, according to the June 22 Yardi report?
Oklahoma.


:eek


It has no ZEV mandates and "minimal" incentives, Yardi says, but also has cheap electricity, high multi-car household rates (so, for example, a non-Lightning Ford F-150 pulls their trailers), and a consumer base willing to switch.
112 Replies · 901 views
navychop
Servant's problem.
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meStevo

Never realized that Tesla is losing to BYD at manufacturing too, which IMO is Tesla's biggest accomplishment and area of innovation. Nice writeup about the state of play and how we got here though. I have no faith that we're moving any productive direction though sadly, most changes and efforts feel reactionary rather than rooted in making use of the time being bought by tariffs, with few exceptions.

So: how are the cars so cheap, and what is being cut to get there? The best public accounting comes from the Rhodium Group, which compared BYD, Geely, and Leapmotor against Tesla's Chinese operation, a fair comparison because it removes labor costs and shipping from the equation entirely. Their estimate is that BYD builds a car for about $4,700 less than Tesla builds a Model 3 in Shanghai, roughly 15 percent of the Model 3's price. The breakdown is the interesting part. Direct government grants account for about $292 per vehicle, which is 5 percent of the gap. The biggest single factor is vertical integration: BYD makes about 80 percent of its top-tier components in-house, against 37 percent for Tesla, and that eliminates roughly $2,369 per vehicle in supplier markups. Lower overhead, meaning cheaper engineering talent and administrative cost spread across enormous volume, accounts for another $1,719. And BYD pays its suppliers on 155-day terms, against Tesla's 60, which is worth about $214 per car in float. When people say the Chinese advantage is subsidies, the per-vehicle number says otherwise. When people say it is slave wages, the Tesla Shanghai comparison says otherwise too. The advantage is mostly that BYD decided, twenty years ago, to make its own batteries, its own motors, its own power electronics, and its own semiconductors, and Western automakers decided the opposite.​
harshness
The EV company to watch out for is SAIC. They seem likely to take over Government Motors at some point.

GM originally struck a JV deal with SAIC to gain access to China. Now SAIC has taken China back with the substantial library of technology GM shared and they're looking to export to Mexico, South America, the Middle East, and Asia-Pacific.
osu1991
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TWiT Tech Podcast Network
· posted in TWiT Tech Podcast Network
0 Replies · 17 views
Ham Radio 2.0
· posted in Ham Radio 2.0
0 Replies · 13 views
Ramy
Supporting Founder
Last reply · posted in The Sports Section
Really excited for this season with Kentucky having a new coach and some really exciting recruits. Probably won't last long, but here's hoping this season is great.
148 Replies · 1741 views
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Foxbat
They ought to have fun with this… :devilish
osu1991
They ought to have fun with this… :devilish
Was thinking same thing. It should be a good week for sec shorts and roll call
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R
A lot of upsets yesterday, but my LSU Tigers won.
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Foxbat
Best fan sign I saw during the ND-BYU game: "Bear ate your Lucky Charms!" (Bear being the Cougars' QB). I was going to suggest, "Have you or your team been involved in a Carr crash?"
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meStevo
Lifetime Supporter
Last reply · posted in The Chit Chat Club
A continuation of a thread from the pub, just general discussion of AI.

Brief 60 minute clip about next gem autonomous fighters - not remote controlled, but rather collaborating with controllers and aircraft in the theater.


View: https://youtu.be/DRm0mbp_n1k


We've literally got a movie already about this ;)


View: https://youtu.be/a2PW7a9ViDc
67 Replies · 1145 views
meStevo
Agreed, it mostly regurgitates known solutions. That's the point. Nobody needs an innovative fix for a driver error or a creative way to format a report. Let it handle the solved problems so people can spend their time on the ones that aren't.
harshness
Agreed, it mostly regurgitates known solutions. That's the point.
That's the point at which innovation ends, and there's no longer any point to software engineering other than swatting bugs that result from misapplication.
meStevo
That's the point at which innovation ends, and there's no longer any point to software engineering other than swatting bugs that result from misapplication.

Addressed by what you didn't quote. This cycle is as old as computing: compilers, libraries, frameworks each automated the tedious part, and the human work moved up a level. Innovation didn't end; it shifted. And people still make new compilers, libraries or frameworks.

Nobody's forced to hand anything off. Anyone who wants to keep doing it by hand still can, and people who couldn't do it at all now can.
harshness
... and people who couldn't do it at all now can.
Misapplication isn't something that the casual coder can identify. They can only discover, the hard way, that it doesn't work at some point.
meStevo
Misapplication isn't something that the casual coder can identify. They can only discover, the hard way, that it doesn't work at some point.
You're not wrong, but that's part of learning. Whether from others or our own mistakes, we've all learned that lesson one way or another.
harshness
Whether from others or our own mistakes, we've all learned that lesson one way or another.
I'm not sure that the school of hard knocks is the quickest or surest education to find your way.

There are many examples in the headlines of people getting burned multiple times and not wavering in their pursuit of stupidity.
meStevo
I'm not sure that the school of hard knocks is the quickest or surest education to find your way.

Good thing not everyone will have to learn the hard way then. The same tools can explain why something broke.

There are many examples in the headlines of people getting burned multiple times and not wavering in their pursuit of stupidity.

This is true of literally anything, though.

Happy to agree to disagree, but I'm already enjoying the dividends personally and helping others at work and at home do the same.
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dishstaller
Been reading this thread but not commenting much, primarily because there is so much "news" out there on this topic and it is hard to tell what is real and what is theater.
My biggest problem with AI is that these agents are taught...not necessarily programmed but taught. Well, there's an old saying "garbage in/garbage out". I remember a Joe Rogan show a while back when he had Elon Musk on and they talked about AI and Elon said one of the AIs (can't remember which one, sorry) was asked which was worse, Thermonuclear War or mis-gendering Kaitlyn Jenner and it came back with the answer that mis-gendering was worse. Now forget the politics involved with all the gender stuff we have been subjected to the past few years.....to say that mis-gendering is worse than the killing of hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of human beings.....Kaitlyn Jenner included.....is simply insane not to mention incredibly dangerous.
meStevo
Been reading this thread but not commenting much, primarily because there is so much "news" out there on this topic and it is hard to tell what is real and what is theater.
My biggest problem with AI is that these agents are taught...not necessarily programmed but taught. Well, there's an old saying "garbage in/garbage out". I remember a Joe Rogan show a while back when he had Elon Musk on and they talked about AI and Elon said one of the AIs (can't remember which one, sorry) was asked which was worse, Thermonuclear War or mis-gendering Kaitlyn Jenner and it came back with the answer that mis-gendering was worse. Now forget the politics involved with all the gender stuff we have been subjected to the past few years.....to say that mis-gendering is worse than the killing of hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of human beings.....Kaitlyn Jenner included.....is simply insane not to mention incredibly dangerous.

Agents need appropriate context to make what would be understood as the correct read in a situation like that, and that Gemini answer was a clear miss on that front.

That said, we've also seen Musk (and/or his team) put his thumb on the scale (or just release a very poor product) with his own deployed AI since:


In the end, it's all a tool. Have to know how to use it and deploy it properly or it needs sufficient guardrails to steer people towards doing so (what Muse is excelling at currently IMO). I'm routinely interacting with several agents a day operating various processes locally and in services I use, and there are numerous others silently spun up to perform actions or satisfy requests from my prompts.

Related to earlier discussion in the thread on leveraging local inference: this kind of analysis happening behind the scenes is something everyone will have built into Windows, IMO. Most people won't see all of this, just the results, unless they want to dig into how the fix was chosen. Stuff like this will be standard as agents get local system access baked in, and more of the inference itself moves on-device.

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T
Good thing not everyone will have to learn the hard way then. The same tools can explain why something broke.



This is true of literally anything, though.

Happy to agree to disagree, but I'm already enjoying the dividends personally and helping others at work and at home do the same.
You invested in datacenters?
meStevo
You invested in datacenters?


Though, I do have stocks in my portfolio that benefit from data centers.