362 is here

Ahhhh, another physical media fan... :)
Only problem is where I lived before being a apartment, there was lack of physical floor space so I don't have the shelves and storage racks among other things like other people do. I mean you wouldn't believe what I used as the table of my 43" Pioneer HD Plasma TV which is already on it's own stand that I have had since 2002 back then, one one side was my two stacks of A/V separate components which was like 6 components on each side including Proceed (baby Mark Levinson) Amp and Pre-amp. On the other side was m 27" Sony XBR TV stand also with A/V separate components and to make sure it's leveled, I used books on each side. LOL
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Everything is fine with H362 with the exception of 2 recordings, so I'll describe the issue with visuals... All times are Pacific Daylight Savings Time (GMT -700) and I have already did a power cord reset with the same exact results.

This one #1 was recorded on H358 but did not watch it until H362, before watching it, the info screen did show 1 hour and 30 minutes remaining but this is after watching it, the actual recording is 1 hour and 30 minutes as shown on the right hand side but the left side sure shows a incorrect remaining time:
View attachment 165202


This one #2 was recorded on H362 before watching it, the info screen did show 1 hour and 30 minutes remaining but this is after watching it, the actual recording is 1 hour and 30 minutes as shown on the right hand side but the left side sure shows a incorrect remaining time:
View attachment 165203

So anyways, the problem is the playback which appears to be okay if I just watched, the replay seems to work but if I try skipping and I had only tried the first 20 minutes, what would happen is it will skip forward but at some point, it will actually go back to somewhere a few minutes before I started the original skip/forward. So for example, I can be at 5 minutes and it will show 7 minutes fine but then it skips back to the 2 minute mark and forward from there.

When I pause the playback, it doesn't show the current position either like it normally does as both recordings show something similar to this:
View attachment 165204

If I selected Star Over in any of the recordings and immediately pause it as fast as I can do it, it will say 620 hours remaining.

Josh.M - I discovered another one (I am behind in viewing recordings so only will see them when I view the recordings) from August 21, 2023 Pacific Daylight Savings Time which was recorded under 358 that had the same symptoms as above when playing back on 362, this one is on a different channel, different title and the recording is 1 hour instead of 1 hour and 30 minutes but the Hopper 3 will still think the recording is actually 519+ hours and the skip does not work and the current view progress shows 1hr at the end but won't show the current position because somewhere else, it is seeing the recording with the 519+ hours in length. So the same issue might have existed if the playback was done in 358. Not sure what is causing the Hopper 3 to only see some recordings on different channels with lengths that are magnitudes more than the actual recording itself. If you need the receiver number, I can provide it as I will leave the mentioned recordings on the Hopper 3 in case it is needed to help with the diagnosis.
1695156343817.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Thanks - I was able to duplicate it in our lab and we're opening it up as a new defect today. Appreciate your report!
Thanks for reporting it as well. One thing that is uncertain is I don't know if that issue existed before 358 or not but I'll stick to the not. There is another issue I have noticed with all software versions, basically the internal HDD of the Hopper 3 is
like 75% or 80% full as a reference point and I do have the Hopper nightly update time for 1:00AM PST but because I have timers, what happens is that if I don't restart sometime between 24 and 48 hours, the Hopper 3 recordings will stop because is complaining the HDD is full and deleting or moving recordings to the EHDD doesn't help. If I reboot the Hopper 3, then everything works fine with recordings and such and ofcourse the same problem happens 24 and 48 hours. So what I do now as a remedy is at 24 hours or the soonest that there is no timers at or a little bit after 24 hours, I just reboot it using the menu option and the problem doesn't show up. Not sure if that is even something that can be fixed. After rebooting, using the 75% or 80%, the HDD space used after a few minutes will actually go down and show like 70% instead of 75% and 75% instead of 80% for example.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Thanks for reporting it as well. One thing that is uncertain is I don't know if that issue existed before 358 or not but I'll stick to the not. There is another issue I have noticed with all software versions, basically the internal HDD of the Hopper 3 is
like 75% or 80% full as a reference point and I do have the Hopper nightly update time for 1:00AM PST but because I have timers, what happens is that if I don't restart sometime between 24 and 48 hours, the Hopper 3 recordings will stop because is complaining the HDD is full and deleting or moving recordings to the EHDD doesn't help. If I reboot the Hopper 3, then everything works fine with recordings and such and ofcourse the same problem happens 24 and 48 hours. So what I do now as a remedy is at 24 hours or the soonest that there is no timers at or a little bit after 24 hours, I just reboot it using the menu option and the problem doesn't show up. Not sure if that is even something that can be fixed. After rebooting, using the 75% or 80%, the HDD space used after a few minutes will actually go down and show like 70% instead of 75% and 75% instead of 80% for example.
Ok,

I'll chime in again.

Another little-known factoid. The internal HDD will not decrement its usage by just deleting random recordings. The usage stats are based on several factors, with one big one being the age of the OLDEST recording on the internal drive.

Take a look at the date and look for the record(ings) that were recorded the longest ago. If you delete them, you will notice, as if by magic again, that the internal HD utilization number will drop almost instantly once you press delete.

It seems that someone was too conservative in calculating how much room would be left, and they included the total size of the recording and the Oldest to most current dates in the calculation. As for what reason, considering how the file system handles it, is anyone's guess.

My guess is the way that the Hopper handles On Demand from DVR events. They say that the internal HDD is partitioned into two 1TB partitions. My guess is that it is now, and it's a software partition scheme, as it would be a total waste of resources considering how much On Demand space is used versus DVR. However, some methods of calculating the size based on a virtual 1TB size needed to be invented. Poorly, IMHO, but that's how they do it.

But if you delete the oldest of a series or oldest (e.g., the oldest show of The Blacklist (if that's the oldest show on the internal drive), then the total space will drop by at least a week's worth of recording space.

Also, if you move those shows off to an EHD, the result is not instantaneous like deletion is, but a reboot will force the receiver to reindex the internal drive and give you another number.

So if it says 80% full, it's not. It's 80% as if it was recording your normal shows regularly, from the oldest to the most current.

I know that sounds like total mush and madness, and I agree, it is. But that is the way it works! My utilization is up right now because we have some of the NBC Chicago Med/PD/Fire shows from last season we haven't watched yet. When we start to watch them, and I start to delete them, you can bet the number will go down.

Yes, Another little factoid that no one seems to know about, even inside DISH support. But I found out after years of frustration and trial and error and just me being plain stubborn!

BW
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Ok,

I'll chime in again.

Another little-known factoid. The internal HDD will not decrement its usage by just deleting random recordings. The usage stats are based on several factors, with one big one being the age of the OLDEST recording on the internal drive.

Take a look at the date and look for the record(ings) that were recorded the longest ago. If you delete them, you will notice, as if by magic again, that the internal HD utilization number will drop almost instantly once you press delete.

It seems that someone was too conservative in calculating how much room would be left, and they included the total size of the recording and the Oldest to most current dates in the calculation. As for what reason, considering how the file system handles it, is anyone's guess.

My guess is the way that the Hopper handles On Demand from DVR events. They say that the internal HDD is partitioned into two 1TB partitions. My guess is that it is now, and it's a software partition scheme, as it would be a total waste of resources considering how much On Demand space is used versus DVR. However, some methods of calculating the size based on a virtual 1TB size needed to be invented. Poorly, IMHO, but that's how they do it.

But if you delete the oldest of a series or oldest (e.g., the oldest show of The Blacklist (if that's the oldest show on the internal drive), then the total space will drop by at least a week's worth of recording space.

Also, if you move those shows off to an EHD, the result is not instantaneous like deletion is, but a reboot will force the receiver to reindex the internal drive and give you another number.

So if it says 80% full, it's not. It's 80% as if it was recording your normal shows regularly, from the oldest to the most current.

I know that sounds like total mush and madness, and I agree, it is. But that is the way it works! My utilization is up right now because we have some of the NBC Chicago Med/PD/Fire shows from last season we haven't watched yet. When we start to watch them, and I start to delete them, you can bet the number will go down.

Yes, Another little factoid that no one seems to know about, even inside DISH support. But I found out after years of frustration and trial and error and just me being plain stubborn!

BW
Wow, that's an incredibly stupid way to manage the internal HDD diskspace percentage...
 
Wow, that's an incredibly stupid way to manage the internal HDD diskspace percentage...
Yup, but honestly, I've seen worse! Have you ever looked at the original DOS file system manager? Just a chain of linked lists. Break one of them, and it all crashed down. But all you lost was a great big giant floppy disk! LOL

But try it: pick an old recording, watch it, take a look at the percentage, and then use the recall/delete function to just press the button to delete it. You'll see the free disk space go up. Or the used space goes down depending on how you look at it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Ok,

I'll chime in again.

Another little-known factoid. The internal HDD will not decrement its usage by just deleting random recordings. The usage stats are based on several factors, with one big one being the age of the OLDEST recording on the internal drive.

Take a look at the date and look for the record(ings) that were recorded the longest ago. If you delete them, you will notice, as if by magic again, that the internal HD utilization number will drop almost instantly once you press delete.

It seems that someone was too conservative in calculating how much room would be left, and they included the total size of the recording and the Oldest to most current dates in the calculation. As for what reason, considering how the file system handles it, is anyone's guess.

My guess is the way that the Hopper handles On Demand from DVR events. They say that the internal HDD is partitioned into two 1TB partitions. My guess is that it is now, and it's a software partition scheme, as it would be a total waste of resources considering how much On Demand space is used versus DVR. However, some methods of calculating the size based on a virtual 1TB size needed to be invented. Poorly, IMHO, but that's how they do it.

But if you delete the oldest of a series or oldest (e.g., the oldest show of The Blacklist (if that's the oldest show on the internal drive), then the total space will drop by at least a week's worth of recording space.

Also, if you move those shows off to an EHD, the result is not instantaneous like deletion is, but a reboot will force the receiver to reindex the internal drive and give you another number.

So if it says 80% full, it's not. It's 80% as if it was recording your normal shows regularly, from the oldest to the most current.

I know that sounds like total mush and madness, and I agree, it is. But that is the way it works! My utilization is up right now because we have some of the NBC Chicago Med/PD/Fire shows from last season we haven't watched yet. When we start to watch them, and I start to delete them, you can bet the number will go down.

Yes, Another little factoid that no one seems to know about, even inside DISH support. But I found out after years of frustration and trial and error and just me being plain stubborn!

BW
I knew I left something out and in my case, when I deleted random recordings, the % meter immediately went down whether I deleted them or I manually move them to the EHDD so for example, if it was claiming 80% when it's full. I delete new
stuff after watching or transfer to a EHDD, the 80% would actually show go down immediately to 79%, 78% and I can get it down to 65% as I am deleting but the message that says the timer recording has been halted because the hard disk is full would keep coming up until the box is restarted which would fix the issue. So the utilization number would decrease immediately, just that the box itself is not looking at the utilitization % going down and stuck on thinking it's full until the box is restarted one way or another, either me doing it using the menu or physically or if DISH forces a reboot because I believe Josh.M mentioned in another thread about the VIP receivers which appears that the box will restart and force a reboot when it approaches I think is 48 hours since last rebooted as a message will come up that says something to the effect of Oops! Something is wrong and mentions that the receiver has not been restarted recently and forces a reboot in 45 seconds with no option to delay it. If it is less time that that, the box if one is watching tv can either allow it to reboot or choose the other button to allow watching tv and skip it.

So in my case, the deleting of current day and even older things like from atleast a month ago as I do about 24 recordings a day, many of them are the same show and rebroadcasted during different times of the day, the % goes down in real-time as I delete so the % number did not stay or increase but instead went down.

As far as the reboot goes, assuming it did show 65% before the reboot, it will show 80% after the reboot and then maybe 30 minutes to 1 hour later, the % will drop a little at a time and eventually show 65% assuming there was nothing being recorded. I thought it was you or someone else in another thread earlier who said the user is allowed to use 1.2TB space with 800MB reserved while I always had thought it was 1TB user accessible as I thought the reserved space was for the buffering of the 16 tuners since remember if you had the box on and not standby, you can usually replay anything in the butffer from the time that channel was selected after it's turned on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Yup, but honestly, I've seen worse! Have you ever looked at the original DOS file system manager? Just a chain of linked lists. Break one of them, and it all crashed down. But all you lost was a great big giant floppy disk! LOL

But try it: pick an old recording, watch it, take a look at the percentage, and then use the recall/delete function to just press the button to delete it. You'll see the free disk space go up. Or the used space goes down depending on how you look at it.
Never had that problem with DOS 2.11 and later as I ran a BBS since 1986 on FidoNet but ofcourse I later used a tool named List.com which had something called fv.com that was awesome while in DOS that I was using even with Windows XP I think up to 2009.

As for what you said, in my case, deleting whether I watch or not even new recordings or transferring to EHDD, the used space as in % goes down so if it was 80%, I will actually see it show 79%, 78%, 77%, 76% since everything I record in is SD version of the channel, it takes 2 or 3 recordings for it to go down 1% but eventually I get it down to 65%. So a lot has to do with the HDD is out of free space to record and the recording has been stopped message showing up. If I get the % down before it shows up, it will never show up. If I don't, then it will do that with the original timers it halted with a partial stopped recording as the timer would show stopped by user and then any timers following that will also show the message when that timer fires up with 0 minute recordings on the DVR. The message will show up and repeat within seconds until it feels like stopping or I get the % shown down to something like 63% for example which is why the transferring to EHDD method is faster as I wouldn't delete things that were recorded completely until after I finish watching it but in my case, the ones that I delete are the duplicates of each title that were repeats on that current day.

I'll have to try using recall/delete to delete as the way I usually do is hit select, then stop and then select delete or if it's without watching, just delete directly without watching.

So it seems the behavior on my Hopper 3 is that the utilization % will drop as long as things are deleted by 1% for every 2-3 1.5Hr SD recordings even current day ones and old ones whether it's deleted or transferred to a EHDD as the only different with the later is it's deleted from the internal HDD instead of the usual delete that goes to the trash first but ofcourse the same issue happens even if I emptied the trash. It happened more recently as this is not a new problem as before, my normal utilization is 50%-60% because I also do not have one title that has 3 x 1Hr recordings daily where 2 are reruns of the same episode so for each date, I watch the 4:00PM version and if there are problems, I may have to watch the 7:00AM or 9:00PM version for the rest but after watching, all 3 gets deleted and in this case, it has about 99 recordings which means there are 33 episodes I have to watch. It seems in older versions of software, I can delay the restarting forever meaning it can be weeks before it will reboot while the box is on but I am not there when it asks to reboot so it does it by default. So it's strange that for some, only deleting old recordings will make the % used go down while mines will go down as long as I delete and I know it works for new ones as I always delete the new ones daily and see it go down. So the bug here is once the message shows up that the HDD is out of space, it will do it without first checking if the current % going down which in my case has because it started at 80% but is doing it even at 65% but if I had things I could delete further and can get the % down further like 63% as I mentioned before, the issue is gone so the other problem is it could be there is a delay for the Hopper 3 which is 30 minutes to hours before it recognizes that the % used has actually gone down. Hard to tell as it's not like we had access to df and what the Hopper 3 thinks is available space at the same moment as a comparison.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Never had that problem with DOS 2.11 and later as I ran a BBS since 1986 on FidoNet but ofcourse I later used a tool named List.com which had something called fv.com that was awesome while in DOS that I was using even with Windows XP I think up to 2009.
Loved List.com! That was one fantastic tool for it's time. The ability to view the contents of binary files and filter them was amazing for it's day, and yep, used it as well up through Windows XP...
 
Loved List.com! That was one fantastic tool for it's time. The ability to view the contents of binary files and filter them was amazing for it's day, and yep, used it as well up through Windows XP...
I remember a few years or maybe it's really 10 years ago, I actually found a copy of it and used it again and I can do things to files extremely fast like changing 30 files in under a minute and other things including what you had mentioned. Because of your response, I tried to search for it again and looks like the author who wrote list.com passed away a few years before this thread which is already 12 years old:

Looks like he passed away in 2009 and basically list.com did not work on 64 bit OSes which was probably why we both stopped using it past Windows XP so the same person who as a longtime list.com user couldn't get list.com working on 64 bit created one that did:

It seems like there are even more replacements that were based on how good list.com was.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
I remember a few years or maybe it's really 10 years ago, I actually found a copy of it and used it again and I can do things to files extremely fast like changing 30 files in under a minute and other things including what you had mentioned. Because of your response, I tried to search for it again and looks like the author who wrote list.com passed away a few years before this thread which is already 12 years old:

Looks like he passed away in 2009 and basically list.com did not work on 64 bit OSes which was probably why we both stopped using it past Windows XP so the same person who as a longtime list.com user couldn't get list.com working on 64 bit created one that did:

It seems like there are even more replacements that were based on how good list.com was.
I too looked for it, about 7-8 years ago, but was never able to find it. Thanks for the info and link for zblist! I'll definitely take a look at it! I remember the name Vern Buerg - hope he had a good life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
I too looked for it, about 7-8 years ago, but was never able to find it. Thanks for the info and link for zblist! I'll definitely take a look at it! I remember the name Vern Buerg - hope he had a good life.
There is actually something even better called listc which is more recent and fast. listc is supposed to be the better than listb which is supposedly compatible with Windows 10 but the only problem is it's extremely slow. No idea what the speed is with zblist. I think I talked to Vern Buerg a few times since back as a teenager in the 1980s, a lot of the famous people like Tom Jennings, Doug Boone, Tim Pozar that were well known in the industry actually knows me by name because there would be things I would do that some of the other people in the same FidoNet network does not like. The others, I used to have their phone numbers to talk to them whenever I want to. Seems like all the people mentioned including Vern Buerg were actually located in the San Francisco Bay Area. I am sure I have list.com on my BBS backup archives on either 5.25" or 3.5" floppies somewhere here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
One thing I noticed with H362 but not for certain if it happened with H358 is last night as I didn't pay close attention with H358 but when the Hopper 3 is rebooted either with the Red Button or using the menu, when it shows the acquiring signal
with the progress bar which may take up to 5 minutes that instead of the progress bar moving, within 2-3 seconds after that message is shown, that screen disappears and shows the Complete Signal Loss screen instead and eventually maybe 8-9 minutes later, the live video will work but before that, all the tuners will just show Acquiring Signal when I click on options.
 
Yep, DOS was something I used way back in the day (1980s) and at least there were ways of recovering files and fixing the FAT.

I tried what you suggested and yep, that's exactly what it did. :rolleyes:
Cool Beans! Yeah, I have no clue what algorithm they use or if it was written after a hard night at the local pub. But it is what it is. :)
 
As for what you said, in my case, deleting whether I watch or not even new recordings or transferring to EHDD, the used space as in % goes down so if it was 80%, I will actually see it show 79%, 78%, 77%, 76% since everything I record in is SD version of the channel, it takes 2 or 3 recordings for it to go down 1% but eventually I get it down to 65%. So a lot has to do with the HDD is out of free space to record and the recording has been stopped message showing up. If I get the % down before it shows up, it will never show up. If I don't, then it will do that with the original timers it halted with a partial stopped recording as the timer would show stopped by user and then any timers following that will also show the message when that timer fires up with 0 minute recordings on the DVR. The message will show up and repeat within seconds until it feels like stopping or I get the % shown down to something like 63% for example which is why the transferring to EHDD method is faster as I wouldn't delete things that were recorded completely until after I finish watching it but in my case, the ones that I delete are the duplicates of each title that were repeats on that current day.

I'll have to try using recall/delete to delete as the way I usually do is hit select, then stop and then select delete or if it's without watching, just delete directly without watching.

So it seems the behavior on my Hopper 3 is that the utilization % will drop as long as things are deleted by 1% for every 2-3 1.5Hr SD recordings even current day ones and old ones whether it's deleted or transferred to a EHDD as the only different with the later is it's deleted from the internal HDD instead of the usual delete that goes to the trash first but ofcourse the same issue happens even if I emptied the trash. It happened more recently as this is not a new problem as before, my normal utilization is 50%-60% because I also do not have one title that has 3 x 1Hr recordings daily where 2 are reruns of the same episode so for each date, I watch the 4:00PM version and if there are problems, I may have to watch the 7:00AM or 9:00PM version for the rest but after watching, all 3 gets deleted and in this case, it has about 99 recordings which means there are 33 episodes I have to watch. It seems in older versions of software, I can delay the restarting forever meaning it can be weeks before it will reboot while the box is on but I am not there when it asks to reboot so it does it by default. So it's strange that for some, only deleting old recordings will make the % used go down while mines will go down as long as I delete and I know it works for new ones as I always delete the new ones daily and see it go down. So the bug here is once the message shows up that the HDD is out of space, it will do it without first checking if the current % going down which in my case has because it started at 80% but is doing it even at 65% but if I had things I could delete further and can get the % down further like 63% as I mentioned before, the issue is gone so the other problem is it could be there is a delay for the Hopper 3 which is 30 minutes to hours before it recognizes that the % used has actually gone down. Hard to tell as it's not like we had access to df and what the Hopper 3 thinks is available space at the same moment as a comparison.
I have no idea, as I've never pulled an internal drive out to peek into, but if it's formatted anywhere close to an EHD, then it is formatted into multiple 500G partitions. This means that the max recording space is limited to the space left on the emptyest partition when it allocates where it will place the recording.

So if most of the partitions are leveled out (which they never are because it writes from inside to outside, higher to lower partition numbers), then the max recording you can fit would be the partition size - the size of any other recordings in that partition as recording cannot span into another partition.
So if each partition was 300G full, 200G is the maximum recording space you can ever have, even though the total free disk space is much more.

At least for the EHDs, the Hopper will not load-level the partitions or do any after recording maintenance or defragmentation on the drive/partitions. Luckily, defragmenting on EXT3 isn't much of a problem as the most the arm can travel is the width of the 500G partition and not bounce all over the drive.

Again, the internal drive can be formatted completely differently or maybe even in some proprietary format, as the recordings on the internal drive are not encrypted. A proprietary format makes sense, in that case, to keep people from removing a drive and copying off recordings before they get encrypted when moved to an EHD.

If someone does have an old internal drive that is still operational, it would be nice to hook it up to a Linux system and see if the file system can recognize it and see how it's physically formatted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell
Loved List.com! That was one fantastic tool for it's time. The ability to view the contents of binary files and filter them was amazing for it's day, and yep, used it as well up through Windows XP...
You know, I still have an ASUS Pentium Win/XP system running in my basement that runs my 1st generation home automation system. I reboot it maybe twice a year and just look at it to clear out log files, etc. I did upgrade it to SSD, so for a Pentium system, it's pretty snappy, only running one app. But as it's mission-critical, I did go out and acquire one of everything in the entire beast that might fail. I have extra exact SSDs, an extra motherboard, extra CPU, extra memory, LAN card, an extra old-style power supply, extra fans, etc. So, anything that might fry on it, I can just open it up and replace what has finally died. But I have quite a few fans keeping it as cool as possible.

Of the Windows 10, 11, and Ubuntu servers I have running, the XP box is the reliable pug and chug workhorse that it just makes it not worth my time to upgrade to the newest version of the software (which I also run as a supplement to the XP system as some technologies (Z-Wave, Zigbee, etc) just didn't exist back then so there was no support for those in the XP version of the HA system.
 
You know, I still have an ASUS Pentium Win/XP system running in my basement that runs my 1st generation home automation system. I reboot it maybe twice a year and just look at it to clear out log files, etc. I did upgrade it to SSD, so for a Pentium system, it's pretty snappy, only running one app. But as it's mission-critical, I did go out and acquire one of everything in the entire beast that might fail. I have extra exact SSDs, an extra motherboard, extra CPU, extra memory, LAN card, an extra old-style power supply, extra fans, etc. So, anything that might fry on it, I can just open it up and replace what has finally died. But I have quite a few fans keeping it as cool as possible.

Of the Windows 10, 11, and Ubuntu servers I have running, the XP box is the reliable pug and chug workhorse that it just makes it not worth my time to upgrade to the newest version of the software (which I also run as a supplement to the XP system as some technologies (Z-Wave, Zigbee, etc) just didn't exist back then so there was no support for those in the XP version of the HA system.
How'd you find duplicates of the motherboard, CPU, RAM, PSU, etc? Or did you buy them at the time you bought the box? It's nearly impossible to find gear that vintage nowadays...
 
  • Like
Reactions: charlesrshell