3rd opinion on NLOS/backstabbing customer

[Roadwarrior]

Ok, I think I've got a pretty good bead on how customers, Dish employees and retail installers feel about Sub Contractors. But I'm going to share a story with all of you anyway. Maybe this will give you some insight into our world.

I had a really crappy route the other day, 5 service calls and a one room dish mover, that was actually just a third opinion on a No line of sight. I drove a total of 230 miles that day, and made around $180. (I buy my own gas, I buy my own everything, for those of you who don't know what a sub contractor is). So I get to this guys house, he is completely treed in, but he thinks all the previous installers were just lazy, so he insists that I try a spot that he picked out where he is certain it will go. It was a pole mount, the ground was nothing but rocks. I knew it was not going to be easy, and I knew he was not going to get a signal. So I told the guy, alright, I'll try it here, but if it doesn't go in, you owe me 20$. I don't work for free, I don't care what any of you uppity f***s think. WE ARE NOT YOUR SERVANTS.(No, I did not curse at the customer, I was very pleasant)

He agreed. So i dug, and picked and cussed at that little spot of ground for over an hour, set the pole(used 50 lbs of concrete), pointed the dish(I could tell by my meter that i wasn't going to get 110 at all, and 119 would be less than impressive). I ran a wild line in through the front door and hooked his reciever up. Surprise surprise! I had a whopping 56 on the 119, and no 110. (this was a 311 reciever). But he doesn't understand how this stuff works, so i let it download a program guide so he could check his favorite channels. Every damned one of the ones he checked came in, no matter what channel i went to, none of them would lose signal! But I couldn't leave it like that, sooner or later he was gonna start losing signal, and start noticing the channels he was missing, and it would be nothing but a headache for my office forever, and it would ultimately cost me more than i made on the job. So I explained this to him, let him talk to one of our FSM's, who also explained to him why I couldn't leave it like that, he said ok, gave me my 20 bucks and I left. The MFer turns around and calls dish and tells them that I charged him 20 bucks to tell him it wouldn't go in, now I have to pay it back.


Long post, I know. The morale of the story is, from this point on, no customer is going to get anything out of me that's not on the work order, and I will not apologize when the job just won't go. Don't argue with me, don't whine, don't expect me to lose money because you don't understand . Live with it, or go back to cable.

Oh, you can charge a customer for a pole mount, or a mirrored line, or burying more than 50 feet of cable, but if they call Dish and bitch about it, you're in trouble.

A sub contracted installer is nothing more than an employee with no benefits. So the next time you guys start complaining about us, or talking trash about us, or just assuming that you are better than us, I encourage you to at least 'try' and look at things from our point of view.

P.S If you are going to ask why I don't just go get another job, my answer to that is, I already know how to do this, and jobs just don't fall out of the sky.

 

[garys]

You should have had the customer install it himself and leave.

 

[Roadwarrior]

You are correct sir. I'm just tired of customers who think they know everything telling me that the other techs only called it because they were lazy. What kind of tech is too lazy to install an already activated single tuner reciever?

At any rate, the mistake was on my end, trying to be a 'good tech' and doing everything I could to help out a customer, without totally losing out. But I lost out anyway!

Never again. It's not the 20 bucks, it's the principle. We made a deal, and people accuse installers of being sinister. :haha

 

[Mike_H]

I'll say it. You were in the wrong on all parts. There is a process for dealing with this, and it's not the Customer's fault that some idiot sent yet another tech out there to do an install that two techs already said can't be done. If you need your $20, get it from the idiot that sent you back out there. Rather than the home office having the balls to tell a customer it just won't work, they instead waste the time of a valuable sub-contractor to go and flog himself in an already loosing situation.

Two issues here.

#1 - There are idiot techs out there that get sent to do jobs they are not even slightly qualified to do thus office folk second guess the guys that do know what they are doing.
#2 - When it really can't be done, too many people seem unwilling to tell someone it can't be done. I'm shocked that Techs that are calling no go on installs are not documenting this with a digital camera somehow.

 

[ajax33]

I work for an RSP, but our process is such that if a tech goes on a job and calls no LOS, then a Site Survey is built, and the FSM or other manager is supposed to check it within 3 days. When they check it, if there is no LOS, they cancel the W.O. and that is it. No 3rd or 4th opinions.

That is in my opinion how it should be.

 

[Hall]

Why are you charging a customer "under the table" ?? Did your company, or Dish, not pay you for the call regardless of whether or not it worked ?? That's like the installers who charge for the cables they took out of the receiver's box or charging for "special" installs. Dish should be charging the customer and then paying the installer or the installer's company. When a customer signs up and gets a "free" install, "free" doesn't mean paying cash directly to the installer. If extra cable is needed or a wall fish, authorize it through Dish, get the proper rate, and have Dish bill for it.

 

[lakebum431]

Here is another question (I'm pretty sure I already know the answer), Would you have reported that $20 on your taxes as income?

 

[Roadwarrior]

Why are you charging a customer "under the table" ?? Did your company, or Dish, not pay you for the call regardless of whether or not it worked ?? That's like the installers who charge for the cables they took out of the receiver's box or charging for "special" installs. Dish should be charging the customer and then paying the installer or the installer's company. When a customer signs up and gets a "free" install, "free" doesn't mean paying cash directly to the installer. If extra cable is needed or a wall fish, authorize it through Dish, get the proper rate, and have Dish bill for it.

No, I don't get paid unless the job goes in, period. Im just expected to do it. Have any of you ever done this for a living? I got paid NOTHING for that hour and a half i spent or that bag of concrete I used. This is why i charged the customer. What is so hard to understand about this? 20 bucks for an hour and a half of pointless work just to make a customer happy is not too much to ask. Dish does not pay for wall fishes, or any kind of non standard work whatsoever.

 

[Roadwarrior]

I'll say it. You were in the wrong on all parts. There is a process for dealing with this, and it's not the Customer's fault that some idiot sent yet another tech out there to do an install that two techs already said can't be done. If you need your $20, get it from the idiot that sent you back out there. Rather than the home office having the balls to tell a customer it just won't work, they instead waste the time of a valuable sub-contractor to go and flog himself in an already loosing situation.

Two issues here.

#1 - There are idiot techs out there that get sent to do jobs they are not even slightly qualified to do thus office folk second guess the guys that do know what they are doing.
#2 - When it really can't be done, too many people seem unwilling to tell someone it can't be done. I'm shocked that Techs that are calling no go on installs are not documenting this with a digital camera somehow.

I can't argue with anything in your post. You are right. But there is nothing I can do about it. There is one other HSP in this area, and they don't pay any better, or stand up for their techs any more than my company does. I'm at a loss. The mixed replies to this reflects the hopelessness of my situation. The customer is supposed to get a free install, but the techs are the ones out of pocket if anything non-standard comes up. Taking pictures isn't fool proof. A tech could select his choice of areas to photograph.

Maybe I should just resign myself to the fact that I'm a charity installer? I'll continue to live paycheck to paycheck so these couch potatoes can save a buck. What scalliwag I've been. I am ashamed.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Here is another question (I'm pretty sure I already know the answer), Would you have reported that $20 on your taxes as income?

What difference does it make? Should I have still worked for free? Nothing I do is good enough. If I had just bowed out and called it NLOS and told them they were TSOL, I would have been accused of
being lazy because "I didn't even try", and they would have called Dish back and demanded a 4th opinion, screwing with our completion rate further.

 

[lakebum431]

The difference is if you are collecting money "under the table" (I'm sure this isn't the first time you've done this) it is wrong. I pay taxes on every dime I make, why shouldn't you have to as well? Are you better than me? If you don't like your job find another, it isn't as if you are in a highly skilled position where you would be missing out if you changed fields. There are a ton of jobs available. If you don't feel that you are being compensated enough for what you do then find a job that will compensate you fairly. I have zero sympathy for someone that complains but doesn't do anything about it.

 

[Jared Twomey]

The difference is if you are collecting money "under the table" (I'm sure this isn't the first time you've done this) it is wrong. I pay taxes on every dime I make, why shouldn't you have to as well? Are you better than me? If you don't like your job find another, it isn't as if you are in a highly skilled position where you would be missing out if you changed fields. There are a ton of jobs available. If you don't feel that you are being compensated enough for what you do then find a job that will compensate you fairly. I have zero sympathy for someone that complains but doesn't do anything about it.

i don't see it as he was collecting money "under the table". The way I see it, he placed a bet with the customer, and the customer lost and paid up his debt. Unless gambling is wrong in his area, he's good

and roadwarrior, I feel for ya, I do... I am also in this business and some jobs just suck. For example, one of the installers that subs for me had a job this week that he has went out to 3 times... still hasn't gotten it installed... and thus hasn't gotten paid. And honestly has probably spent more money in gas than he will make on the job anyway.

It is a 4 room (2-dual tuner) dishmover. He went Monday and the guy wasn't home... called the guys cell phone and the guy goes "o, i forgot to call you, I had to leave... can we reschedule it or tomorrow"... installer is pissed, but understands and reschedules.
Goes back the next day and the customer is an hour late getting to the house at the time he said he would be there, my installer waits, the guy shows up, and doesn't have the receivers. They are still at his old house. Reschedule again...
Goes back late this afternoon and the guy has 1 receiver there... an old directv reciever. Installer calls me up and I talk to the customer.
Conversation goes like this...
Me: Hi, my installer tells me you don't have the equipment there again today?
Him: I have a receiver here...
Me: The installer said it is a Directv reciever
Him: So
Me: Sir, we need the DISH NETWORK receivers there to install them.
Him: you do not, i used this one at the old house
Me: that may be sir, but not on the same system that the dish network was on... they use different satellite locations sir
Him: You calling me a liar!!!
Me: thats not what i'm saying sir, but I have been doing this a long time, and I know what is possible, and what is not
Him: *hangs up*

I called my installer and told him to get out of there. I called the customer's phone, he didn't answer. I left a message basically telling him that if he had the equipment there tomorrow, he had to call me by noon, I would come out there myself and install it. If he called me, and I got out there, and no equipment... I would be charging him a trip charge. If he can't get the equipment there by tomorrow, I was cancelling the mover and he would need to call Dish to set it up... and if dish sends it to us, i'm rejecting it.... he's not one of my customers anyway

gotta love this job

 

[lakebum431]

i don't see it as he was collecting money "under the table". The way I see it, he placed a bet with the customer, and the customer lost and paid up his debt. Unless gambling is wrong in his area, he's good

and roadwarrior, I feel for ya, I do... I am also in this business and some jobs just suck. For example, one of the installers that subs for me had a job this week that he has went out to 3 times... still hasn't gotten it installed... and thus hasn't gotten paid. And honestly has probably spent more money in gas than he will make on the job anyway.

It is 100% "under the table". If you really want to go there then was it reported as gambling income (which can only be offset against gambling losses? Obviously not.

Now to your other point about spending more in gas I 100% agree. And that would be a nonreimbursed business expense (which is tax deductible), but the $20 should be included in his income if we are going to use this theory.

 

[Claude Greiner]

I agree 100% with what you did, however there are 2 Things I have learned over the years in your situation...

#1 You cannot charge a customer on a No Line of Site

#2 If you get a signal, but not a good signal do not let the customer talk you into installing it anyways.

I had about 3-4 situations over the years where I knew when I was installing the system that they would have problems with a tree several months down the road. I told the customer about it, explained the additional charges if I had to come back to relocate the Dish and gave them the option to cancel the install with no obligation before they said "Go ahead" and install it.

On every single one of these situations, the customer will call up several months later and make a big stink over it and say things like you didn't know what you where doing and escallate things to a point where you cannot go back and charge them to go fix it because you warned them first.

I hate to loose a sale, but when in doubt walk away and give the customer their money back.

 

[Roadwarrior]

The difference is if you are collecting money "under the table" (I'm sure this isn't the first time you've done this) it is wrong. I pay taxes on every dime I make, why shouldn't you have to as well? Are you better than me? If you don't like your job find another, it isn't as if you are in a highly skilled position where you would be missing out if you changed fields. There are a ton of jobs available. If you don't feel that you are being compensated enough for what you do then find a job that will compensate you fairly. I have zero sympathy for someone that complains but doesn't do anything about it.

You are absolutely correct, any a$$hole could do this job. Why don't we just go back to letting the customer buy the equipment and instal it themselves? Did you install yours?

You are also correct when you say I should just get out and cut my losses, if I don't like it. i keep holding on to some glimmer of hope that this might pan out one day, but it doesn't look like it's going to. I really can't speak on how many of these jobs are actually done by sub contractors, vs Dish employed techs and retailers, but I'm gonna bet it's quite a big percentage. I wonder what would happen if all of us just decided that this was not a smart business venture and we should maybe look for work in another field(maybe trash pick up or lawn mowing, that requires about the same skill level dont you think?). Because I promise you that everything I complain about is on the minds of just about every Sub Contracted installer out there.

I never expected any kind of support from you Lakebum, by reading some of your posts I know how you feel about installers. Don't worry tho, I won't be charging customers for anything ever again. If I continue to do this, I'm going to do the bare minimum required of me, I'm not going to worry about how it looks, I'm going to install systems in the manner outlined in the service agreement to a T, and nothing more. I'm not required to do wall fishes, I'm not required to even get into the attic or crawl under the house. I think these hack installers are really just guys that figured all this out along time ago. It does not pay to be a good tech.

 

[Dah-Henny]

The whole "report on your taxes" thing couldn't be farther from the topic of this thread.:down

 

[Hall]

No, I don't get paid unless the job goes in, period. Im just expected to do it. Have any of you ever done this for a living? I got paid NOTHING for that hour and a half i spent or that bag of concrete I used.

Nope, I've never done it and based on what I've read here over the years, I'd NEVER do it either. How the satellite companies can get away with this is beyond me. Why the installers or installation companies go into this business is also beyond me.

What is so hard to understand about this?

I'll admit, I do find it very hard to understand why someone will go to work every morning to a job that might NOT pay a dime at the end of the day and worse, it will have cost money out of pocket.

 

[cparker]

I'm siding with RoadWarrior on this one. I've never subcontracted doing dish installs, but I've done PLENTY of construction work as a sub. In RoadWarriors situation we have a guy that really tried. Now you could argue that his energy may have been better spent on the NEXT job after walking away from this one, but he TRIED to satisfy a customer's request. He explained the situation. He MAY have recovered costs for the cement and the pole or whatever by asking for the $20, but he sure didn't recover labor.

And still he was willing to give this a try. I can't see why anyone is giving him sh** about this. I don't think this is a bad reflection on him... I think the CUSTOMER should have the pole jammed up his *** (figure it out) with the dish still attached for pulling this stunt and depriving the installer of the $20 he AGREED to. Hell I TIP my installers $20 and that's just on a receiver swap (where I make the connections! hehehe) "here... cup of coffee? You do the paperwork and I'll make the connections. Thanks"

You have good installers and bad installers. I'd buy RoadWarrior a beer.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Nope, I've never done it and based on what I've read here over the years, I'd NEVER do it either. How the satellite companies can get away with this is beyond me. Why the installers or installation companies go into this business is also beyond me. I'll admit, I do find it very hard to understand why someone will go to work every morning to a job that might NOT pay a dime at the end of the day and worse, it will have cost money out of pocket.

Yes, it is hard to explain why we all still do it. I suppose it's because most of ust DON'T have much business sense. There is still the allure of working on your own, and the possibility of actually making good money in a short period of time. It is possible to make a good living at it still, surely. Maybe if I were in the right area, with the right company...maybe, just maybe....

nahh, it's a sickness.

 

[8bitbytes]

That's a hard way to make a living...

Two questions:
Why a pole mount if you needed to get over a tree line? Was the pole higher than any appropriate mount site on the house?

Why 50lbs of concrete? Was that because of a shallow hole because of the soil conditions?
I had my dishes on 8 foot poles rammed 2 feet into the ground for 10 years now but I don't have hardpan or rocks to contend with.