83W AMC 9

[AcWxRadar]

Hi, Radar here.

I wanted to confer with everyone and see what your results have been for this satellite 83.0 W AMC 9, expressly the RTN East and West feed channels.

Since the Equity Broadcasting Network went out of business, I have been missing the RTN channels that I used to love so much. I know that they put feed channels on this satellite, but I have a very difficult time pulling them in. I do get them, but they are really sporadic and touchy.

I am near Omaha, Nebraska. I have a Winegard DS-2076 (76 cm dish) an Invacom QPH-031 LNBF, a DN SW 21 switch and a Coolsat 5000 receiver.

I can look in on the neighboring satellites at 79.0W AMC 5 and 85.0W AMC 2 and pull in channels with 95% - 98% quality, but when I dial in 83.0 W AMC 9, I am barely over the threshold (65-67%) at my best.

My brother lives 15 miles to the west of me and has the identical setup, but he can pull these RTN channels in at ~90% quality. When he checks the adjacent sats (79 and 85) he gets virtually the same levels as I do, here at my place.

I have these RTN channels set on TP 11.735 GHz, Horizontal. SR 4.440 MS/s. The same as my brother has, but it seems that something is blocking or reducing the signal from 83W for me.

There are no trees in the line of sight for this sat for me, it is just as open and clear as it is for the neighboring sats, which work well.

I am going to go out on March 3-4-5 and take a look at where the solar outage calculator tells me the sat should be at that time, by referencing the sun. I do not believe that anything is in my way (like a tree or the barn or anything). It is pretty wide open and clear in that direction (and the signal from 79W and 85W helps to confirm this). But, I will make sure of this.

When I do get these RTN channels to come in on 83W, I cannot move the dish east/west or up/down to improve the signal quality. The dish appears to be set at the optimum position and I cannot improve upon it.

What I do not understand is that my brother can pull 83W in just fine and that I can pull the neighboring satellites (79 and 85) just fine, but for me, 83W is extremely hindered.

I have compared settings (TP frequency, symbol rate, etc) and surveyed the line of sight path and I cannot find anything that is wrong or in the way! My brother has researched tis problem too, and he does not see the problem either, it is elluding him as well.

Anyone of you have any suggestions? At this point, I will take any suggestion, because I have exhausted all of the most logical reasons already. The problem must be something unique, something that I have not been trained to detect.

Thanks to anyone who has the time to respond with any ideas on this problem. I will appreciate any ideas at this time! I am up against the wall here!

AcWxRadar

 

[turbosat]

I got them stable here in rainy weather today, 65signal 94quality on a 1m primestar with a red-lnbf ! (tracker 2 I think its called). It IS curious that someone so close by with same equipment can get better signal than you, though. Every site is unique, you might never figure it out. Bigger dish is the best thing I can think of, could be some TI or something blowing by your dish that isn't present at your brother's place.
One other thing-can that type lnbf be adjusted in/out any? Further or closer to dish I mean.
I would be puzzled with that problem also, and prob pull the dish down and put up a bigger one just to see if it improved. In fact I did that. For awhile, until RTN kicked up the power on that tp. Good luck with that mystery..

 

[AcWxRadar]

I got them stable here in rainy weather today, 65signal 94quality on a 1m primestar with a red-lnbf ! (tracker 2 I think its called). It IS curious that someone so close by with same equipment can get better signal than you, though. Every site is unique, you might never figure it out. Bigger dish is the best thing I can think of, could be some TI or something blowing by your dish that isn't present at your brother's place.
One other thing-can that type lnbf be adjusted in/out any? Further or closer to dish I mean.
I would be puzzled with that problem also, and prob pull the dish down and put up a bigger one just to see if it improved. In fact I did that. For awhile, until RTN kicked up the power on that tp. Good luck with that mystery..

Turbo,

Thanks for your reply. You see that it is unusual? If my signal was merely 5% different from my brother's, then I could fathom this discrepancy and explain it away with several obvious causes. However, this is 30% difference in quality and that suggests something very pronounced.

TI of some sort is the only thing that I can blame at this point, but it is also something that I cannot prove with the equipment that I have.

I do know one thing that makes me curious, and that is that I cannot use a magnetic compass here at my location to assist me in finding my azimuth aim for my dish. When I walk across my property I see the compass needle swing 20-30 degrees or more off of where I do know where North should be. At some positions, the needle even wants to "dip" down and stick as if the pole was directly underground from my position. I have tried to use several different magnetic compasses here and they all respond the same.

I simply cannot imagine why it would affect only one satellite this much, and leave the neighboring sats unaffected. It is almost as if there is simply a hole in the sky for that one satellite.

Regarding the LNBF: Yes, I can move it in and out (to change the focal point) by maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inch. It can also be rotated in the mount to adjust the polarity. These are two adjustments that I have attempted without observing any positive results.

Radar

 

[turbosat]

You're not on the edge of the Bermuda Triangle are you? Something weird going on with the geology there, can't use a compass sounds strange. Highly magnetic/mineralized ground. Iron ore? Buried UFO? That would bug me until I figured it out lol.
You can always construct some screens out of 2x4s and metallic screen wire, big enough to block the dish and move it around frm side to side and see if you can block it out, if it IS some kind of rf interference.

edit to add another idea: How does your setup do on ONN at 74W ? it is about the same freq as RTN, also H polarity, or on AMC3-MTA1
channel, which is also very close to 11735 freq? Just wondering if something could be interfering with that particular freq??? ....

 

[N6BY]

Have you tried taking out the SW 21 switch and connecting directly to one of the linear outputs of the QPH-031?

 

[AcWxRadar]

Have you tried taking out the SW 21 switch and connecting directly to one of the linear outputs of the QPH-031?

Yep,

I did try to hardwire the system and bypass all switches. I did that before I posted this question. Please believe me when I say that I have exhausted all normal resources and ideas.

I am missing somethiing but I don't know what it is at this time. There is something major interfering with my signal from 83W and I cannot identify it. Judging by the signal degredation, it should be an obvious problem, but I am not seeing it.

Thank you,

Radar

 

[AcWxRadar]

edit to add another idea: How does your setup do on ONN at 74W ? it is about the same freq as RTN, also H polarity, or on AMC3-MTA1
channel, which is also very close to 11735 freq? Just wondering if something could be interfering with that particular freq??? ....

ONN comes in swell, 90%-92% Q today. Which is a little lower than normal, but we have some clouds and snow. Normally I detect it at about 93-95% Q.

Radar

 

[concord]

I don't think a slight offset on the skew would cause 20-30% diff in quality, but would give it a try changing it, along with turbo's suggestion. I wasn't able to get them with my fortec dish until they boosted the signal and fine tuned the dish (left/right).

 

[gillham]

Would the shift in magnetic field due to a large iron (or something more valuable ) deposit be enough to impact an LNBF or coaxial cable? I guess you could try finding an area of the yard that is closest to correct field and test from there. Or wrap some aluminum foil around the LNBF. ;-)

I would try to baseline your receiver at your brother's place if that is easy or at least compare a couple variations of receiver / lnbf and see if they all act the same way.

 

[turbosat]

That would make me wanna bring in a metal detector and give that place a good searching!!

 

[AcWxRadar]

I don't think a slight offset on the skew would cause 20-30% diff in quality, but would give it a try changing it, along with turbo's suggestion. I wasn't able to get them with my fortec dish until they boosted the signal and fine tuned the dish (left/right).

Concord,

I agree. Adjusting the skew shouldn't make this great of a difference unless you are way offset.

I have tried adjusting the skew (and by skew I assume you mean the polarity rotation of the LNBF). I had attempted this a while back, but at that time I wasn't getting any signal at all, so I could not tell if I was making any difference. So I set the LNBF back to zero degrees polarity and left it there.

When they boosted the power or made whatever adjustments they did, then I started at least detecting the signal from the TP (11.735 H and SR 4.440 MS/s).

One thing that I can be certain of, and that is the consistency of my signals and my accuracy in the alignment with the arc. Through this entire winter, wind and ice and snow and changing temperatures, all my satellites have remained aligned well. So the dish and the mounting is steady and solid. I can slew the motor to any sat and my signal and quality levels are the same as they were last fall. I can pick any satellite and set the motor option to manual DiSEqC control and I can fine step the dish an equal amount east or west before the signal starts dropping off. This is true on 83W as well. So, I know the azimuth is set good.

My brother helped me by trying to pull the dish gently up and down while I monitored the signal and the signal would only drop, not increase. So I feel pretty confident that the elevation is set correctly, too.

When the weather warms up here in Nebraska and the ground thaws out, I am going to install a new mast and a brand new dish as well. I don't think that this is going to help, but I want to make sure. I am chasing ghosts here so I don't have anything to lose.

Radar

 

[AcWxRadar]

Would the shift in magnetic field due to a large iron (or something more valuable ) deposit be enough to impact an LNBF or coaxial cable? I guess you could try finding an area of the yard that is closest to correct field and test from there. Or wrap some aluminum foil around the LNBF. ;-)

I would try to baseline your receiver at your brother's place if that is easy or at least compare a couple variations of receiver / lnbf and see if they all act the same way.

There is definitely a lot of iron in the soil here. The water from our wells have a high concentration of iron. I can believe that this could affect my compass, but I cannot see that it would have any affect on any one satellite, while not affecting the neighboring sats.

I have not attempted to try my receiver at my brother's site, but I have tried at least three different Coolsat 5000 receivers here as well as three different Invacom QPH-031 LNBFs here. They all show the identical results, absolutely no difference. I have not tried any other brand or models, but what I am using is identical to what my brother is using, including the actual dish (Winegard DS-2076). So we have the identical equipment all around.

I have tried another DS-2076 dish before, but I wasn't investigating this problem or any problem. I just set it up to align it for a friend and used my mast here to get it roughed in before taking it to my friends home. Just to make sure the LNBF and everything was good and working first.

Radar



Radar

 

[Lak7]

Possible the Dish is warped?

 

[AcWxRadar]

Possible the Dish is warped?

Lak,

Yes, that is possible. That is why I wish to try a brand new dish this spring, one that I can trust not to be bent or warped. I have run into this before, but it affected all the sats, not just one.

Do you think that it would be possible for the dish to be warped and affect only one satellite? While the very closest adjacent satellites, on each side, are not affected?

Logic tells me to answer that question with a no. But, I guess I don't have much else to go on. I am trying to isolate all the possible and most logical errors, and that is leading me to the bizarre and most illogical reasons.

Radar

 

[N6BY]

There is definitely a lot of iron in the soil here. The water from our wells have a high concentration of iron. I can believe that this could affect my compass, but I cannot see that it would have any affect on any one satellite, while not affecting the neighboring sats. ...

I agree.

My 10' BUD is mounted on a 3.5" iron pole. I have to get about 15 feet away from it to take a compass reading. The magnetism in the iron pole doesn't affect my reception of RTN on AMC9 here in California. I'm getting it with about 54% Q, even though my BUD is not a great performer with KU band.

...
I have these RTN channels set on TP 11.735 GHz, Horizontal. SR 4.440 MS/s. ...

I have the transponder set to SR 4.444 which is the same as Lyngsat.com and TrackSat.com. But I still get RTN if I change it to 4.440 like yours.

When you tried adjusting your dish, did you have a TV nearby or did you have to have an assistant call out the Q numbers? For a good aim, having a TV nearby is worth the hassle of running cable from your receiver to a TV near your dish.

And if all else fails, as turbosat and Lak7 hinted, I would get a bigger dish.

 

[Lak7]

That is why I wish to try a brand new dish this spring,

They can be warped even if Brand New.
I have a Fortec 80cm that would warp from the wind, I added 2 support arms to the LNB and it's much better.
Misalignment could be another thing. Reason I say that is I just went thru that with my BUD.
My BUD got good Ku across the Arc, just no RTN on AMC9. Made some changes and was able to get it. My Q numbers really did not change for the other Sats, they are just more stable.

 

[AcWxRadar]

I agree.

My 10' BUD is mounted on a 3.5" iron pole. I have to get about 15 feet away from it to take a compass reading. The magnetism in the iron pole doesn't affect my reception of RTN on AMC9 here in California. I'm getting it with about 54% Q, even though my BUD is not a great performer with KU band.



I have the transponder set to SR 4.444 which is the same as Lyngsat.com and TrackSat.com. But I still get RTN if I change it to 4.440 like yours.

When you tried adjusting your dish, did you have a TV nearby or did you have to have an assistant call out the Q numbers? For a good aim, having a TV nearby is worth the hassle of running cable from your receiver to a TV near your dish.

And if all else fails, as turbosat and Lak7 hinted, I would get a bigger dish.

Brett,

I played around with the S/R. Setting it to 4.440, 4.444, 4.430 and such a bit more. That did not seem to make a great deal of difference, but it is hard to tell. Nothing that I do seems to take me above that 66% level.

When it is warmer outside, I usually have a portable TV and my receiver set out on a table next to the dish. That is the best way to play, then I get immediate feedback when I tweak the dish or LNBF.

When the outdoor temp is 25 degrees F and below and the wind is blowing snow in my face, I usually scrap that approach and wait for a better day! That makes it all seem like work and I want to enjoy this like a hobby, like fishing! I don't go fishing in the rain either! LOL

Radar

 

[AcWxRadar]

They can be warped even if Brand New.
I have a Fortec 80cm that would warp from the wind, I added 2 support arms to the LNB and it's much better.
Misalignment could be another thing. Reason I say that is I just went thru that with my BUD.
My BUD got good Ku across the Arc, just no RTN on AMC9. Made some changes and was able to get it. My Q numbers really did not change for the other Sats, they are just more stable.

Lak,

The more I correspond with you guys, the more I am convinced that this is not a problem that is isolated to me alone. It appears obvious that many are experiencing a problem with the same sats and the same channels.

Just an off the cuff comment, it seems like those of us with the problems are the norm and those without problems are the exceptions to the rule. I say this because there are too many overwhelming responses and too much evidence that indicates the same problem. We cannot all have the same trouble, can we? While just a few people have none or little?

Radar

 

[ohre]

83W

I have a Viewsat and get this bird consistently at 50% Q (threshold on Viewsat is about 10-15). No problems. I do not understand why on your receiver 60-65 % Q is threshold? Shouldn't be that high. I can even lock 7/8 FEC channels on 87W 11716 TP with 40%Q (peaked it is about 80%Q). I think you may have 2 try with another receiver and dish in a seperate config just to compare.

 

[AcWxRadar]

I have a Viewsat and get this bird consistently at 50% Q (threshold on Viewsat is about 10-15). No problems. I do not understand why on your receiver 60-65 % Q is threshold? Shouldn't be that high. I can even lock 7/8 FEC channels on 87W 11716 TP with 40%Q (peaked it is about 80%Q). I think you may have 2 try with another receiver and dish in a seperate config just to compare.

Ohre,

Thank you for responding. Because you are used to your meter on the Viewsat you may not be aware that the Coolsat meter is set up differently. The scaling is unique and for linear satellites, the absolute minumum cutoff point is 63%. For a circular signal it is about 69%.

I have a SuperBuddy meter, which is calibrated to read the accurate dbM, dBmv or several other scale readouts (you can select what scale you want to read). The Coolsat 5K is one of the receivers that reads the same as my SuperBuddy meter. Meaning that the meter for Quality on the Coolsat 5K is the most legitimate. I don't know about the 6100, 7100 and upper models.

When I can get a signal LOCK with my SuperBuddy meter, I can get a signal lock at the same level with my Coolsat 5K. They are in very close agreement.

Other receivers vary a lot. Even your subscription DN and DTV receivers read differently. The DTV receier has a scale of 0-120% instead of 0-100%. Why? I cannot explain that one. I think they do it to fool the customer. It makes the signal strength look better, I guess. Kinda like grading your term paper on a curve. A grade in your class on your paper of 92% looks better than the true and accurate grade of 77%!

Radar