AMC -14 story gets more interesting

[k1wy-bill]

Tracking AMC-14 and others

Some of you might enjoy tracking various satellites. One nice program is Orbitron. It can be downloaded at Satellite Tracking System: Orbitron by Sebastian Stoff / Satellite tracking easiest ever!

I use this program to track ham radio satellites I communicate thru and the ISS to talk with the crew there.

 

[goaliebob99]

My two and half cents:

My stupid-layman analogy:

I go and buy a new car off the lot. As they are pulling it around for me to pick it up, it hits a pole and is borderline totalled. The dealership offers to repair it and give me a deal on it, or get me a new one (which may take a few weeks longer). I would chose to take a brand new card, even if it took a little longer, maybe make them throw in floor mats. If the dealership turns around and sells the thing just to make offset their loss, so be it. Maybe the original car lasts 20years without any problems, oh well. Not worth the risk.

Yes but this car is not totaled.. It was just parked in the wrong spot. In order to park it in the right spot it will take up some some gas. Unfortunatly the car is in the middle of the desert and cant be gasedup. So if they use the fuel and get some life out of it while the wait for the new car, then thats what they should do.

 

[mike123abc]

Echostar would pay big bucks to get the satellite for even the 3 years it could take to get a replacement satellite into orbit. They are already suffering enough with capacity constraints at 61.5.

 

[JohnL]

Echostar would pay big bucks to get the satellite for even the 3 years it could take to get a replacement satellite into orbit. They are already suffering enough with capacity constraints at 61.5.

Mike,

I assume that you know all the terms of the Insurance carrier that insured the launch as well as how much that company is trying recoup with a sale of the AMC14 satellite.

Once SES Americom accepts the Insurance claim payout AMC14 belongs to the insurance underwriter. It will then be up to said underwriter to decide what to do with the satellite, NOT SES AMERICOM.

If I were the insurance underwriter I would explore any options to recoup some of the paid out claim. AMC14 has a very limited value as it did NOT reach a usable orbit, moving it is possible but will likely leave AMC14 with less than 5 years of usable life. Remember moving AMC14 carries no guarantee, AMC14 could also develop other problems with any plan to move AMC14 to a usable orbit. The satellite could incur any amount of damage using a repositioning plan. The last time a Lunar Flyby was used to move a satellite to its final service location, said satellite's Solar arrays were so heavily damaged the satellite was next to useless.

The US government has little use for such a Limited Lived DBS satellite. Dish has a need and is really the only company that could take advantage of AMC14's use at 61.5.

Please tell my why the US government would take such a huge risk on a satellite with a VERY LIMITED Life after said move, or the fact that there is no guarantee the satellite would be healthy enough to enter a usable limited life at its final service location. Since Dish is the only company with a need and a plan for AMC14, Dish could drive a pretty hard bargain to purchase the satellite. If Dish is able to get AMC14 and successfully get AMC14 to 61.5, this could tide Dish over until they can get another Spare satellite or launch a new satellite to 61.5. Dish could get AMC14 from the Insurance Underwriter for more less the cost of the satellites de-orbit costs. Dish would still have to incur the risk of moving and getting a reasonable service life from the satellite, in the end it could end up being worth these risks to Dish Network.

SES Americom is just expressing hard feelings that Dish could get ownership and the use from AMC14, at their expense. Although, Remember SES Americom IS getting compensated for the loss of SES Americoms' AMC14 satellite, but they will not get paid for the loss of the revenue that the satellite was to generate for SES Americom.

John

 

[Voyager6]

If I were the insurance underwriter I would explore any options to recoup some of the paid out claim. AMC14 has a very limited value as it did NOT reach a usable orbit, moving it is possible but will likely leave AMC14 with less than 5 years of usable life. Remember moving AMC14 carries no guarantee, AMC14 could also develop other problems with any plan to move AMC14 to a usable orbit. The satellite could incur any amount of damage using a repositioning plan. The last time a Lunar Flyby was used to move a satellite to its final service location, said satellite's Solar arrays were so heavily damaged the satellite was next to useless...

...Since Dish is the only company with a need and a plan for AMC14, Dish could drive a pretty hard bargain to purchase the satellite. If Dish is able to get AMC14 and successfully get AMC14 to 61.5, this could tide Dish over until they can get another Spare satellite or launch a new satellite to 61.5. Dish could get AMC14 from the Insurance Underwriter for more less the cost of the satellites de-orbit costs. Dish would still have to incur the risk of moving and getting a reasonable service life from the satellite, in the end it could end up being worth these risks to Dish Network.

SES Americom is just expressing hard feelings that Dish could get ownership and the use from AMC14, at their expense. Although, Remember SES Americom IS getting compensated for the loss of SES Americoms' AMC14 satellite, but they will not get paid for the loss of the revenue that the satellite was to generate for SES Americom.

John

If I were E* negotiating to purchase this sat, I would propose two options. One, a low ball $XX million outright purchase from the insurer. This would take the sat off the insurers hands and let E* take all the risks associated with trying to get it to a proper orbit. Guaranteed money with no strings for the insurer. Two, a $X million upfront payment to lease the sat from the insurer with $XX million upon successful GSO placement with option to buy. This would put the insurer at risk for moving the sat but would have the possibility to get a bigger payback.

 

[navychop]

...Echostar should just run away from this thing. They paid X for a bird that will provide service for Y years. ...

Keep in mind, Echostar did not pay for the bird. They were planning to lease it.

 

[k1wy-bill]

I don't think the US government is really interested in the satellite...sounds like smoke from SES hoping to stop others from bidding on the bird. EchoStar could use the bird even in a limited life span mode. Not sure they would even venture the lunar route, just use onboard thrusters to get it in position. They need to leave enough fuel on board to de-orbit and for station keeping for its shorter life. Three years would be nice and I imagine the price is going to be very attractive compared to a new bird.

 

[bnaivar]

Maybe the Navy wants to shoot it down to keep the advanced technology out of Echostar's hands.

 

[rocatman]

I don't think the US government is really interested in the satellite...sounds like smoke from SES hoping to stop others from bidding on the bird. EchoStar could use the bird even in a limited life span mode. Not sure they would even venture the lunar route, just use onboard thrusters to get it in position. They need to leave enough fuel on board to de-orbit and for station keeping for its shorter life. Three years would be nice and I imagine the price is going to be very attractive compared to a new bird.

For clarification purposes, satellites today are not "disposed of" by de-orbiting but are raised to a higher orbit than geostationary where their orbital decay takes at least 50 years probably more before they would become a problem to geostationary satellites. If satellites were being de-orbited we would hear about them more often. Yes, there was the recent spy satellite but that is rare.

 

[JohnL]

For clarification purposes, satellites today are not "disposed of" by de-orbiting but are raised to a higher orbit than geostationary where their orbital decay takes at least 50 years probably more before they would become a problem to geostationary satellites. If satellites were being de-orbited we would hear about them more often. Yes, there was the recent spy satellite but that is rare.

Rocatman,


You are correct GeoStationary Satellite orbits are to far above the Earth's surface to deorbit them. With that said AMC14 is in a highly elliptical orbit which's lowest altitude is 500 miles above the Earth's surface. This orbit is useless for the satellite and dangerous for other satellites possibly crossing its orbit. AMC14 will HAVE to be deorbited if the final decision is to NOT move the satellite into its proper orbit.

John

 

[navychop]

Didn't E* apply to de-orbit it?

If they had the fuel to park it beyond geo, wouldn't they have the fuel to put it where it belongs? Granted, they'd need a reserve to later retire it, but that amount is quite small.

Many satellites have been de-orbited. Perhaps more than in the graveyard. I'd venture to guess most LEO and MEO sats are burned up at the end of their useful lives. Launch failures leave sats in orbits that probably make de-orbits more likely.

I think most sats in the graveyard were sent there after their useful lives were up, not as the result of launch failures.

 

[k1wy-bill]

For clarification purposes, satellites today are not "disposed of" by de-orbiting but are raised to a higher orbit than geostationary where their orbital decay takes at least 50 years probably more before they would become a problem to geostationary satellites. If satellites were being de-orbited we would hear about them more often. Yes, there was the recent spy satellite but that is rare.

You are correct for most geo sats but you will find that Anik C2 was de-orbited rather than parked above or below geo-stationary orbit.

 

[rocatman]

Didn't E* apply to de-orbit it?

If they had the fuel to park it beyond geo, wouldn't they have the fuel to put it where it belongs? Granted, they'd need a reserve to later retire it, but that amount is quite small.

Many satellites have been de-orbited. Perhaps more than in the graveyard. I'd venture to guess most LEO and MEO sats are burned up at the end of their useful lives. Launch failures leave sats in orbits that probably make de-orbits more likely.

I think most sats in the graveyard were sent there after their useful lives were up, not as the result of launch failures.

If you go back and look at the post I was replying too you will notice that it implied that the AMC-14 satellite would be put into a proper geostationary orbit.
Yes if it is decided that AMC-14 can not be used then yes it will be de-orbited because of its current elliptical orbit.

 

[mike123abc]

Mike,

I assume that you know all the terms of the Insurance carrier that insured the launch as well as how much that company is trying recoup with a sale of the AMC14 satellite.

I do not see how I indicated any terms of anything. Just the view that Echostar really, really needs the satellite and even a few years would be worth large sums of cash. Perhaps the satellite was offered to Echostar and they turned it down because they wanted too much money, but the article seems to indicate that Echostar wants the satellite as expected and SES seems to be determined to keep the satellite from Echostar.

 

[jerryez]

SES doesn't want Dish to buy it, so they can lease them another one later at full price.

 

[Marc Kessler]

SES doesn't want Dish to buy it, so they can lease them another one later at full price.

Yeah! If they can launch one successfully.

 

[Smith P.]

Excellent question! :up Another question is "Why should E* risk raising the apogee above geosynchronous altitude", rather than just firing the retros at apogee and boring down at the atmosphere at a steep angle? That is unless they intend to us the lunar flyby method of plane change. Or that other method of plane change involving L1?

Could be a requirement to burn propellant before re-entry.

 

[skyviewmark]

Personally, if they were going to splash it in the ocean anyway, why not just go ahead a see what happens when they try to fix the orbit. They can splash it at anytime. But what if moving it to orbit actually got there with a few years to spare?

 

[Sammy033]

Yeah! If they can launch one successfully.

Stranger things have happened.

 

[davisdog]

You are correct for most geo sats but you will find that Anik C2 was de-orbited rather than parked above or below geo-stationary orbit.

I'm pretty sure you'll find that C2 was not deorbited the way you are thinking (ie splashed into the ocean).

If you look at what Telesat (who runs Anik for Candians) says, they "deorbit" all of their Commsats when they are done with them...But what they are doing is bumping them up above geo and turning them off just like the others (ie getting them out of their operational orbit). It would take a ridiculous amount of fuel to deorbit a satellite from Geo.