Anybody having OTA guide issues with the 811?

[Neutron]

nippjas already explained this.

Its because the locals you get from DISH have the guide info because DISH provides them.

The OTA locals guide info is sent out by the local stations themselves, OTA.

 

[nippjas]

I'm not trying to be obstinate, I'm truely confused. Why does Dish have the right guide info on their locals, but the OTA guide is incomplete? Say it simply, as if to a backward child.

OK, I will state that one really needs to know how this works to fully understand it. The Echostar satellite stream send a signal too...this is referred to as the PID stream. This data contains a lot of info such as firmware rev, guide data, SAT TOD (Time Of Day), etc...The PSIP is transmitted via OTA and contains similar data. The PSIP data is not alway complete or accurate. This is probably one of the reasons E* chose not to use all the available PSIP. PSIP is pretty necessary and controls OTA channal assignment mapping on the OTA 8VSB tuner of your 811. Yes PSIP is capable of carrying guide data but not as far out as E* customers require. That is why E* combines the data from PSIP and PID. PSIP is supposed to control assignment mapping, guide data, TOD, Subchannel assignment, frequency, etc....But like I said it's not always there and complete, in fact it flakes out every now and then...as some 811 users found TOD drifting...even months off the target, channels rearranging themselves, etc...This it a characteristic of PSIP derived data. Dish supplies the guide data and now TOD, from data supplied by agreement with the TV Guide channel, thru PID to compensate.

I probably just lost everyone so I'll shut up now.

Jason

 

[SimpleSimon]

Jason's right - but also note that the PID is only good for around 2 hours. The 8-day EPG is only on 110, and IIRC, actually requires an available tuner to 'read' it.

Think it through and you'll see why the satellite guide sometimes gets "short", and it can take a while (overnight) to get it back.

 

[mdonnelly]

Okay, now I understand. Dish local guide data comes from the TV Guide channel, and 811 OTA guide comes from the station via PSIP.

 

[SimpleSimon]

No. You still don't see the light.

ALL guide data comes from the 'hidden' channels, not the TVG channel, not the PSIP stream.

The trick is how to match the guide data to the actual channel row in the guide - that's what the PSIP is used for.

Maybe someday PSIP guide data will ALSO be used, but remember, it's only good for a few hours into the future - not the several days that you can get with an E* DVR.

 

[nippjas]

Okay, now I understand. Dish local guide data comes from the TV Guide channel, and 811 OTA guide comes from the station via PSIP.

Getting closer, but no...I'm sorry I lost ya...Yes the PSIP should and probably does contain Guide data, but it is not 44 hour plus. PSIp is required for channel mapping, station Identification, Time of date, etc...E* doesn't use all of the PSIP delivered guide data as it doesn't go out far enough to make us happy. It uses both the PID and PSIP together to provide 44 hour OTA data. PSIP is required for many reasons but is only like a checksum for EPG.

 

[nippjas]

No. You still don't see the light.

ALL guide data comes from the 'hidden' channels, not the TVG channel, not the PSIP stream.

The trick is how to match the guide data to the actual channel row in the guide - that's what the PSIP is used for.

Maybe someday PSIP guide data will ALSO be used, but remember, it's only good for a few hours into the future - not the several days that you can get with an E* DVR.

To elaborate the TVG comment...it was the TVG agreement and datasubsets/structure that helped make this information available.

 

[mdonnelly]

My head hurts. I'm going to bed. Thanks for trying to help. Maybe it'll make sense to me in the morning.

 

[Neutron]

This is what happens just about everytime DISH releases a software update. It usually doesn't work like it's supposed to, or breaks something that worked perfectly fine before, and people get upset over it and post their frustrations here. When I had DISH I felt the same way.

 

[Bobby]

I give up, I tried to explain it several times between multiple threads and forums now. I'm burnt out, tired, grumpy, and I guess my info sucks and you just need to call Diishnetwork and get your own. Try 800 333-3474 see if you can talk to someone in the US none-the-less Denver.

amen, Jason, amen............

 

[jsanders]

I also stated they have issues with the way they translate and use the info. They are not using the entire data set provided by PSIP, only a portion.

Sorry about the misunderstanding nippjas, I completely agree with you, it does use part of the PSIP data set. I was really just referring to the guide info which they get from a provider. Absolutely, you are right, they use the PSIP data to grab the call letters, and the channel assignment mapping. They use that data to associate the channel as an index into the programming guide.

Unfortunately, with the 921, they are just re-mapping the analog program guide onto the digital channels. No sub-channel data. The analog doesn't always match the digital broadcast either. They could have done this hack back in January, well before they added the infrastructure the 811 uses to do it right. It just amazes me that it took them a year to do such a half baked fix which would take all of an afternoon worth of programming.

 

[nippjas]

Sorry about the misunderstanding nippjas, I completely agree with you, it does use part of the PSIP data set. I was really just referring to the guide info which they get from a provider. Absolutely, you are right, they use the PSIP data to grab the call letters, and the channel assignment mapping. They use that data to associate the channel as an index into the programming guide.

Unfortunately, with the 921, they are just re-mapping the analog program guide onto the digital channels. No sub-channel data. The analog doesn't always match the digital broadcast either. They could have done this hack back in January, well before they added the infrastructure the 811 uses to do it right. It just amazes me that it took them a year to do such a half baked fix which would take all of an afternoon worth of programming.

Now lets see how long it take them to do NBR.... I know I know shut up Jason, don't jinx it...I'm tired anyways.

 

[jsanders]

This stuff is not that complicated, I just don't get why it is taking them so long. Call letters indexed into the database give us the program guide.

Let's talk about name based recording now. Again, not too hard to accomplish. All they have to do is take this same database and make it realtional. It probably comes sorted by call letter, which links to programs in time slots. It *also* needs an added list sorted by program title, with links to call letter and time. Doing this makes name based recording a drop in the bucket.

How do I know they aren't sorting their program guide the other way?? Do a search with the '#'. You will get the string, "Searching for %s. This may take a few minutes". If they had sorted the both ways, the search would be almost instant. Yet, it has already been six months since they announced they were going to do this feature. It doesn't take that long to implement, the same as it doesn't take a year to implement an analog channel remap OTA guide for the 921.

 

[jsanders]

BTW, I think SimpleSimon could elaborate with a bit more accuracy than me about how to manage the guide database to do name base recording.....