Audio Dropout Problem (722, 722K)

[lam23]

(Atlanta Dish Network Subscriber)

I'm on my third receiver in two months (two 722s and now a 722k). All three suffer from sporadic audio dropouts on certain (and ONLY those few) stations. All but one (Comedy Channel) are HD (e.g. Fox News, Paladia sp?, etc.)

Dish Network tech support has no record of the problem even being reported by anyone else (yet my installer said he's heard it from more than a few customers). Not to mention that a google search shows roughly 1,600 references to this problem on various forums.

I have been in contact with someone in the engineering dept of Dish Network. He seemed to take a serious (and genuine) interest early on, but then ignored me for a few weeks and, just yesterday, came back with the idiotic statement that "You are the ONLY customer who has reported this problem and we can't duplicate this in our lab. But we continue to discuss it in our weekly meeting." {yeah right..}

1) I originally sent him the google search which clearly demonstrated that many have reported the problem before me (and for the 622 model as well). He has apparently decided to ignore that minor detail, something I find unacceptably lame and bordering on insulting.

2) I offered to have someone come to my home to experience the problem first-hand. Since it only affects a handful of stations,and consistently so, the problem clearly does NOT lie post-receiver (I also replaced my optical cable, to no avail, of course). When he didn't take me up on the offer I made a video of the problem to demonstrate how it occurs in real-time, i.e. if I back up the DVR the dropout will usually NOT appear in the same spot -- it moves dynamically for 'who-knows-what' reason during playback. I can't post a URL (because I'm a new member), but you can find the video here if you want to watch -- it's at vimeo 5626357.

3) I've read elsewhere (sorry, I didn't save the URL) that there is a problem with the DVR's optical audio output "overloading the buffer," or something to that effect. I also discovered that there was a similar problem with audio dropouts via the HDMI output in the past, which Dish acknowledged and fixed in a software update.

I just don't understand how Dish Network can insist that I'm the only one experiencing the problem. That's just crazy! The relatively low report rate probably has more to do with the fact (I'm guessing here) that the majority of subscribers use the HDMI output rather than optical for audio. One of the support reps (for whom rebooting, of course, is the solution to just about everything) actually offered up the opinion that "those posts you're seeing are probably just our competitors trying to bad-mouth us." Puh-leeeaaze!

I'm planning to continue hammering this engineering-level guy who I've stumbled onto for awhile, and will insist on contacting his supervisor (and his supervisor, and so on) until someone acknowledges the problem. I've been a loyal Dish customer for more than six years. But if this problem continues much longer without any acknowledgment (let alone resolution) in sight, that may need to change.

lloyd

P.S. If you're experiencing this problem, too, please reply to this thread so I can forward it to Dish Network (hopefully proving once and for all that it's not just me). thanks!!

 

[highdefjeff]

(Atlanta Dish Network Subscriber)

I'm on my third receiver in two months (two 722s and now a 722k). All three suffer from sporadic audio dropouts on certain (and ONLY those few) stations. All but one (Comedy Channel) are HD (e.g. Fox News, Paladia sp?, etc.)

Dish Network tech support has no record of the problem even being reported by anyone else (yet my installer said he's heard it from more than a few customers). Not to mention that a google search shows roughly 1,600 references to this problem on various forums.

I have been in contact with someone in the engineering dept of Dish Network. He seemed to take a serious (and genuine) interest early on, but then ignored me for a few weeks and, just yesterday, came back with the idiotic statement that "You are the ONLY customer who has reported this problem and we can't duplicate this in our lab. But we continue to discuss it in our weekly meeting." {yeah right..}

1) I originally sent him the google search which clearly demonstrated that many have reported the problem before me (and for the 622 model as well). He has apparently decided to ignore that minor detail, something I find unacceptably lame and bordering on insulting.

2) I offered to have someone come to my home to experience the problem first-hand. Since it only affects a handful of stations,and consistently so, the problem clearly does NOT lie post-receiver (I also replaced my optical cable, to no avail, of course). When he didn't take me up on the offer I made a video of the problem to demonstrate how it occurs in real-time, i.e. if I back up the DVR the dropout will usually NOT appear in the same spot -- it moves dynamically for 'who-knows-what' reason during playback. I can't post a URL (because I'm a new member), but you can find the video here if you want to watch -- it's at vimeo 5626357.

3) I've read elsewhere (sorry, I didn't save the URL) that there is a problem with the DVR's optical audio output "overloading the buffer," or something to that effect. I also discovered that there was a similar problem with audio dropouts via the HDMI output in the past, which Dish acknowledged and fixed in a software update.

I just don't understand how Dish Network can insist that I'm the only one experiencing the problem. That's just crazy! The relatively low report rate probably has more to do with the fact (I'm guessing here) that the majority of subscribers use the HDMI output rather than optical for audio. One of the support reps (for whom rebooting, of course, is the solution to just about everything) actually offered up the opinion that "those posts you're seeing are probably just our competitors trying to bad-mouth us." Puh-leeeaaze!

I'm planning to continue hammering this engineering-level guy who I've stumbled onto for awhile, and will insist on contacting his supervisor (and his supervisor, and so on) until someone acknowledges the problem. I've been a loyal Dish customer for more than six years. But if this problem continues much longer without any acknowledgment (let alone resolution) in sight, that may need to change.

lloyd

P.S. If you're experiencing this problem, too, please reply to this thread so I can forward it to Dish Network (hopefully proving once and for all that it's not just me). thanks!!

If you would provide your signal readings for the satellite(s) and transponder(s) and signal strength on the problem channels, it would certainly help make a determination. If your signal strength is under 55 for those affected, it is your signal.
If you had said it was across-the-board drop outs, I'd say check your connections (coaxial) for short needles (short coaxial needles are a major cause of digital audio problems). Since it is specifically on limited channels, it is most likely that your signal is compromised by noise or not peaked regarding the HD satellite responsible.

Your not alone LLoyd!

 

[lam23]

Thanks, Jeff! I can't get the signal strength numbers right now but I do know that they're very high. Dish Network sent one of their best installers (after two previous attempts to solve the problem had failed) and he peaked the dish which got the signal strength up from the high-50's to, as best I can recall, 70-something. He was confident that signal strength was not the issue. I'm (regrettably) beginning to wonder if the problem MIGHT be in my 5-year old, non-HDMI audio receiver/dolby circuit after all. I just can't imagine a scenario under which it would discriminate against only a few stations and consistently so. How could the receiver possibly dislike FOX NEWS but not MSNBC, corrupting the audio stream in the one but not the other? Wait .. that might have been a foolish question <g>. Seriously, if my problem IS in the receiver there's something very peculiar going on. Maybe I'll borrow another/newer audio receiver to prove -- at least to myself -- that the problem lies elsewhere. Thanks again for your reply!
lloyd
P.S. Coax and other cables have all been changed out to no avail.

 

[rdinkel]

"How could the receiver possibly dislike FOX NEWS but not MSNBC?"

Perhaps your receiver was built on the Left Coast?? LOL

 

[whatchel1]

(Atlanta Dish Network Subscriber)

I'm on my third receiver in two months (two 722s and now a 722k). All three suffer from sporadic audio dropouts on certain (and ONLY those few) stations. All but one (Comedy Channel) are HD (e.g. Fox News, Paladia sp?, etc.)

Dish Network tech support has no record of the problem even being reported by anyone else (yet my installer said he's heard it from more than a few customers). Not to mention that a google search shows roughly 1,600 references to this problem on various forums.

I have been in contact with someone in the engineering dept of Dish Network. He seemed to take a serious (and genuine) interest early on, but then ignored me for a few weeks and, just yesterday, came back with the idiotic statement that "You are the ONLY customer who has reported this problem and we can't duplicate this in our lab. But we continue to discuss it in our weekly meeting." {yeah right..}

1) I originally sent him the google search which clearly demonstrated that many have reported the problem before me (and for the 622 model as well). He has apparently decided to ignore that minor detail, something I find unacceptably lame and bordering on insulting.

2) I offered to have someone come to my home to experience the problem first-hand. Since it only affects a handful of stations,and consistently so, the problem clearly does NOT lie post-receiver (I also replaced my optical cable, to no avail, of course). When he didn't take me up on the offer I made a video of the problem to demonstrate how it occurs in real-time, i.e. if I back up the DVR the dropout will usually NOT appear in the same spot -- it moves dynamically for 'who-knows-what' reason during playback. I can't post a URL (because I'm a new member), but you can find the video here if you want to watch -- it's at vimeo 5626357.

3) I've read elsewhere (sorry, I didn't save the URL) that there is a problem with the DVR's optical audio output "overloading the buffer," or something to that effect. I also discovered that there was a similar problem with audio dropouts via the HDMI output in the past, which Dish acknowledged and fixed in a software update.

I just don't understand how Dish Network can insist that I'm the only one experiencing the problem. That's just crazy! The relatively low report rate probably has more to do with the fact (I'm guessing here) that the majority of subscribers use the HDMI output rather than optical for audio. One of the support reps (for whom rebooting, of course, is the solution to just about everything) actually offered up the opinion that "those posts you're seeing are probably just our competitors trying to bad-mouth us." Puh-leeeaaze!

I'm planning to continue hammering this engineering-level guy who I've stumbled onto for awhile, and will insist on contacting his supervisor (and his supervisor, and so on) until someone acknowledges the problem. I've been a loyal Dish customer for more than six years. But if this problem continues much longer without any acknowledgment (let alone resolution) in sight, that may need to change.

lloyd

P.S. If you're experiencing this problem, too, please reply to this thread so I can forward it to Dish Network (hopefully proving once and for all that it's not just me). thanks!!

How's the digital audio set in you menu's? Paladia may not be drop outs at all; That is how they "edit bad words" from songs and makes it just F'n irritating to listen to. One night was trying to watch to Amy Winehouse concert (at 3 in the A.M.) & I would say 1/4 of the audio was "bleeped" by them muting the audio.

 

[lam23]

How's the digital audio set in you menu's? Paladia may not be drop outs at all; That is how they "edit bad words" from songs and makes it just F'n irritating to listen to. One night was trying to watch to Amy Winehouse concert (at 3 in the A.M.) & I would say 1/4 of the audio was "bleeped" by them muting the audio.

A good suggestion but, unfortunately, not the case here. One night I was trying to watch a Jeff Beck/Eric Clapton concert. No f%$@s there and, at the time, no vocals either. Just the same annoying dropouts...

 

[bookworm370]

I'm glad someone posted this problem.

I don't get complete dropouts (no audio) but get a very noticeable drop in volume from anywhere from 3-7 seconds. I tried it last night with my analog sound level meter set on dampening mode. The 'dropouts' are in the 6-9 db range (hard to measure because it's not a constant tone).

I thought it was just the channels for a while but it doesn't happen at all with my 622 or 612.

Config:

722K
HDMI direct to Samsung PN42B450 Plasma

622
Component and TOS Link (Fiber) to Sony XBR 57 RP TV
Sound supplied by Sony STR-925 Receiver.
No dropouts either thru the TOS link or the analog stereo outputs (TOS link to receiver, analog direct to TV in case I don't want the AV equipment on)

612
RF modulated (ch 70). No dropouts on any TV or channel.

So, if you're not experiencing a complete loss of volume then I have the same issue. Except the only cable coming out of the 722k to the TV is a single high end HDMI 1.3b cable.

 

[highdefjeff]

Thanks, Jeff! I can't get the signal strength numbers right now but I do know that they're very high. Dish Network sent one of their best installers (after two previous attempts to solve the problem had failed) and he peaked the dish which got the signal strength up from the high-50's to, as best I can recall, 70-something. He was confident that signal strength was not the issue. I'm (regrettably) beginning to wonder if the problem MIGHT be in my 5-year old, non-HDMI audio receiver/dolby circuit after all. I just can't imagine a scenario under which it would discriminate against only a few stations and consistently so. (Sometimes interference is caused at or near a specific frequency, from a nearby wireless router or other noise emitter, causing blackouts of only a transponder or two.) How could the receiver possibly dislike FOX NEWS but not MSNBC, corrupting the audio stream in the one but not the other? Wait .. that might have been a foolish question <g>. Seriously, if my problem IS in the receiver there's something very peculiar going on. Maybe I'll borrow another/newer audio receiver to prove -- at least to myself -- that the problem lies elsewhere. Thanks again for your reply!
lloyd
P.S. Coax and other cables have all been changed out to no avail.

Do you have any other receivers? Is/are the 722's an upgrade or new install?

 

[highdefjeff]

I'm glad someone posted this problem.

I don't get complete dropouts (no audio) but get a very noticeable drop in volume from anywhere from 3-7 seconds. I tried it last night with my analog sound level meter set on dampening mode. The 'dropouts' are in the 6-9 db range (hard to measure because it's not a constant tone).

I thought it was just the channels for a while but it doesn't happen at all with my 622 or 612.

Config:

722K
HDMI direct to Samsung PN42B450 Plasma

622
Component and TOS Link (Fiber) to Sony XBR 57 RP TV
Sound supplied by Sony STR-925 Receiver.
No dropouts either thru the TOS link or the analog stereo outputs (TOS link to receiver, analog direct to TV in case I don't want the AV equipment on)

612
RF modulated (ch 70). No dropouts on any TV or channel.

So, if you're not experiencing a complete loss of volume then I have the same issue. Except the only cable coming out of the 722k to the TV is a single high end HDMI 1.3b cable.

Have you swapped places of the 622 and the 722k to check to see if the problem follows the 722k (most likely), or if the problem stays in the original location of the 722?

What channels are you having problems with?

 

[HARLINGEN TSR]

three words for this situation..... Known Product Issue

 

[bookworm370]

three words for this situation..... Known Product Issue

Thanks, As long as it's known I'm sure that they will be addressing it as it's their now flagship receiver (at least until the 922 comes out).

 

[highdefjeff]

Here is an interesting article about how one broadcast company solved their issue.

LINEAR ACOUSTIC AUDIO PROCESSING SOLUTIONS RESOLVE LOUDNESS ISSUES, MANAGE DOLBY® METADATA FOR SOUTH KOREA?S QOOK TV | BriefingRoom on Broadcast Engineering Magazine

I would say that "there's the answer" and be done with it, except for the fact that reports of sound variances are reported one way on one dish, and another way on another dish (some say HD is louder, some say SD is louder, some only have a few compromised channels).

If all of your reports on sound level were even slightly consistent with each other, then we could say it was a Dish broadcasting problem. Since not everyone has this problem, and since not every 722 has this problem, then there must be more to it.

 

[catnap1972]

I know some channels do definitely have issues with sound quality. Others have said they found that TNT is screwy at times (and I've also seen...erm...heard it first-hand), and I found that there were problems with GSN a few weeks ago with dropouts (I had Dish Quality check it from their end, but they said they found nothing...someone did resolve the issue but I have no idea who).

And like the other poster said (and I as well as others have complained), they've definitely got a problem with the SD volume levels vs. the HD levels (across the board and not limited to just one channel). Shouldn't have to crank the volume up to 30+ on the HD channels and end up blasting yourself out of the seat if you change it to an SD channel.

 

[lam23]

Here is an interesting article about how one broadcast company solved their issue.

LINEAR ACOUSTIC AUDIO PROCESSING SOLUTIONS RESOLVE LOUDNESS ISSUES, MANAGE DOLBY® METADATA FOR SOUTH KOREA?S QOOK TV | BriefingRoom on Broadcast Engineering Magazine

I would say that "there's the answer" and be done with it, except for the fact that reports of sound variances are reported one way on one dish, and another way on another dish (some say HD is louder, some say SD is louder, some only have a few compromised channels).

If all of your reports on sound level were even slightly consistent with each other, then we could say it was a Dish broadcasting problem. Since not everyone has this problem, and since not every 722 has this problem, then there must be more to it.

Yes ... but with respect to my specific audio "dropout" problem (not volume fluctuations between channels), couldn't it be that there is a prevailing issue with the digital OPTICAL output of the 722(k)?

My impression is that most people are using HDMI. Moreover, there was a problem with audio dropouts/HDMI in an earlier version of the software which Dish did acknowledge and correct. I suspect that a similar defect remains in the optical output stage. I'm guessing here, of course, but this theory seems reasonable to me. No?

lloyd

 

[highdefjeff]

Yes ... but with respect to my specific audio "dropout" problem (not volume fluctuations between channels), couldn't it be that there is a prevailing issue with the digital OPTICAL output of the 722(k)(Yes)?

My impression is that most people are using HDMI. Moreover, there was a problem with audio dropouts/HDMI in an earlier version of the software which Dish did acknowledge and correct (Correct.). I suspect that a similar defect remains in the optical output stage. I'm guessing here, of course, but this theory seems reasonable to me. No?

lloyd

Yes, lloyd, a completely reasonable theory.
I'd still like to rule out signal...have you gotten some signal strengths for us?

and

Are you sure your cable is RG6 and that all connections are tight; and that the needles protrude at least 1/16 inch beyond the fittings?

 

[lam23]

Yes, lloyd, a completely reasonable theory.
I'd still like to rule out signal...have you gotten some signal strengths for us?

and

Are you sure your cable is RG6 and that all connections are tight; and that the needles protrude at least 1/16 inch beyond the fittings?

Thanks, again, Jeff fork continuing to indulge me (seriously). As to your points:

1. I would love to have included the signal strengths but, like before, the DVR is recording a program now so I'll have to remember to check these and report back later (but, again, I'm sure they're plenty high).
2. I don't know what RG6 is but, as I recall, Dish Network provided it. Will there be a number/model listed on the cable somewhere?? If so, I can look. If not, how can find out?
3. The needles all protrude what looks to be 1/16" or so, yes.

Finally, I ordered a new A/V receiver today (Pioneer with HDMI) in order to perhaps get around the optical issue altogether (presuming that's what's going on here). I'm hoping/betting that I'll be able to use the HDMI for audio while still using the component video for direct hookup to my TV (actually, to the BNC converter box ... long story, you don't want to know ... suffice to say I own the very first HDTV produced by Mitsubishi in 1998, a 70" better-than-you-might-think rear projection unit).

More later (and, thanks, again!),
lloyd

////////// following up /////////

Signal levels:

119 @ 75
110 @ 70
129 @ 58 (not very high, is this a problem??)

 

[lam23]

Do you have any other receivers? Is/are the 722's an upgrade or new install?

Sorry, I missed this earlier. This is an upgrade (from a 622). And, btw, I had a dropout problem with the 622 as well, although it was very infrequent and only noticed on The Comedy Channel. It was so infrequent, in fact, that I never bothered to address it. The problem became consistently rampant (but, again, only a few a stations) when I got the 722, then a replacement 722, and finally a 722k, all of which have been problematic.

lloyd

 

[whatchel1]

New A/V rec

Sorry, I missed this earlier. This is an upgrade (from a 622). And, btw, I had a dropout problem with the 622 as well, although it was very infrequent and only noticed on The Comedy Channel. It was so infrequent, in fact, that I never bothered to address it. The problem became consistently rampant (but, again, only a few a stations) when I got the 722, then a replacement 722, and finally a 722k, all of which have been problematic.

lloyd

I'll be interested in seeing what happens when you put the new Pioneer into the system. Beginning to there is a possibility of the old one was having input over load issue. Was the infrequent becoming more often with the 622 as time went by?

 

[highdefjeff]

Sorry, I missed this earlier. This is an upgrade (from a 622). And, btw, I had a dropout problem with the 622 as well, although it was very infrequent and only noticed on The Comedy Channel. It was so infrequent, in fact, that I never bothered to address it. The problem became consistently rampant (but, again, only a few a stations) when I got the 722, then a replacement 722, and finally a 722k, all of which have been problematic.

lloyd

From my experience (though not having seen your system) your issue is signal. Here's why:

First, 58 doesn't satisfy me as being high enough to be above the "cliff" (Which is actually a waterfall-not a cliff...)

Second, before Dish changed the meter (to "even" out the signal across receivers), I had identified a definite correlation and pattern to the differing values.

The short story is this:
The lower the receiver model number is, the higher the signal quality reading will (would) be. For example, a 301, 311 always read the highest of all.

And,

The higher the receiver model number went, the lower the signal quality readings went.

That principal hasn't changed even though the signal meter has changed.
With the old signal meter, receivers still give a true reading. (Dish has caused the higher signals of the simpler receivers to artificially reflect the lower signal values of the HD receivers.)


This WAS great troubleshooting information...

and if you want to know why there is a model number/signal quality connection, I've described it here: Why haven't we heard this before?

Your new information is all I need to make this diagnosis.


Knowing that each higher numbered receiver needs more signal than the one below it; and now knowing, that you upgraded from a 622 (which needs a little less signal than any 700 series receiver; or conversely stated: knowing that a 722 needs just a little more signal than a 622)

and

knowing that you are not experiencing a NEW problem, but rather, an INCREASE in a previous problem starting with fewer drops and fewer affected channels;

and knowing that 58 isn't very good;

I am 99.9% certain that a slight tweak of your dish will solve your issue. Here's how to check it.

First, on your dish, mark your initial elevation and azimuth with indelible marker or screwdriver so that you can return it to its current position.

Next, don't concern yourself with 119 and 110 but peak your dish on the 129 satellite.

Finally, watch your system until you either:

1. see your current issues repeated

or

2. you are convinced that the problems have ceased.

If you find answer 1, then I'm wrong, it is something else, but if as I expect, you find answer 2 to be the case, then it is your signal and you will know it - no matter what Dish says, and have proof.

(Please make note of the new 129 signal reading after peaking for this experiment, before .)

 

[whatchel1]

BULL

highdefjeff you just don't learn anything and keep spouting the sos over & over. 58 is plenty of signal for the system to give him plenty of head room. I'm one step from putting you on my ignore list. But then I wouldn't be able to see the crap that you are trying to feed the rest of the forum. I try to give everyone the benefit of a doubt but you have now gone past that. You just don't understand anything we have been telling you and keep coming up with this too little SS. This guy does not have too little SS at 58. Gez I just read that article you refer to and it was your own site so you have no outside source that verifies your statements. Are you on this forum to promote your site or something?

BTW I walked away from my PC for a while to think about if I should post this or not. I decided that I should due to the fact it is just junk that you are posting here and may even be trying to self promote yourself in the Sat Guys forum. With the change in the signal meter reading the old 70 just isn't relevant anymore. So until you come up with an outside source that can verify this stuff you are just spouting BS to the general public.