Azbox Elite USALS/DiSEqC 1.2 control

[guapoharry]

Frankly, I don't understand this problem. For me, the Azbox seems to work like any other receiver.

Used the Azbox with both DG280 and HH90 motors.

I use USALS setting. I don't use a channel editor.

If I need to fine tune the dish longitude, I add or subtract a few tenths of a degree from my location until the SQ is best. Then I don't have to screw around with setting a position for each satellite. Latitude is set correctly on the motor mount and the pole is plumb. All of the satellites just come in... 63ºW through 129ºW

 

[knowmiddlename]

It's not that bad. Just no docs, trial and error, then things change on the next patch.

That's the whole thing about beta

That's why I'm glad for the new Azboz forum. each one teach one!

You are 100% correct. I'm glad we have excellent support here at Satelliteguys. Glad to see a lot of us likes a good challenge and share our findings with one another.

 

[putney]

Frankly, I don't understand this problem. For me, the Azbox seems to work like any other receiver.

Used the Azbox with both DG280 and HH90 motors.

I use USALS setting. I don't use a channel editor.

If I need to fine tune the dish longitude, I add or subtract a few tenths of a degree from my location until the SQ is best. Then I don't have to screw around with setting a position for each satellite. Latitude is set correctly on the motor mount and the pole is plumb. All of the satellites just come in... 63ºW through 129ºW

Yes my universal LNB (centered) uses USALS. But my C-band and circular LNBs are 10º on each side.....so it's DiSEqC or set up dummy sats to use USALS

 

[AcWxRadar]

My biggest problem right now is a USALS/DiSEqC 1.2 thing. I'm using he latest FW, 9.3686. ...and yes, I've read where others have used a different box for positioning, and I'll probably end up doing that, but for now I want to try to get this box to work on it's own.

When I use DiSEqC, and save my position (auto) then go to select a channel the motor won't move. Maybe I need to select and save a location number?

In USALS the motor moves. But USALS doesn't let me fine tune a location without changing it's name (sorting slot). Lets say I'm selecting 119ºw. My circular LNB is 10º off center from my linear LNB. So using USALS I need to set it at 109º. Now my 119º sorts at 109º. My C-band (mini bud) LNB is 10º in the other direction, so it gets messy using USALS.

Is anyone using USALS found a happy way to use a motor?

it's DiSEqC or set up dummy sats to use USALS

Putney,

Sorry, I never came back to this thread way at the beginning. I was on my way to work, then I lost track of this thread. That was a long time ago!

Motoring is working very well for me. I use all USALS settings except for the sats that are out of reach in USALS, then I switch to DiSEqC 1.2.

Using "dummy" sats with USALS is a good option. With the AZBox you can have virtually an unlimited number of sats.

Walrus and I were doing this with our Coolsats to keep "FEED" TPs and channels separate from normal channels and then separate from C-band stuff. But, you run out of slots for sats in the Coolsats.

For the AZBox, as far as I know, the satellite list is nearly unlimited so you can add all you want, even if the sat you add is at the same orbital position as three or five others.

This is the route that I would use, just personally.

When you get into DiSEqC 1.2 motor control on the AZBox, I have a bit of trouble. It isn't as simple as I wish it could be.

For one thing, the signal meter doesn't respond well. It doesn't update really well. It might be a little too jumpy to really get a good idea if you are improving your dish/motor setting. I also think that there is a glitch in the software where the meter does not update at all, so you have to back out of a menu and start over again to get the meter to register again.

There is also a problem in the DiSEqC 1.2 positioning menu where, if you are not careful what you are doing, the TP that you selected to locate a signal from will revert to a default TP (first TP in the list). This can be frustrating as the motor menu screen hides the TP selection and you have to back out one or two steps in order to reset this TP selection and start over. I find this to be a pain.

I have been using my Coolsat on the loop-out when hunting and pecking for sats with DiSEqC 1.2 control. But, I found a problem with this that is really bizarre. This is hard to explain, very hard!

If the AZBox is set to a H TP on a specific satellite, you would think that the loop-out might only allow the Coolsat receiver to detect H TP signals from that particular satellite. This is not the case. Well, it is but isn't. The Coolsat can see or detect signals, but it sees them as VERTICAL, when they should be HORIZONTAL. It is just a mess! I am not even going to bother to explain it further as it is that confusing to me and I can see it first hand!

Basically, DON'T use the loop out feature of the AZBox to search for specific channels (scanning purposes).

What I am going to do in this case, in the future, is run a separate line in from the dish to feed another receiver, and forget the loop-out. I will have to use the loop out for this winter as right now, everything is buried under snow drifts up to my chest in some spots.

RADAR

 

[B.J.]

I have been using my Coolsat on the loop-out when hunting and pecking for sats with DiSEqC 1.2 control. But, I found a problem with this that is really bizarre. This is hard to explain, very hard!

If the AZBox is set to a H TP on a specific satellite, you would think that the loop-out might only allow the Coolsat receiver to detect H TP signals from that particular satellite. This is not the case. Well, it is but isn't. The Coolsat can see or detect signals, but it sees them as VERTICAL, when they should be HORIZONTAL. It is just a mess! I am not even going to bother to explain it further as it is that confusing to me and I can see it first hand!

Basically, DON'T use the loop out feature of the AZBox t
.......

? I use the loop out of the Azbox all the time. It works fine.
It is simply not possible for the loop-thru to change a horizontal IF into a vertical IF, as you seem to be saying. Although I'm not sure that is actually what you are saying. It is possible and likely, that if you have the Azbox on horizontal, that the COolsat will *THINK* that the channels are vertical, since it doesn't have any way of changing the polarity. Ie, I'm not sure whether when you say "it sees them as VERTICAL", you mean that the Coolsat sees vertical transponders, or if you mean that it thinks the horizontal channels are vertical.

The only way I would think that you could see vertical channels on the Coolsat would be if you weren't using a DC-block, and the Azbox didn't have the passthru isolated from the DC on your Coolsat, and somehow the two DC power supplies were fighting each other. But I would really expect the Azbox to win, and send 18V to the lnbf, which would give you horizontal. Also, if that were happening, you'd be seeing vertical transponders on the Azbox too.

So anyway, that IS bizzarre, and I'd be interested in specifics of what transponders you're seeing on each receiver, and whether you're using a DC block or not.

 

[AcWxRadar]

? I use the loop out of the Azbox all the time. It works fine.
It is simply not possible for the loop-thru to change a horizontal IF into a vertical IF, as you seem to be saying. Although I'm not sure that is actually what you are saying. It is possible and likely, that if you have the Azbox on horizontal, that the COolsat will *THINK* that the channels are vertical, since it doesn't have any way of changing the polarity. Ie, I'm not sure whether when you say "it sees them as VERTICAL", you mean that the Coolsat sees vertical transponders, or if you mean that it thinks the horizontal channels are vertical.

The only way I would think that you could see vertical channels on the Coolsat would be if you weren't using a DC-block, and the Azbox didn't have the passthru isolated from the DC on your Coolsat, and somehow the two DC power supplies were fighting each other. But I would really expect the Azbox to win, and send 18V to the lnbf, which would give you horizontal. Also, if that were happening, you'd be seeing vertical transponders on the Azbox too.

So anyway, that IS bizzarre, and I'd be interested in specifics of what transponders you're seeing on each receiver, and whether you're using a DC block or not.

B.J.

Yes, it is VERY bizarre and not at all what I expected. I am very perplexed by the results.

I will try to make it brief and tell you the straight poop.


If I select a particular sat on my AZBox, and a specific Horizontal TP on that sat, and I attempt to view that TP on my Coolsat 5K, with the 5K connected to the loop-out of the AZBox, I will detect no valid signals. If I disconnect both boxes from this scheme and connect the Coolsat directly to the dish, it picks up that sat and Horizontal TP signal just fine.

If I go back to the original scheme, using the loop out of my AZBox, but now switch the AZBox to a VERTICAL TP, then the Coolsat will pick up that HORIZONTAL TP and the channel will come in.

Right off, this sounds wrong to me, but that is what is going on.

Now, things get more strange than this. I leave the AZBox on a Horizontal TP and I go to the Coolsat (on the loop-out connection) and blind scan that satellite. I detect all VERTICAL TPs with the Coolsat, but no Horizontal ones. However, all the frequencies registered are those for HORIZONTAL TPs. But, they register as if they were VERTICAL TPs. They seem to work the same, as far as I can tell and as long as I leave the two units connected this way it works fine until I change the TP polarity on the AZBox, but I know that this is wrong. It seems backwards right off.

If I disconnect them and connect the Coolsat to the dish straight on, then it IS wrong and the channels are not on the proper TP polarities.

I kid you not, this is actually happening and I know that it makes no sense whatsoever. But, this is what I am experiencing.

I may be a wild and crazy one, but I am not nuts. Trying to figure this one out might make me nuts, however.

You would have to experience it for yourself. It's just that unusual and well, it's just plain screwy!

RADAR

 

[starman345]

This is odd. I run my Prof 7301 card from the loop out on the Azbox and don't see that behaviour. Everything seems to work normally. Are you putting the Azbox in standby when using your Coolsat?

 

[Lak7]

I run a Vangage via the AZBox Loop Out and have not seen that.

Think it is possible that the Coolsat is "overpowering" the AZBox?

 

[AcWxRadar]

This is odd. I run my Prof 7301 card from the loop out on the Azbox and don't see that behaviour. Everything seems to work normally. Are you putting the Azbox in standby when using your Coolsat?

I have tried this with the AZBox in STBY. I cannot recall what it does precisely, but it still isn't quite right. If I turn the AZBox OFF, then whatever is on the loop out is off, too. No signal, the AZBox needed to be ON or at least in STBY mode for the loop out to work. That is also a bugger for me, as I don't think that this is right either.

Because it was so screwy, I now switch the connections of the RF cable and use them separately.

RADAR

 

[AcWxRadar]

Think it is possible that the Coolsat is "overpowering" the AZBox?

I am not certain what is going on here. The AZBox keeps on working just like it should - no problems. It is only the box on the loop-out that messes up.

RADAR

 

[AcWxRadar]

I feel a little bad here folks.

I feel like my information is hijacking Putney's original post.

Ice, If we can continue this discussion, would you slide it off to its own separate thread? Post 24 through 31.

And, in all honesty, I have no problems with what is weird here for me. My system works just fine outside of this oddity.

I was just making a comment and I really don't wish to distract from Putney's post. We can discuss this odd dillemna separately if any one wants to.

RADAR

 

[Yurek99]

Let me share some experience with AZBOX, USALS and DiSEqC :

1.My motor isn't set perfectly and for the time being, Motor is STAB 120 (still waitng for replacement of DG380) and for my due south sats, I'm able to use USALS, but for more western sats AZBox is set to DiSEqC.

2. For DiSEqC (I notice since last few versions of FW) you have to save settings of position (auto), and after saving choose 'go to position' again. Otherwise motor will not move.
3. To my understanding DiSEqC position is saved in motor itself. AZBox is only calling motor to go to specific position

Anyhow...
My primary box is AZBox, and Viewsat MAX is a slave. Evertything is working OK.
I'm located @ 75W and go from 63 to 129 W

Re MAZ, I have MAZ 2.2 and it is working OK for me. I do channels backup almost each day ( scanning lot for news feeds).
BTY: it was repored on another forum that lastest version of FW (0.9.3877) have a tendecy to change sat position, so please check if this doesn't efect you
Hope these helps

 

[knowmiddlename]

B.J.
Now, things get more strange than this. I leave the AZBox on a Horizontal TP and I go to the Coolsat (on the loop-out connection) and blind scan that satellite. I detect all VERTICAL TPs with the Coolsat, but no Horizontal ones. However, all the frequencies registered are those for HORIZONTAL TPs. But, they register as if they were VERTICAL TPs. They seem to work the same, as far as I can tell and as long as I leave the two units connected this way it works fine until I change the TP polarity on the AZBox, but I know that this is wrong. It seems backwards right off.
RADAR

The CS5000 can't communicate directly to the LNBF via the AZBox, so that sounds normal to me. Mine does the same thing.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Let me share some experience with AZBOX, USALS and DiSEqC :

3. To my understanding DiSEqC position is saved in motor itself. AZBox is only calling motor to go to specific position

I am off on another tangent here, so bare with me!.........

This is my understanding, too. The motor itself stores the positions. It (the motor itself) usually comes with a "built-in list" or table of sat positions, but you override these positions in it's (the motor's) memory as you go and set up each individual sat with NEW DiSEqC 1.2 coordinates as you need to.

If you have to reset the motor for some reason, let's say it bumps up against the eaves on your house and faults out due to an overcurrent limit. If you reset the motor in such a case, all the location settings for each satellite will be erased and restored to the factory default position list that was preset from the factory.

If you adopt the practice of using USALS to operate your motor, which I highly recommend, then you will not overwrite the factory motor positioning program within the motor at any time.

USALS, which is nothing more than a math program, will take your latitude and longitude coordinates and the orbital position (degree) of the sat and calculate the position of that sat and send a DiSEqC command to the motor and tell the motor to MOVE to a specific location that is already stored in its memory, somewhere.

The motor understands the command and moves to the position (already recorded in its memory from the factory) according to the specific DiSEqC command that the receiver sends to it.

When you utilize DiSEqC 1.2 motor commands to position your motor, you must be aware that there are commands involved such as "RECALCULATE and STORE" or something to that effect. What this is doing is overwriting the factory preset positions to your own "user" defined position of the satellite.

Basically, we are working with a programmable servo motor. That is the best analogy I can use to explain it.

It (the motor) has it's own encoder and knows how many steps or revolutions it is between one sat position and another. It knows where HOME is and how far it can travel in each direction by counting the steps (or digital pulses).

It is pretty simple, but it only operates in two ways.

1] Utilize the resident or stored positions within the motor and send a proper command to the motor so that the motor will position itself where you desire it to. (USALS)

or

2] Drive the motor to a new, unrecorded position and tell the motor to "recalculate and save" this "NEW" position as a new position program. (DiSEqC 1.2 positioning). One that you can return to later by commanding the motor to move to stored position X or Y.

In my way of thinking it out boils down to this...

USALS: Hopping into a cab in NYC and telling the driver to take me to a specific hotel. He knows the way!

DiSEqC 1.2: Hopping into a cab in NYC with a map and trying to figure out where I want to be and telling the cab driver how to get there, according to my own directions. Then, expecting him to remember the same route the next time I visit.

I don't know if this is the best time or place to try to explain my view between the two types of motor control logic, but.... I was just in the mood to try.

Does it make any sense, or better sense to anyone?

I apologize if I let you down, but it was the best way I could come up with to explain it in layman's terms. I am hoping that I make some sense, but I probably sound really lame.

I will let you all be the judges.

RADAR

 

[B.J.]

I am off on another tangent here, so bare with me!.........

This is my understanding, too. The motor itself stores the positions. It (the motor itself) usually comes with a "built-in list" or table of sat positions, but you override these positions in it's (the motor's) memory as you go and set up each individual sat with NEW DiSEqC 1.2 coordinates as you need to.

If you have to reset the motor for some reason, let's say it bumps up against the eaves on your house and faults out due to an overcurrent limit. If you reset the motor in such a case, all the location settings for each satellite will be erased and restored to the factory default position list that was preset from the factory.

I think that the motors come with something like 50 or 60 positions. I don't know if there is a preset position for each, or if they are set to zero or what. But yes, each time you save in DiseqC-1.2 mode, it saves the current position in one of those 50 or 60 sat numbers in the motor, and all the program does, is tell the motor to go to saved location 28 or something like that. I'm not sure about the reset thing. Seems like different motors have different levels of resets, some of which would probably wipe out the saved values as you say. In other instances, it might end up in a situation whereby the positions are all shifted, or out of sync, in which case there is a resync command (or recalculate as you mentioned) whereby you can recover your positions relative to what levels of reset do what. But all this is probably motor specific.

If you adopt the practice of using USALS to operate your motor, which I highly recommend, then you will not overwrite the factory motor positioning program within the motor at any time.

USALS, which is nothing more than a math program, will take your latitude and longitude coordinates and the orbital position (degree) of the sat and calculate the position of that sat and send a DiSEqC command to the motor and tell the motor to MOVE to a specific location that is already stored in its memory, somewhere.

USALS is really telling the motor to move a calculated number of steps or degrees, not to some stored location.
Also, this number of degrees is relative to the position that the motor understands as it's 0.0 , true south position. This CAN be messed up inside the motor. Ie, the motor can get in a situation where it thinks that it's zero is at the wrong place. In that case, USALS will be off, and you either have to calibrate the 0.0 position, or lie to the receiver about what your longitude is. Typically a full reset with this condition will reset the 0.0 position to wherever the motor is currently located, so you have to be careful to manually move the motor to the true 0.0 position (use scale on motor) before doing the reset.

...
.....

It (the motor) has it's own encoder and knows how many steps or revolutions it is between one sat position and another. It knows where HOME is and how far it can travel in each direction by counting the steps (or digital pulses).

This HOME analogy is what I was referring to above relative to motors forgetting where 0.0 or home is. That messes up USALS, but doesn't seem to mess up DiseqC-1.2 as much, although it seems like it should.

It is pretty simple, but it only operates in two ways.

1] Utilize the resident or stored positions within the motor and send a proper command to the motor so that the motor will position itself where you desire it to. (USALS)

or

2] Drive the motor to a new, unrecorded position and tell the motor to "recalculate and save" ...
...

This may be different on different motors, but I don't think you should do a recalculate before a save after driving to a new position. Recalculate, as I mentioned, is for when all the sats get shifted, out of sync in analog terminology. In that situation, you go to a sat, then do a recalculate or resync command, and move that one sat back into the proper place, and the motor will then shift ALL of the sats by that same amount to get everything back correctly. Similar to the motor's 0.0 position getting corrupted in USALS.

USALS: Hopping into a cab in NYC and telling the driver to take me to a specific hotel. He knows the way!

I would have said hopping into a cab and telling the driver to go up the road 5.35 miles. Pretty much the same thing, except it's telling him to go an amount, not to a location.

DiSEqC 1.2: Hopping into a cab in NYC with a map and trying to figure out where I want to be and telling the cab driver how to get there, according to my own directions. Then, expecting him to remember the same route the next time I visit.

I would have given more the response you gave for USALS above, ie you're telling the cab driver to go to a location he knows the way to, because you've told him before.

Again, pretty much the same.

Overall, I agree, that USALS is easier, and you may avoid losing everything if you have to do a full reset, but I've done full hardware resets, and I don't remember it wiping out the stored DiseqC-1.2 values, but it may have.
However as mentioned, USALS gets out of whack whenever the motor forgets where home is, and that has happened to me on several occasions. My motor came from the factory with the HOME 0.0 position in the wrong place, so I quickly started using DiseqC, and I prefer it.

I generally use USALS to get close to the right place, then switch to DiseqC-1.2 and save that position. When my motor forgets where home is, DiseqC-1.2 still usually takes me to the sat, but USALS won't, although sometimes both are affected. When DiseqC-1.2 fails to take me to sats, that is where the quandary starts. Ie the temptation is to just peak and save a new location, however if all the sat positions have moved, it's better to do a recalulate command which will fix ALL the sats, but I'm usually too lazy to check to see if everything is off, so I just save a new position for that one sat. Then later when I do a recalculate, everything else will be OK, but the ones I've re-saved will be off, and need to be resaved again.

That's the main reason for my reply, ie the first thing you said about recalculate and save. Ie you recalculate if all sats are off, and save only if only one sat is off, or if entering a new sat.
Sorry it took so long to get to my point.

 

[B.J.]

B.J.

Yes, it is VERY bizarre and not at all what I expected. I am very perplexed by the results.

I will try to make it brief and tell you the straight poop.


If I select a particular sat on my AZBox, and a specific Horizontal TP on that sat, and I attempt to view that TP on my Coolsat 5K, with the 5K connected to the loop-out of the AZBox, I will detect no valid signals. If I disconnect both boxes from this scheme and connect the Coolsat directly to the dish, it picks up that sat and Horizontal TP signal just fine.

If I go back to the original scheme, using the loop out of my AZBox, but now switch the AZBox to a VERTICAL TP, then the Coolsat will pick up that HORIZONTAL TP and the channel will come in.

Right off, this sounds wrong to me, but that is what is going on.

Now, things get more strange than this. I leave the AZBox on a Horizontal TP and I go to the Coolsat (on the loop-out connection) and blind scan that satellite. I detect all VERTICAL TPs with the Coolsat, but no Horizontal ones. However, all the frequencies registered are those for HORIZONTAL TPs. But, they register as if they were VERTICAL TPs. They seem to work the same, as far as I can tell and as long as I leave the two units connected this way it works fine until I change the TP polarity on the AZBox, but I know that this is wrong. It seems backwards right off.

If I disconnect them and connect the Coolsat to the dish straight on, then it IS wrong and the channels are not on the proper TP polarities.

I kid you not, this is actually happening and I know that it makes no sense whatsoever. But, this is what I am experiencing.

I may be a wild and crazy one, but I am not nuts. Trying to figure this one out might make me nuts, however.

You would have to experience it for yourself. It's just that unusual and well, it's just plain screwy!

RADAR

About 50% of it makes sense, and is normal, ie the part about the channels blind scanning in as vertical. The other half of the observations suggest to me that you are not using a DC-block, and you have a conflict between the 18V being put out by the Azbox and the 18V voltage put out by the Coolsat. I would have expected a problem, if any, to occur when the coolsat was on vertical, or 13V, but perhaps the coolsat is putting out a higher voltage than the Azbox, and it is turning off some diode switch or something.
If you ARE using a DC block, then I'm mystified. If you don't have a DC-block to try, you might try turning off lnb voltage on the Coolsat, and see what happens. I'm not sure that would help, but it might. I'm guessing that if you turn off lnb voltage on the Coolsat, that the Coolsat will receive the horizontal channels on both H or V polarity, ie a bunch of duplicates.

Regardless, it's strange. I use the passthru of my Azbox nearly every day. I don't have any problems, but I'm generally using the Azbox slaved, and I'm also ALWAYS using DC-blocks between ALL receivers. Many people use loop-thrus without DC-blocks with some receivers, but I think it can be dangerous if the receivers don't already have one built in. I think that most receivers will have at least a diode stopping voltage from getting back into the slaved receiver, but if the slaved receiver is putting out more voltage, then it might pass through that diode. I would have thought that this would only happen when the master was on V and the slave on H, and your symptom is the opposite, but perhaps if the slave 18V is higher than the master 18v, perhaps you get a power supply fight???

neat.

 

[Babadem]

All these information will come in handy when my motor setup has been completed.

 

[codzul]

Hi guys, I have the following problem with a Azbox HD Elite to memorize sat positions.

I go to Antenna Setup, select a sat (eg.13.0E), select a tp (eg.11258H), then move dish <>west/east until quality >85%. But when I want to save position it does nothing, I press OK on the "save" and nothing. Does it suppose to stay there in the menu or save&exit. I have to exit to the sat menu by pressing "back" and that is why probably it does not save the position.

Another thing is that I use the "Auto" in the position numbering. Should I use 1,2,3 and so on? But first please tell me if the STB, on the TV screen, or on the 11-digit display of the STB should say "saved ok" or smth like that so I know the position is saved.

Thanks

 

[Lak7]

Try choosing the Position Number, then Save.

 

[AcWxRadar]

Hi guys, I have the following problem with a Azbox HD Elite to memorize sat positions.

I go to Antenna Setup, select a sat (eg.13.0E), select a tp (eg.11258H), then move dish <>west/east until quality >85%. But when I want to save position it does nothing, I press OK on the "save" and nothing. Does it suppose to stay there in the menu or save&exit. I have to exit to the sat menu by pressing "back" and that is why probably it does not save the position.

Another thing is that I use the "Auto" in the position numbering. Should I use 1,2,3 and so on? But first please tell me if the STB, on the TV screen, or on the 11-digit display of the STB should say "saved ok" or smth like that so I know the position is saved.

Thanks

Try choosing the Position Number, then Save.

Codzul,

You may also be required to select RESETTING first, then SAVE. I have been using this on the satellites that I must use DiSEqC 1.2 positioning for and it seems to work well for me.

This RESETTING feature is in the same window box where the SAVE is. It is a hidden menu selection. Once you take your highlight down to SAVE, press the < or > remote buttons and it will navigate through all the options here.

RADAR