blind scan TNAP4

Brct203

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Dec 24, 2016
1,251
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i'm testing this new build of tnap 4 with the new driver and so far so good, T2MI is working fine, and blind scans in general seem ok. To be honnest, i never noticed much difference in the past between the T2MI and non-T2MI drivers when it comes to detecting close narrow TPs like the diginets on 101W.

I need to go through the logs that I saved from multiple blindscans of 40.5W, 61W and 101W using TNAP 3.2 T2MI and non-T2MI, and TNAP4.0 with the new driver, and see if there are any patterns of what is missed and by what image.
 
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johnnynobody

Star Trek fan
Aug 2, 2009
6,758
1,241
USA
I don't know what changed but a blind scan on 97W picked up transponders I couldn't get before. It's a straightforward process so I don't know how I could've possibly messed up.
 

Jim S.

When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes
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Jan 2, 2006
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I don't know what changed but a blind scan on 97W picked up transponders I couldn't get before. It's a straightforward process so I don't know how I could've possibly messed up.

Did you ever get it working properly for all satellites? I have NEVER had any version of TNAP find all horizontal transponders on all satellites with a blind scan. It seems to only affect S2 transponders (97W Ku works right every time), and not always all S2 transponders, but there's definitely a problem with horizontal transponders. It does NOT appear to be a hardware issue because not only can I reliably scan the missed transponders manually, and view channels with a fine steady signal, but I can immediately reboot into ANY other image and blind scan will work fine, then immediately reboot back into TNAP and it won't, on the same satellite.
 

circuitmike

Member
Jul 12, 2021
13
3
Greenfield, MA, USA
Did you ever get it working properly for all satellites? I have NEVER had any version of TNAP find all horizontal transponders on all satellites with a blind scan. It seems to only affect S2 transponders (97W Ku works right every time), and not always all S2 transponders, but there's definitely a problem with horizontal transponders. It does NOT appear to be a hardware issue because not only can I reliably scan the missed transponders manually, and view channels with a fine steady signal, but I can immediately reboot into ANY other image and blind scan will work fine, then immediately reboot back into TNAP and it won't, on the same satellite.

I landed in this thread because I just got a brand new Edison OS Mio+ with TNAP and I've been losing my damned mind trying to diagnose why it's missing horizontal transponders so often. Often it fails to see any H transponders when I do a "horizontal and vertical" blind scan, but forcing a horizontal scan seems fine. Other times it's almost like it's missing the higher band somehow. I tried to manually force it to scan a transponder I know is there (Galaxy 16, 12095 H, where Infowars lives) and it simply fails to see it.

When I first got the receiver everything seemed to be OK, but I may have been lulled into a false sense of security by not noticing that it was missing transponders, or by dumb luck (sometimes it seems to work OK, or mostly OK). I was also switching between two LNB's and thought maybe that was the problem, but I don't think it is.

I may make a tap for my coax and connect an oscilloscope to it so I can confirm that the voltages and 22 KHz signal are what they should be. I might check the voltages at the end of the line, too. I noticed that there's a setting in the custom tuner settings for increasing the output voltage, but if I try to use any custom tuner settings then I get an error about something not being compatible with TNAP when I try to blind scan. <sigh>

On the whole this has been a tremendously frustrating experience.
 
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Jim S.

When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes
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I noticed that there's a setting in the custom tuner settings for increasing the output voltage, but if I try to use any custom tuner settings then I get an error about something not being compatible with TNAP when I try to blind scan. <sigh>
Now THAT'S odd, I never had any problem with setting "increased voltage".

My own experience with TNAP did not reach a satisfying conclusion. After some prompting from the project's creator to examine my settings, I noticed that somehow, inexplicably, my latitude had been set two degrees off from my actual location. I set it to the correct value and things seemed to be working fine.

But then I decided I would make sure I had taken care of any other loose ends from my experimentation with many versions of the software, because he had noted that I had some old entries that were no longer relevant in the settings file. So I did a fresh install of the latest version, wiping out any old data. Suddenly, horizontal transponders were once again no longer being found!

Eventually I noticed that the motor was apparently driving past the correct position, because when I changed satellites the "locked" indicator on the scanning screen would flash on momentarily and then go off again. But why should this be? I checked my location settings again and they were correct this time!

At this point I gave up and switched to another version of Enigma, because I found that any other version that worked at all, drove to the correct location and scanned both polarities. I wish I could figure out why TNAP isn't working for me when it seems to be working for (almost) everyone else, but I don't have time, and besides I have no idea where to start looking.

The two versions I've tried that seem to be most up-to-date are OpenATV and PurE2. OpenATV comes with a complete satellite list, but for some reason it seems to take a long time to scan for channels after scanning for transponders. PurE2 only comes with European satellites, but you can replace the list. (The site I used to generate a list seems to be down, so I'll attach a copy of the one I made covering 20W-129W.) It scans the transponders for channels pretty fast.
 

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SDA_FL_USA

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 15, 2018
230
231
FL
I landed in this thread because I just got a brand new Edison OS Mio+ with TNAP and I've been losing my damned mind trying to diagnose why it's missing horizontal transponders so often. Often it fails to see any H transponders when I do a "horizontal and vertical" blind scan, but forcing a horizontal scan seems fine. Other times it's almost like it's missing the higher band somehow. I tried to manually force it to scan a transponder I know is there (Galaxy 16, 12095 H, where Infowars lives) and it simply fails to see it.


When I first got the receiver everything seemed to be OK, but I may have been lulled into a false sense of security by not noticing that it was missing transponders, or by dumb luck (sometimes it seems to work OK, or mostly OK). I was also switching between two LNB's and thought maybe that was the problem, but I don't think it is.


I may make a tap for my coax and connect an oscilloscope to it so I can confirm that the voltages and 22 KHz signal are what they should be. I might check the voltages at the end of the line, too. I noticed that there's a setting in the custom tuner settings for increasing the output voltage, but if I try to use any custom

I landed in this thread because I just got a brand new Edison OS Mio+ with TNAP and I've been losing my damned mind trying to diagnose why it's missing horizontal transponders so often. Often it fails to see any H transponders when I do a "horizontal and vertical" blind scan, but forcing a horizontal scan seems fine. Other times it's almost like it's missing the higher band somehow. I tried to manually force it to scan a transponder I know is there (Galaxy 16, 12095 H, where Infowars lives) and it simply fails to see it.

When I first got the receiver everything seemed to be OK, but I may have been lulled into a false sense of security by not noticing that it was missing transponders, or by dumb luck (sometimes it seems to work OK, or mostly OK). I was also switching between two LNB's and thought maybe that was the problem, but I don't think it is.

I may make a tap for my coax and connect an oscilloscope to it so I can confirm that the voltages and 22 KHz signal are what they should be. I might check the voltages at the end of the line, too. I noticed that there's a setting in the custom tuner settings for increasing the output voltage, but if I try to use any custom tuner settings then I get an error about something not being compatible with TNAP when I try to blind scan. <sigh>

On the whole this has been a tremendously frustrating experience.
The best results I got Blind scanning 99ku band using TNAP 4.1 was start symbolrate 01 and stop symbolrate 45 then set filter out adjacent satellites up to 1 or 2 degrees I think 1 degree was best for me. Found info wars with every blind scan I did using those settings.
 

circuitmike

Member
Jul 12, 2021
13
3
Greenfield, MA, USA
Eventually I noticed that the motor was apparently driving past the correct position, because when I changed satellites the "locked" indicator on the scanning screen would flash on momentarily and then go off again. But why should this be? I checked my location settings again and they were correct this time!
I don't know what's up with that, but I also noticed some weirdness with my motor randomly making small movements and I had suspected it was slightly misaligned at various times.
The two versions I've tried that seem to be most up-to-date are OpenATV and PurE2. OpenATV comes with a complete satellite list, but for some reason it seems to take a long time to scan for channels after scanning for transponders. PurE2 only comes with European satellites, but you can replace the list. (The site I used to generate a list seems to be down, so I'll attach a copy of the one I made covering 20W-129W.) It scans the transponders for channels pretty fast.
Thanks for the recommendations and the satellite list! I'll likely try OpenATV and PurE2 in other multiboot slots and see which one I like most.
 

circuitmike

Member
Jul 12, 2021
13
3
Greenfield, MA, USA
The best results I got Blind scanning 99ku band using TNAP 4.1 was start symbolrate 01 and stop symbolrate 45 then set filter out adjacent satellites up to 1 or 2 degrees I think 1 degree was best for me. Found info wars with every blind scan I did using those settings.
I'll give that a try, but that kind of defeats the point of a blind scan, doesn't it? If I need to know this in order to find the transponder, I mean. But I still think this is related to the problem of TNAP failing to detect horizontal transponders. Even if I do a manual scan of that specific transponder rather than a blind scan, it doesn't find it. Something's totally wrong here.
 

Jim S.

When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes
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Jan 2, 2006
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I'll give that a try, but that kind of defeats the point of a blind scan, doesn't it? If I need to know this in order to find the transponder, I mean. But I still think this is related to the problem of TNAP failing to detect horizontal transponders. Even if I do a manual scan of that specific transponder rather than a blind scan, it doesn't find it. Something's totally wrong here.
When I was having the problem with TNAP, it WOULD sometimes lock on to horizontal transponders when I scanned them manually. I don't know whether it was just because they were weaker if the aim wasn't accurate (but why only horizontal?) or what. So I'm not sure whether we're having exactly the same problem or what.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with other versions of Enigma.
 

circuitmike

Member
Jul 12, 2021
13
3
Greenfield, MA, USA
When I was having the problem with TNAP, it WOULD sometimes lock on to horizontal transponders when I scanned them manually. I don't know whether it was just because they were weaker if the aim wasn't accurate (but why only horizontal?) or what. So I'm not sure whether we're having exactly the same problem or what.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with other versions of Enigma.
Oh, it's totally hit or miss for me. Sometimes a blind scan finds horizontal and vertical transponders, sometimes only vertical. Sometimes if I force it to scan horizontal only it'll find them after failing to do so with a horizontal-and-vertical scan moments before. It's nuts.
 

cyberham

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 16, 2010
3,930
2,035
Nova Scotia
Are those having trouble with TNAP using the latest available version? The TNAP 4.1 official release is now available. A lot of work has gone into this release. I've been using it for weeks without any issues. I've never experienced any difficulty in blind scanning horizontal transponders.
 
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circuitmike

Member
Jul 12, 2021
13
3
Greenfield, MA, USA
Are those having trouble with TNAP using the latest available version? The TNAP 4.1 official release is now available. A lot of work has gone into this release. I've been using it for weeks without any issues. I've never experienced any difficulty in blind scanning horizontal transponders.
Yeah, I upgraded to 4.1 shortly after getting my new receiver last week. I just double-checked the information page to be sure.
 

Titanium

AI6US
Lifetime Supporter
May 23, 2013
7,344
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Toss my experience into the mix. I have never experienced horizontal polarity blind scanning issues on my system with any E2 image.

A few units were shipped in for warranty testing and the user indicated that both units would not blind scan or lock horizontal TPs reliably. Was unable to replicate the problem on my system. He was using LNBFs and several inline switches and HH motor and many f-fitting connectors. Suggested that he clean all connectors then measure the voltage at the LNB port. It measured approx. 16Vdc. I had him select the voltage boost and the problems went away. My thought was that when other devices put a load on the system the voltage dropped below the LNBF switch point and the polarity would not change.

I'll give that a try, but that kind of defeats the point of a blind scan, doesn't it? If I need to know this in order to find the transponder, I mean. But I still think this is related to the problem of TNAP failing to detect horizontal transponders. Even if I do a manual scan of that specific transponder rather than a blind scan, it doesn't find it. Something's totally wrong here.
I don't understand this statement... Why would this be defeating the point of blind scan? One is simply changing from the default blind scan parameters. Expanding or limiting the blind search parameters provides the user with control over what signals are logged. If better search results are had when eliminating adjacent satellite TPs or expanding the symbol rate range, use that as your default scan type. You aren't defeating blind scan, you are refining it.

And this my friends is why I use a PC tuner card and EBS pro to scan.
LOL!!! And... we have both owned PC tuner cards that SUCKED at blind scans or tuning for either hardware or software shortcomings. A high-end tuner card with well developed software can provide excellent feed hunting and diagnostics, but they also can suffer from the same switch / motor control, logging and tuning issues...
 
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Jim S.

When someone asks you if you're a god, you say yes
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Jan 2, 2006
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A few units were shipped in for warranty testing and the user indicated that both units would not blind scan or lock horizontal TPs reliably. Was unable to replicate the problem on my system. He was using LNBFs and several inline switches and HH motor and many f-fitting connectors. Suggested that he clean all connectors then measure the voltage at the LNB port. It measured approx. 16Vdc. I had him select the voltage boost and the problems went away. My thought was that when other devices put a load on the system the voltage dropped below the LNBF switch point and the polarity would not change.
I've been meaning to check the voltage on my system, but things just keep me from getting around to it. FWIW though, I have no switches at present; I'm using a motor and a PLL LNB but the problem also happened with a DRO LNB, not to mention the motor shouldn't be drawing much current when it isn't moving; and last but certainly not least, for some reason it only ever happened with TNAP. I did select the voltage boost and it doesn't change anything.

It really does seem to be a USALS aiming issue for me, because it usually performs fine on a satellite like 97W that's on a relatively "flat" part of the arc, has all old-fashioned DVB-S transponders, and doesn't have a lot of interference from neighbors. I'm still at a loss to explain why it only happens with one polarity on other satellites though!
 

circuitmike

Member
Jul 12, 2021
13
3
Greenfield, MA, USA
A few units were shipped in for warranty testing and the user indicated that both units would not blind scan or lock horizontal TPs reliably. Was unable to replicate the problem on my system. He was using LNBFs and several inline switches and HH motor and many f-fitting connectors. Suggested that he clean all connectors then measure the voltage at the LNB port. It measured approx. 16Vdc. I had him select the voltage boost and the problems went away. My thought was that when other devices put a load on the system the voltage dropped below the LNBF switch point and the polarity would not change.

I have been troubleshooting this with both my old Invacom QPH-031 with a single DiSEqC switch and a brand new Geosat Pro PLL LNB, connected through my STAB HH120 and about 50 feet of RG6 - results are the same. Everything works fine using either LNB when using my GTMedia V-73 HD satellite finder. I, too, suspected the voltage at some point and when I have a chance I'm going to insert a T inline and check with a multimeter and possibly even connect my oscilloscope to make sure the 22 KHz signal is present when it should be. I probably won't get to that until this weekend, though.

Like Jim S., I also suspect this might be related to USALS, although I'm not 100% sure of that either. I can definitely hear the motor making small movements, or even fairly large ones, when it shouldn't be. I've been doing this testing in my garage from a point where I can see and hear what the dish is doing. I have yet to try a non-TNAP image but that's on my list of stuff to do, too.

I don't understand this statement... Why would this be defeating the point of blind scan? One is simply changing from the default blind scan parameters. Expanding or limiting the blind search parameters provides the user with control over what signals are logged. If better search results are had when eliminating adjacent satellite TPs or expanding the symbol rate range, use that as your default scan type. You aren't defeating blind scan, you are refining it.

I mean if I have to narrow the blind-scan parameters in a specific way to find a transponder, and I need to be told these parameters from some random person on the internet, it doesn't really qualify as a "blind" scan, right? I doubt tweaking the scan will make much difference anyway - I still think the problem is elsewhere.
 

Comptech

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 26, 2006
3,040
2,253
Travelers Rest SC
Brian you are correct. My 6903 SUCKED, but the 6983 I got from you is awesome even though it is older. I move my dish with your mover as a stand alone, and I use a modded WNC 4x8 switch to feed all four of my PLL Norsat LNB's. Never a problem with that setup.
 

cyberham

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 16, 2010
3,930
2,035
Nova Scotia
...I mean if I have to narrow the blind-scan parameters in a specific way to find a transponder...
I blind scan SR from 01 to 60, vertical and horizontal and it always works on my Edision Mio+. The reason I widen it to 01 instead of the low default of 02 is to catch tps like 11708 H 1013 and 11804 V 1107 on 103W. I use USALS to find satellites initially then change to diseqc commands to save satellite positions in a dedicated motor position. I do this so I can precisely fine tune the motor position for peak reception. All of this always works using the Edision. I have a simple installation with the 100 feet of RG-6 feeding directly to the HH motor without any switches in the path.
 

FTA4PA

Satellite Guys Family
Lifetime Supporter
Nov 13, 2013
5,428
3,298
Central Pennsylvania
Now THAT'S odd, I never had any problem with setting "increased voltage".

My own experience with TNAP did not reach a satisfying conclusion. After some prompting from the project's creator to examine my settings, I noticed that somehow, inexplicably, my latitude had been set two degrees off from my actual location. I set it to the correct value and things seemed to be working fine.

But then I decided I would make sure I had taken care of any other loose ends from my experimentation with many versions of the software, because he had noted that I had some old entries that were no longer relevant in the settings file. So I did a fresh install of the latest version, wiping out any old data. Suddenly, horizontal transponders were once again no longer being found!

Eventually I noticed that the motor was apparently driving past the correct position, because when I changed satellites the "locked" indicator on the scanning screen would flash on momentarily and then go off again. But why should this be? I checked my location settings again and they were correct this time!

At this point I gave up and switched to another version of Enigma, because I found that any other version that worked at all, drove to the correct location and scanned both polarities. I wish I could figure out why TNAP isn't working for me when it seems to be working for (almost) everyone else, but I don't have time, and besides I have no idea where to start looking.

The two versions I've tried that seem to be most up-to-date are OpenATV and PurE2. OpenATV comes with a complete satellite list, but for some reason it seems to take a long time to scan for channels after scanning for transponders. PurE2 only comes with European satellites, but you can replace the list. (The site I used to generate a list seems to be down, so I'll attach a copy of the one I made covering 20W-129W.) It scans the transponders for channels pretty fast.
Interested in trying these. Any place in particular you recommend downloading OpenATV and PurE2 from?
 

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