Blu-Ray and HD-DVD downconverts your output!!!
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So they won again - they plugged the 'analog' hole.
This also means HD-DVD's mandatory managed copy will be even more important feature - which makes Blu-Ray's lack of mandatory ruling pretty wide open for all sort of nasty attacks...
This also means HD-DVD's mandatory managed copy will be even more important feature - which makes Blu-Ray's lack of mandatory ruling pretty wide open for all sort of nasty attacks...
Big discussion about this with all the gory details on avs forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=630904
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=630904
High-def ‘down-converting’ forced
Consortium backs technology to prevent piracy on analog signals
By Paul Sweeting 1/19/2006
Video Business
JAN. 19 | Some buyers of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc players might not get everything they bargained for.
In a deal reached this week after tense negotiations, the eight-company consortium behind the Advanced Access Content System, created for use by both high-def formats to prevent unauthorized copying, has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def signals from being sent from players to displays over analog connections, sources said.
Instead, the affected analog signal must be “down-converted” from the full 1920x1080 lines of resolution the players are capable of outputting to 960x540 lines—a resolution closer to standard DVDs than to high-def. Standard DVDs are typically encoded at 720 horizontal by 480 vertical lines of resolution.
The 960x540 standard stipulated in the AACS agreement represents 50% higher resolution than standard-def, but only one-quarter the resolution of full high-def. Whether a particular movie is down-converted will be up to the studio.
The players will be required to recognize and respond to a digital flag, called an Image Constraint Token, inserted into the movie data.
If the flag is set to “on,” the player must down-convert the analog signal. If set to “off,” the player can pass the full high-def signal over the analog connections.
The studios are divided over whether to require such down-conversion and are likely to follow separate policies.
Hardware makers had generally resisted the requirement, but under the new deal, ICT recognition will be included in the AACS license that all device makers and playback software vendors will have to sign.
Estimates differ on how many consumers might be affected by the new requirement.
Many first-generation HDTV sets are equipped only with analog inputs, because at the time they were manufactured, there was no agreed-on industry standard for copy-protected digital connections between devices.
Now that there is, however, the studios are anxious to move all signal traffic to protected digital inputs and outputs.
Although movies in both Blu-ray and HD DVD will be encrypted while on the disc, the digital encryption is lost once the signal is converted to analog. Some studios fear that pirates will be able to capture and record the unencrypted analog signal, which could then be re-converted into a pristine, unprotected digital copy.
Down-converting the analog signal from high-def to something closer to standard-definition would at least prevent pirates from starting with the highest-quality image.
The effect, however, will be to deny those HDTV owners with analog-only sets the full capabilities of the new disc formats.
As part of the deal with hardware makers, the studios will be required to disclose on a movie’s packaging whether the image will be down-converted.
Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.
Many so-called HDTV sets are actually capable of displaying only 720 lines of resolution, regardless of the source, so viewers would not be getting full high-def anyway, even over digital connections.
Once the analog image is down-sampled to 540 lines, moreover, players will be permitted to use a signal processor to “up-convert” it to 720 or 1,080 lines.
Although such up-conversion does not restore the detail lost through down-sampling, it does improve overall picture sharpness.
No studio would comment on whether it plans to take advantage of the Image Constraint option.
Within the AACS consortium, however, Warner Home Video was consistently the strongest proponent of the idea, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.
20th Century Fox Home Entertainment is not a member of AACS, but has argued against the idea in other forums.
AACS-member Disney, as well as non-members NBC Universal and Paramount, are likely to take advantage of the option, according to sources with knowledge of the studios’ thinking.
Although Sony is a member of AACS, where it sometimes clashed with Warner on the issue, sources said it is still unclear whether Sony Pictures Home Entertainment will take advantage of the ICT option now that it is in place.
Source: http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6300812.html
Consortium backs technology to prevent piracy on analog signals
By Paul Sweeting 1/19/2006
Video Business
JAN. 19 | Some buyers of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc players might not get everything they bargained for.
In a deal reached this week after tense negotiations, the eight-company consortium behind the Advanced Access Content System, created for use by both high-def formats to prevent unauthorized copying, has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def signals from being sent from players to displays over analog connections, sources said.
Instead, the affected analog signal must be “down-converted” from the full 1920x1080 lines of resolution the players are capable of outputting to 960x540 lines—a resolution closer to standard DVDs than to high-def. Standard DVDs are typically encoded at 720 horizontal by 480 vertical lines of resolution.
The 960x540 standard stipulated in the AACS agreement represents 50% higher resolution than standard-def, but only one-quarter the resolution of full high-def. Whether a particular movie is down-converted will be up to the studio.
The players will be required to recognize and respond to a digital flag, called an Image Constraint Token, inserted into the movie data.
If the flag is set to “on,” the player must down-convert the analog signal. If set to “off,” the player can pass the full high-def signal over the analog connections.
The studios are divided over whether to require such down-conversion and are likely to follow separate policies.
Hardware makers had generally resisted the requirement, but under the new deal, ICT recognition will be included in the AACS license that all device makers and playback software vendors will have to sign.
Estimates differ on how many consumers might be affected by the new requirement.
Many first-generation HDTV sets are equipped only with analog inputs, because at the time they were manufactured, there was no agreed-on industry standard for copy-protected digital connections between devices.
Now that there is, however, the studios are anxious to move all signal traffic to protected digital inputs and outputs.
Although movies in both Blu-ray and HD DVD will be encrypted while on the disc, the digital encryption is lost once the signal is converted to analog. Some studios fear that pirates will be able to capture and record the unencrypted analog signal, which could then be re-converted into a pristine, unprotected digital copy.
Down-converting the analog signal from high-def to something closer to standard-definition would at least prevent pirates from starting with the highest-quality image.
The effect, however, will be to deny those HDTV owners with analog-only sets the full capabilities of the new disc formats.
As part of the deal with hardware makers, the studios will be required to disclose on a movie’s packaging whether the image will be down-converted.
Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.
Many so-called HDTV sets are actually capable of displaying only 720 lines of resolution, regardless of the source, so viewers would not be getting full high-def anyway, even over digital connections.
Once the analog image is down-sampled to 540 lines, moreover, players will be permitted to use a signal processor to “up-convert” it to 720 or 1,080 lines.
Although such up-conversion does not restore the detail lost through down-sampling, it does improve overall picture sharpness.
No studio would comment on whether it plans to take advantage of the Image Constraint option.
Within the AACS consortium, however, Warner Home Video was consistently the strongest proponent of the idea, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.
20th Century Fox Home Entertainment is not a member of AACS, but has argued against the idea in other forums.
AACS-member Disney, as well as non-members NBC Universal and Paramount, are likely to take advantage of the option, according to sources with knowledge of the studios’ thinking.
Although Sony is a member of AACS, where it sometimes clashed with Warner on the issue, sources said it is still unclear whether Sony Pictures Home Entertainment will take advantage of the ICT option now that it is in place.
Source: http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6300812.html
So It Is Up To The Studios
"The studios are divided over whether to require such down-conversion and are likely to follow separate policies."
Sounds like it is time to start writing calling the studios to be sure they understand that if they choose to activate the flag so those of us with component only inputs cannot view HDDVDsBR at full resolution we won't be buying their product. Vote first with your mouths then with your pocketbooks!
"The studios are divided over whether to require such down-conversion and are likely to follow separate policies."
Sounds like it is time to start writing calling the studios to be sure they understand that if they choose to activate the flag so those of us with component only inputs cannot view HDDVDsBR at full resolution we won't be buying their product. Vote first with your mouths then with your pocketbooks!
I'll be voting with my wallet and getting neither for a long time if ever.
The downrezzing option is an OPTION (all titles will not automatically require it), but just having the capability should give many pause.
I'd like the better picture quality, but I'm not ready to give up compatability, flexibility (playing in my laptop or portable player), price (disks will be more expensive with potentially less extras a la Superbit), or utility (no backups like we can do now).
Right now a better picture is the only good thing these things have going for them. People have shown that they will trade a lower quality signal (mp3s) if they keep their utility maximized. Handcuff them with too many restrictions and they will balk.
The downrezzing option is an OPTION (all titles will not automatically require it), but just having the capability should give many pause.
I'd like the better picture quality, but I'm not ready to give up compatability, flexibility (playing in my laptop or portable player), price (disks will be more expensive with potentially less extras a la Superbit), or utility (no backups like we can do now).
Right now a better picture is the only good thing these things have going for them. People have shown that they will trade a lower quality signal (mp3s) if they keep their utility maximized. Handcuff them with too many restrictions and they will balk.
discodol said:
I agree. This is BS. Only problem, sometimes you cant choose content. You want a good movie, you gotta adhere to their rules.
I dont have a problem with this rule, but dont dare start using it day 1. I can see turning it on after fair warning and several years into the HD DVD and digital TV adoption. There are way too many component only input TV's out there to f**k folks from the get go including ME. I can see when digital and HDMI is more widely supported but not right now folks. Not a good idea.
Brewer4 said:
Ummm not really. I can't name any movie I couldn't live without if it comes down to show your middle finger to the studios and force them to stop abusing your rights.
Quality of the movies are steadily declining since late 70s-early 80s, thanks to Hollywood - and, thanks God, now they are being hit at the box offices.
Finally customers started to realize we are being fed up mostly with low-quality, primitive sh!tty crap called movies - last year meant 7% lower box office income for the crap-generators, the studios. THANKS GOD.
No matter how the pro-big-business magazines try to preach it- see latest Economist lead on the subject -, studios are NOT, I repeat, NOT in a good position and currently have no plan how to survive on the long run.
At the same time Sundance is bigger than ever and I found much more and better films in the indie industry than ever.
After the music business got screwed - Economist is pretty laughable when it pretends they are OK, LOL -, the next will be the MPAA-world, I can guarantee you. Looks like some of them still so frikkin clueless they think they can still play their retarded monkey business, force you to swallow the twice as expensive, more restrictive, less durable Blu-Ray, even downconvert HD outputs despite its HD categorization etc etc - they will lose BIG.
And I'm GLAD to see this - time to die for all these bloodsucking useless giant leeches like studios and publishers. It's the digital age, no need for themiddlemen who takes 80% of the price you pay (see music business).
If they make the physical medium too restrictive, then I wait for it to hit HBO/SHO/MAX/STZ and then record it there. If they ever turn THAT off via restrictions, then I just don't need the movies that bad anymore. There are a few movies that grab me that I will see no matter what, but there are also a lot of marginal films that I DO watch now that I will boycott if they get too abusive with their protection schemes.
The flexibility is only because of there aren't portable players, not because there won't be, so it's not really a "restriction." I haven't seen any prices released, so while I do expect them to be a bit higher, I don't think they'll be that much higher. The price point is about as high as it can go I think, and that won't change just because the resolution is higher. The utility argument is an interesting one, because you were never supposed to be able to backup regular DVDs either (assuming we're talking about copyrighted studio movies). All the programs that do it are based on an illegal crack of the CSS protection system. Time will tell if something similar happens for HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray.BobMurdoch said:
puck71 said:
Not true - you HAVE the right,, only the clearly anti-constitutional DMCA rendered circumventing CSS to illegal. We live in a state of constant anti-constitutional situation, thx to the MPAA lobby.
It sounds to me like they are only going to down convert if the signal is being sent over an analog connection.
"has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def signals from being sent from players to displays over analog connections, sources said."
So if you use HDMI or DVI, then you'll receive the full HD.
"has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def signals from being sent from players to displays over analog connections, sources said."
So if you use HDMI or DVI, then you'll receive the full HD.
That is correct. If you have HDMI or DVI input on your TV set and that input is HDCP-compliant, then you should be able to get the highest resolution supported by both the player and the TV set.Djsf99 said:
Hold On There!
Stop me if I'm wrong, folks but it's only a chip, right?
That's means someone (you'll likely find them in the back of your favorite video magazine) will offer a (perfectly legal) service to remove said chip from your new encrypted HD player and give you full 10801,etc resolution with your existing componets jacks (for a price, of course.)
And the studios are worried about piracy?!!!!
This seems to be the surest way in the world to encourage pirates to come out of the underground and start offering their services to the average Joe. The studios WAY underestitmate the intelligence of the average viewer--it ain't just tech heads and those that address sites like this one. Anyone with a componet only set-up--which means just about everybody--is going to see the difference as soon as these DVD's begin to proliferate in any numbers.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Way to go, Hollywood!
Stop me if I'm wrong, folks but it's only a chip, right?
That's means someone (you'll likely find them in the back of your favorite video magazine) will offer a (perfectly legal) service to remove said chip from your new encrypted HD player and give you full 10801,etc resolution with your existing componets jacks (for a price, of course.)
And the studios are worried about piracy?!!!!
This seems to be the surest way in the world to encourage pirates to come out of the underground and start offering their services to the average Joe. The studios WAY underestitmate the intelligence of the average viewer--it ain't just tech heads and those that address sites like this one. Anyone with a componet only set-up--which means just about everybody--is going to see the difference as soon as these DVD's begin to proliferate in any numbers.
Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Way to go, Hollywood!
Djsf99 said:
And? FYI: that's the point - WTF these studios are thinking when they want to downconvert the analog input?
And they wonder why people hack their DVR's or steal TV 
I pity those that just flushed 800 bucks down the toilet on a new HDDVD player and only have component inputs. I'll wait a few years until we can copy these bad boys with a PC and stick up our middle fingers at the bastards like we can now with DVD's.
I pity those that just flushed 800 bucks down the toilet on a new HDDVD player and only have component inputs. I'll wait a few years until we can copy these bad boys with a PC and stick up our middle fingers at the bastards like we can now with DVD's.
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vurbano said:And they wonder why people hack their DVR's or steal TV
Well, that's still not legal, thanks to stupid Clinton and the clearly illegal DMCA.
