FiOS and Tivo???

[enthuzist]

I just got a letter/flyer in the mail stating that FiOS will be turned on withing 30 days. So I decided to learn more about it. I have been watching fiber go into the ground for over six months now. However after reading this forum, I'm confused about the use of Tivo units for viewing and recording FiOS.

1. How is this possible?

2. Adding an external HDD isn't possible on the FiOS Home Media DVR?

3. What are the pros/cons with HMDVR and TIVO3?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm trying to gather as much information as possible prior to taking the plunge.

 

[Ken F]

I just got a letter/flyer in the mail stating that FiOS will be turned on withing 30 days. So I decided to learn more about it. I have been watching fiber go into the ground for over six months now. However after reading this forum, I'm confused about the use of Tivo units for viewing and recording FiOS.

1. How is this possible?

Verizon FiOS uses QAM to deliver its channels, just like digital cable. In fact, the coax output signal from the ONT is no different than a digital cable signal. Verizon is able to provide more HD channels at higher bitrates (higher quality) because they don't waste any of their TV capacity on analog channels, VOD, or Internet. With FiOS, all channels are digital, and Internet and VOD use a separate wavelength on the fiber.

Verizon FiOS offers CableCards just like any other cable provider, so CableCard DVRs like the TivoHD and Moxi can be used. The TivoHD has dual ATSC/QAM tuners. One CableCard (of the M-CARD variety) plugs into the front of the TivoHD and authorizes all of the channels that you pay for.

As of this posting, you can get the standard TivoHD with lifetime (no fees ever) for $499 using this link. If you don't mind paying monthly or yearly fees, then the price is $250 at Amazon.com.

2. Adding an external HDD isn't possible on the FiOS Home Media DVR?

That's correct.

3. What are the pros/cons with HMDVR and TIVO3

Pros for TivoHD

1. Officially supports external storage expansion; unofficially allows internal drive upgrades
   
   Verizon's DVRs do not support any form of internal or external storage expansion. Verizon does plan to offer a DVR with storage expansion options by the end of 2009.
   
   
2. Reliable guide data
   
   On its own boxes, Verizon uses a lesser known guide data provider (FYI Television), which is notorious for incomplete/erroneous information; it will regularly label new episodes as repeats and repeats as new episodes.
   
   
3. Autorecord based on search
   
   The TiVo allows you create recordings for your favorite sports teams, new pilots and season premieres, etc. The Verizon DVR does not offer any comparable functionality; it cannot record based on search.
   
   
4. Allows you to download recordings from TiVo to computer, which can then be played, stored and transferred back to the TiVo at a later time, or burned to DVD or Blu-ray disk.
   
   The Verizon DVR does not allow you to download recordings.
   
   
5. Supports Netflix SD/HD streaming

Cons for TivoHD

1. Upfront cost
   
   Verizon's DVR is $15.99/mo plus tax (or $19.99/mo for MRDVR) with no upfront cost, while the TivoHD is $499 with no fees or $250 with fees (12.99/mo or $129/yr). Edit: Note the $499 price is a promotional offer and may not last long.
   
   With the TiVo, you also need to figure in the cost of one CableCard at $3.99/mo. There's also the cost of the external drive or internal drive upgrade.
   
   
2. No support for FiOS's own VOD
   
   The TivoHD does not support Verizon's Video On Demand. If you really want VOD, you could still rent a Verizon STB for that purpose.
   
   
3. No support for multi-room viewing with Verizon's own boxes
   
   Verizon's $19.99/mo MRDVR allows HD recordings to be streamed to HD STBs ($9.99/mo) and SD recordings to be streamed to SD STBs ($5.99/mo). The TivoHD supports multi-room viewing, but only with other TiVos.

 

[riffjim4069]

Not much to add to what Ken mentioned, but I just wanted to say the FiOS DVR provides an "adequate" user experience (better than most Cable DVRs and it actually has a pretty slick Interface and potential for robust widgets). However, if you've ever used a TivoHD or Dish Network ViP series DVR then you will not like the FiOS DVR. The TivoHD may cost a couple bucks more per months, but it's well worth it. To be honest, the FiOS DVR would be much, much, much better if Verizon were to:

1. Support External eSata storage - not sure why this "still" isn't being supported since it's been supported by Cable for years.

2. Better guide data - not sure why they still use FYI Television, but I actually had far less problems than others.

3. Rehaul the Search and Season Pass features.

 

[enthuzist]

Thank you

Ken F and riffjim4069
Thank you for an indepth response. I see I have more to decide on before the switch is turned on. I have never owned a SAT or Tivo DVR, just from Cox. I have heard a lot of positive things about Tivo DVRs. With Cox I had an HD DVR (mine) and a STD DVR (DW) to keep peace in the marriage. However I always wanted the ability to link to my HD DVR when in the bedroom to watch my recordings. At the same time I also hated the limited storage, external was not turned on. I have since dropped cable and am strictly OTA, which has stunning HD viewing. I'm missing the wealth of channels, sports, etc. that Verizon can offer not to mention the network speeds.

I will study more and make sure I can make a decision I will not regret.

Lastly, I am a big DIY freak. Therefore I like to make sure all of my cables are ran prior to any installer arriving. I am about to upgrade my house with new STP CAT6 and QS RG6 (I get it free through work) so I can have the best infrastructure and jacks everywhere I want them to be. My question is how and where should I put the junction site for the ONT? Any suggestions?

 

[riffjim4069]

Lastly, I am a big DIY freak. Therefore I like to make sure all of my cables are ran prior to any installer arriving. I am about to upgrade my house with new STP CAT6 and QS RG6 (I get it free through work) so I can have the best infrastructure and jacks everywhere I want them to be. My question is how and where should I put the junction site for the ONT? Any suggestions?

I too did all my interior cabling at my Virginia home as well as running two OTA antennas. All the VOOM and subsequently Dish Network installer had to do was mount/aim the dish and run exterior RG-6 to the wiring closer in the basement. Piece of cake.

As for my FiOS install in Texas...well, that was even easier because I had the builder hire an installation company to wire the house with the Home Theater package. A central wiring closet (panel box) was installed in our master bedroom closet. Besides the interior wiring, they also ran four RG-6 and ground from the wiring closer to the attic, and two RG-6 and Cat6 were run to a side garage. Although there is no way I would ever mount my satellite dishes atop a 35' roof, that's what they do in that area. In my subdivision, all the ONTs were installed inside the garage - ours was placed inside of a side garage and was plugged into a conveniently located outlet next to sprinker system control box. Other than putting the ActionTec router in the bedroom closet, Verizon techs were in-and-out pretty quickly. It almost took longer to authorized three cablecards than it did to get the ONT and network up and running.

To be honest, the placement of your ONT and router are up to you and Verizon...and a lot of it depends on your home (old/new, frame/brick) and where Verizon installs the ONT in your area: they install them on the exterior (at least they did) in my neighborhood in VA, but they install them indoors (prefer garage) in the Dallas area. Personally, I would run all your cables to an interior junction that is centrally located (as much as possible). If this isn't centrally located and you cannot get adequate wireless coverage from your ActionTec router, you can always turn off the ActionTec's wireless capabilities and connect it to a Linksys router using one of your RG-6 runs. If I were you, I would call your local Verizon...ask your neighbors...or take a look at the DSLReports FiOS Forums:

Verizon Fiber Optics forum - dslreports.com broadband community
Verizon FIOS TV forum - dslreports.com broadband community

P.S. I turned off my ActionTec wireless functions and connected a Linksys wireless router in my living room for a few reasons:

1. Although the bedroom/wiring was in a convenient cable location, it wasn't centrally located and could not wirelessly cover the entire house (4200sq. ft of brick)
2. I like the Linksys router better (function, UI, and gaming)
3. Could plug TivoHD directly into router and not purchase wireless adapter

 

[enthuzist]

My present setup has my WiFi, Server, PS3, Wii and TV all located centrally in a wall unit entertainment center. WiFi access is good all over including in my yard. I also have a linksys and love it. I hope the Verizon WiFi router is as good. They claim on their site that they no longer use the ActionTec. Therefore I'm not sure what to expect. My neighbors are in the same boat...wait and see. I am asking around and will look in other forums like you provided. So If I keep everything central, then I would only need a single RG6 from the side of the house (where cable box was placed also) to the entertainment center? Or should it be a RG6 and CAT6 run to the central location?

 

[grydlok]

Or should it be a RG6 and CAT6 run to the central location?

You can run both however when you chose to get tv Verizon uses coax to the Craptiontec router.

 

[vurbano]

I too did all my interior cabling at my Virginia home as well as running two OTA antennas. All the VOOM and subsequently Dish Network installer had to do was mount/aim the dish and run exterior RG-6 to the wiring closer in the basement. Piece of cake.

As for my FiOS install in Texas...well, that was even easier because I had the builder hire an installation company to wire the house with the Home Theater package. A central wiring closet (panel box) was installed in our master bedroom closet. Besides the interior wiring, they also ran four RG-6 and ground from the wiring closer to the attic, and two RG-6 and Cat6 were run to a side garage. Although there is no way I would ever mount my satellite dishes atop a 35' roof, that's what they do in that area. In my subdivision, all the ONTs were installed inside the garage - ours was placed inside of a side garage and was plugged into a conveniently located outlet next to sprinker system control box. Other than putting the ActionTec router in the bedroom closet, Verizon techs were in-and-out pretty quickly. It almost took longer to authorized three cablecards than it did to get the ONT and network up and running.

To be honest, the placement of your ONT and router are up to you and Verizon...and a lot of it depends on your home (old/new, frame/brick) and where Verizon installs the ONT in your area: they install them on the exterior (at least they did) in my neighborhood in VA, but they install them indoors (prefer garage) in the Dallas area. Personally, I would run all your cables to an interior junction that is centrally located (as much as possible). If this isn't centrally located and you cannot get adequate wireless coverage from your ActionTec router, you can always turn off the ActionTec's wireless capabilities and connect it to a Linksys router using one of your RG-6 runs. If I were you, I would call your local Verizon...ask your neighbors...or take a look at the DSLReports FiOS Forums:

Verizon Fiber Optics forum - dslreports.com broadband community
Verizon FIOS TV forum - dslreports.com broadband community

P.S. I turned off my ActionTec wireless functions and connected a Linksys wireless router in my living room for a few reasons:

1. Although the bedroom/wiring was in a convenient cable location, it wasn't centrally located and could not wirelessly cover the entire house (4200sq. ft of brick)
2. I like the Linksys router better (function, UI, and gaming)
3. Could plug TivoHD directly into router and not purchase wireless adapter

connect the linksys wireless router (configured as a wireless access point)to the actiontec router with RG6??? you mean cat6 or cat5 between the routers correct?

 

[riffjim4069]

connect the linksys wireless router (configured as a wireless access point)to the actiontec router with RG6??? you mean cat6 or cat5 between the routers correct?

Absolutely! My fingers were not comprehending what my brain was saying.

Thanks...

 

[vurbano]

I just got a letter/flyer in the mail stating that FiOS will be turned on withing 30 days. So I decided to learn more about it. I have been watching fiber go into the ground for over six months now. However after reading this forum, I'm confused about the use of Tivo units for viewing and recording FiOS.

1. How is this possible?

2. Adding an external HDD isn't possible on the FiOS Home Media DVR?

3. What are the pros/cons with HMDVR and TIVO3?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm trying to gather as much information as possible prior to taking the plunge.

If you go the tivoHD route let me know. I can show you the best internal 1TB drive to buy to upgrade it internally and how to do it. Drive Expansion and Drive Upgrade FAQ - TiVo Community
I just did 2 of them and did my old HR10-250 years ago. Its so easy its unbelieveable. I prefer the internal route opposed to having an external solution as another noise source and occupying another power outlet.

 

[Ken F]

Note the new TiVo v11.0d software improves the robustness of the tuners such that attenuation is no longer necessary on FiOS. Under the 11.0c, the TiVo's tuners were far more sensitive to strong and slightly-out-of-spec signals and that was addressed (fixed) in 11.0d.

 

[philhu]

You can run both however when you chose to get tv Verizon uses coax to the Craptiontec router.

If you are doing it DIY, then run both coax AND Cat5e/Cat6 to the ONT location and where you will put their router.

If you do that, the technician will activate it all over Ethernet IF YOU ASK HIM TO, which is a much better deal for future 'options'. If it is over Ethernet, then you can REPLACE their router with a much better one of your own, and then just use their router to talk to their Cable boxes/dvr's. The router uses an internet protocol called MOCA to send the guide data to the STB and DVR units provided by FiOS. Tivo uses straight network.

You will find their router is crippled and only allows about 1000 open ports through NAT, so if you are doing P2P (EMule, uTorrent, etc), you quickly run out of translation ports and see services pause/stop/fail. That is why you want to use your own router in the mix, not to mention Wireless-N, which theirs does not support.

 

[grydlok]

If you are doing it DIY, then run both coax AND Cat5e/Cat6 to the ONT location and where you will put their router.

If you do that, the technician will activate it all over Ethernet IF YOU ASK HIM TO, which is a much better deal for future 'options'. If it is over Ethernet, then you can REPLACE their router with a much better one of your own, and then just use their router to talk to their Cable boxes/dvr's. The router uses an internet protocol called MOCA to send the guide data to the STB and DVR units provided by FiOS. Tivo uses straight network.

You will find their router is crippled and only allows about 1000 open ports through NAT, so if you are doing P2P (EMule, uTorrent, etc), you quickly run out of translation ports and see services pause/stop/fail. That is why you want to use your own router in the mix, not to mention Wireless-N, which theirs does not support.

Verizon is not going to provision your TV service over Cat5/6. They will do it MoCa. You will have to bridge the router or buy a NIM. The guide data comes from the Router (IPTV)so if you chose your option you will get No guide infor or VOD. That would be fine if you

A: Never use Verzion set-op boxes. Use Moxi or Tivo's.

B: Never want to know what coming in the guide, use widgets, or VOD.

Verizon isn't going to assume that responsibility so you would have to replace their router yourself.

 

[Ken F]

Verizon is not going to provision your TV service over Cat5/6. They will do it MoCa. You will have to bridge the router or buy a NIM.

The linear TV channels are always delivered using coax, but the guide data and VOD is delivered using the data connection, which can be either coax or ethernet.

Verizon will provision your data connection over ethernet if you've run the ethernet cable prior to their arrival. Verizon installers are instructions not to run CAT5/CAT6 cable (a small percentage will do it anyway), but they are also told they can use any existing line of CAT5/CAT6 cable.

Guide data and VOD is delivered over the data connection. Newer ONTs can use either coax or ethernet for the data connection, but not both. If you want an ethernet install, then you run that cable prior to their arrival. If you plan to have the ONT outside your home, you don't need to drill a whole in the wall; just run a length of unterminated CAT5/CAT6 cable to the spot inside your home where the hole will be drilled. Be sure to point that out at the very start of the installation.

 

[philhu]

Verizon is not going to provision your TV service over Cat5/6. They will do it MoCa. You will have to bridge the router or buy a NIM. The guide data comes from the Router (IPTV)so if you chose your option you will get No guide infor or VOD. That would be fine if you

A: Never use Verzion set-op boxes. Use Moxi or Tivo's.

B: Never want to know what coming in the guide, use widgets, or VOD.

Verizon isn't going to assume that responsibility so you would have to replace their router yourself.

Of course they won't provision video over Ethernet. That is why I said to run BOTH to the ONT location. I did, they connected Cat-5e and Cable to the ONT.

I then changed out their router with my own over ethernet and their Actiontec router as a local device on my router. Then their stbs on the same line as the coax from the actiontec, in essence making their actiontec a MOCA router for their cable boxes. It works fine

This whole thing is WELL DOCUMENTED in the dslreports.com FIOS section to allow use of your own router. And yes, I get VOD, Guide data, widgets etc on their STB boxes using this method.

You are wrong, period. I am doing it already

Ken F is correct as I am. It is exactly what I did

 

[grydlok]

Double

 

[grydlok]

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/13195

Can I use my wireless or an extra router along with the Verizon provided router? Verizon Online FiOS FAQ - dslreports.com

I have a newer ONT it doesn't give both routers a separate IP address.
you have to bridge them. I been all over DSL reports about this as well.

 

[enthuzist]

I had already planned on running both CAT6 and RG6QS to the ONT location which is only 10ft across the room where my homeruns will be terminated.

I too read on dslreports of doing it like Philhu stated, which was exactly what I wanted to do. So what is the model of your ONT Philhu, Ken F, Vurbano and Grydlok? I ask because I have read post of recent installs where the person made the swap to or had it originally CAT5e with their own router and only used the AT for the STB and VOD. I'm not doubting anyone's claims, but feel there may be some hidden truth here in the form of different model ONTs.

I need my ports and don't want to lose any features of my STBs and VOD!

 

[mixedday]

Note the new TiVo v11.0d software improves the robustness of the tuners such that attenuation is no longer necessary on FiOS. Under the 11.0c, the TiVo's tuners were far more sensitive to strong and slightly-out-of-spec signals and that was addressed (fixed) in 11.0d.

I have the v11.0d software and have pixelation problems on 2 international channels in the 17xx range. The problem just started, more than 6 months after owning the TiVo with Verizon service. So, I tried going through Verizon to fix the problem. Waste of time. I'll be using an attenuator soon...hopefully it'll fix the problem.

 

[Ken F]

I have the v11.0d software and have pixelation problems on 2 international channels in the 17xx range. The problem just started, more than 6 months after owning the TiVo with Verizon service. So, I tried going through Verizon to fix the problem. Waste of time. I'll be using an attenuator soon...hopefully it'll fix the problem.

When you tune to these channels, do you see [millions of] RS Uncorrected errors on Messages & Settings -> System Information -> DVR Diagnostics screens? If you don't see millions of RS Uncorrected errors, then the problem is part of the original picture signal coming from Verizon, and attenuation won't do anything about that.

There really shouldn't be any scenario where attenuation is necessary with 11.0d. What frequency to these channels use on the DVR Diagnostics screen? Verizon only recently began to use frequencies above 850MHz, and certain Verizon ONTs (early versions of Motorola 611) do not correctly pass 850+MHz. Two specific ONT models -- the Tellabs 611i and Motorola 1000v --- also require a low-pass filter or you'll see pixelization on some channels with both the TiVo and Motorola boxes.