First Look: Dish Network's DTVPal Digital Converter

Just a note; I had 2 coupons I did the Digital Stream 'order at Radio Shack to be delivered to my home' thing with one (hasn't arrived yet; due anytime), and waited till the very last day, finding it very difficult to decide between the currently 'buggy' DTV Pal or a Zenith. I finally decided to go with the Zenith, and maybe (if I have the money) buy a DTV Pal later on when people are (I hope) able to consistently report they're getting ones that aren't having the current problems. So, I went to get the Zenith, & found out by phone that the Circuit City stores here in K.C. have closed. So, off I went to Best Buy which had the Zenith-clone Insignia, or the Apex in stock. I went with my brother, who didn't realize his coupons had expired a week before (!), and we ended-up with my buying the Insignia (which has much better reception than my brother's early DS). I wish it had the timer features of the DTV Pal, but I'm pleased with the improved reception, and like the remote, which has (as has been said) small buttons, but I have small hands so it's okay, and a cool thing about it is that it has several dedicated buttons to easily change things like aspect ratio. Anyway, that's my report. I do hope to get a DTV Pal (I'm guessing a few months down the road), and if and when I do, I'll report on my experiences with it. Will now switch over to threads involving the units I have.

Best of luck to all of you, and I appreciate all the good info so many of you have posted. It's very useful, even though a few of the really technical things are a bit over my head. I can still get the gist of nearly all of it.
 
REVIEW: DTVpal versus RCA

I have both an RCA and a DTVpal, so for those of you who are reading up to decide if the DTVpal is for you, here's my observations.

Summary: DTVpal well worth the $10 extra over the RCA, but not without a few things that weren't thought out completely.

First, on availability, I had to call around to find it locally. Two Sears stores didn't know about anything but the Magnavox, but I found a third one that did have DTVpals. (Absolutely nothing on sears.com) So it's not necessarily available at every single store.

For the record my software version is F101TCGH-N, bootstrap 1812TCGH, same as others.

The DTVPal seems to have slightly better reception than the RCA. (Supposely the RCA was better than many others). Using the same antenna, my DTVpal seemed to display one "iffy" station slightly better, plus picks up two stations that the RCA didn't find. (one too poor to watch, but both proof of better pickup.) So not a huge difference, but only someone with a huge antenna is going to provide their converter with perfect signals from every single station, so something to consider. Another big plus is that add-channel-mode can hover on a specific frequency (if you happen to expect something there, or if you manually go through the channels looking at the signal meter.) I don't have SmartAntenna, but maybe someday I'll wish DTVpal supported it like RCA.

Some people have made a big deal about how small the DTVpal is. So what. Yes it's slightly smaller than the RCA. If the box has to go somewhere small enough for it to matter, there probably is insufficient airflow anyway. A little bit smaller doesn't make up for having no buttons on the actual box.

For those still wanting analog, you'll be happy with the pass through, there's a button on the remote control for it. I use the composite output, so I still have analog reception, directly. (I have the second generation RCA with composite output, not the older one that was coax only)

I plan to use the timers so I was a little concerned reading here all about the channel errors with timers. Basically what it came down to is, a) if I even have the problems, it sounded like the workarounds were something I could live with, and b) the other converter boxes don't even have timers, so really nothing to lose. And if it ever ends up being possible to upgrade the software, even better.


The RCA program guide only shows what's currently on and what's on next. The DTVpal guide really does display what it knows, even days in advance.

The DTVpal has a button right on the remote to switch picture mode. It has three modes, which it calls 'normal' (shows widescreen normally with black bars above, shows 4:3 with black bars on all four sides), 'full' (for stretching 16:9 widescreen vertically to fill a 4:3 tv screen, but leaves a 4:3 show with black bars on the sides), and 'zoom' (clips sides off widescreen, shows 4:3 full screen). I don't want reduced size for the 4:3 shows, so I at least have to have it on zoom mode for those shows.

For the next several years it's going to be program-by-program between 16:9 and 4:3 programs, so DTVpal's remote-control button is much better than RCA's setting which is buried deep in setup menus and obviously only meant to be set one way or the other. The only drawback about being able to switch is that by not leaving it in a best-for-everything mode, an event timer might not start in the mode you expected. I checked on an timer and noticed black borders on all four sides ("normal" mode) and wasn't sure that's how I left it. I changed it immediately to zoom, but haven't used timers enough to decide if there's anything wrong. But it might have been nice to be able to have event timers switch to a particular mode.

Yes you can't program the remote to control your TV. So no on-off control. But the remote does control volume on the DTVpal itself, which probably wouldn't work that great between passthrough and normal modes, but will handle lowering the volume during commercials, etc.

Channel changing is pretty dumb. DTVpal has no decimal or underscore, and the * and # don't work in their place. So if you want to change to a specific channel, like 8.1, you can't type 8*1, you have to type in 00801. Fortunately the recall button at least lets you switch back and forth between two channels. The RCA has a dash on the remote control, although admittedly it's hard to get the thumb there while holding the remote.

A few other minor peeves, in case any Dish engineers are reading:

- You can delete channels, but you can't disable them like with the RCA. With the RCA you could mark channels as stored, and it would skip past them when changing channels, but you could still punch in the channel number and change to that channel. But with DTVpal, once you delete a channel (like the weather report sidechannel or some other cheesy thing) you can only watch it by adding it back.

- Setting event timers is one level deeper in the menu than it needs to be (under "setup", while there was plenty of room to put it in the top level menu.) The result is it's faster to get started setting an event timer by flicking to the guide.


Everything considered, I have to go with the DTVpal over the RCA. I probably wouldn't have even gotten the RCA (which I got first) if I had known at the time about the name change from echostar TR-40. So a personal note to Dish: between the delays, the change of the branding name, the product name change that was done, undone, and maybe now redone, the change in distribution chains, and so forth, it's a good thing this product was had a unique feature worth waiting for, because honestly I felt more like a landlord trying to run into a delinquent tenant than a customer a company was trying to sell their product to. It was only the unique feature of the event timer and the good reviews here that gave me the confidence to buy what I otherwise would have steered well clear of. So if sales fall short of desired, be slow to blame the product.

I hope this is informative...
 
Thanks for the comparison to the RCA.

One thing you didn't mention was how the video quality compared between the two units.

Although to be honest, at least according to cnet, the RCA has rather inferior video quality, so it's not on my short list.

At this point, I'm almost tempted to buy both the Zenith and DTVPal w/o coupons, try them both out, return both, and buy the winner with my coupon. My unwillingness to buy with the intention of definitely returning will stop me from doing this, but I must admit that my frustration in trying to get information does leave me tempted a little bit.
 
Got one of the units from Sears and posting some technical info.
1st - there is a provision to update FW via OTA signal - see a snapshot of it.
2nd - using the device I got 49 stations(services) while Venturer found 45 ( I should check levels for both devices on same channels soon),
3rd - on bottom of PCB is locating special chip U602, very similar to internal smart card in ViP DVR and receivers without regular add-on smart card, it had six digits of serial number and four hexdigits of ID,
4th - on the PCB square power receptical could be replaced by regular with round connector - additional soldering holes presenting for that swap, AC adapter is +5V 2 A.
Also posting System Info snapshot. Processor ID and that 6 digits on 'security chip' U602 are different.
 

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Got one of the units from Sears and posting some technical info.
1st - there is a provision to update FW via OTA signal - see a snapshot of it.

What were the circumstances under which your Pal displayed this screen? Haven't heard of it before! Has your firmware number changed?
 
After I did install J9 jumper.

Nope, I did wait for 4 min only; not sure if our local stations broadcasts new post-F1.01 FW for the box now. Perhaps in a future.

I'm thinking what the purpose of the "smart chip" ? Is there any plans for OTA broadcasters make sub for money ?
 
OK, I don't like hidden feature like the sort of smart card in simple ATSC receiver [DTVPal aka TR-40], so I removed it - the converter working fine without it !
If Dish soon will decide we must pay for the EPG processing and will push some restriction into the smart card, I'm free from Big Brother. :D

EDIT. Added a picture of a corner the PCB with removed rectangular DC connector; you can see other two and three pins connectors what could fit in there, so using regular AC adapter 5VDC with round plug will give wide selection of external AC/DC bricks.
On second picture you can see empty spot, where was 'smart chip' installed.
 

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If Dish soon will decide we must pay for the EPG processing and will push some restriction into the smart card, I'm free from Big Brother. :D

Oh, please, please, please let Dish try that! Can you say class action suit? I'm sure the courts would have a field day with a company taking away a feature they already sold you.
 
Actually there is a lot of speculation could go about purpose of the "smart card" chip hidden in ATSC tuner.
Get used to conditional access (CA) modules (ATSC A/70). I'm betting that everyone will need one at some point. The idea was supposed to be that they would be user replaceable.
 
Get used to conditional access (CA) modules (ATSC A/70). I'm betting that everyone will need one at some point. The idea was supposed to be that they would be user replaceable.


Do tell. First I've ever heard of it. :confused:

I did a little googling...and I am not sure what the idea is. Scrambled OTA TV ( CBS,NBC,FOX,ABC)?

Or a new service using the ATSC OTA standard like the old AT&T service?
 
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Do tell. First I've ever heard of it. :confused:

I did a little googling...and I am not sure what the idea is. Scrambled OTA TV ( CBS,NBC,FOX,ABC)?

Or a new service using the ATSC OTA standard like the old AT&T service?

First I'd heard of it too. Go to page 22 of this pdf for the overview:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_70a_with_amend_1.pdf

Could it be they are using this to securely send software downloads to the Pal? Don't want their fine programming :eek: to be hacked?
 
So, Dish is the first company who [silently] push own conditional access based on Nagravision encryption ( read NagraStar LLC) to ATSC tuner's market.
Well, there is a lot of money to take from our pockets who don't have sat subscription.
 
Perhaps there is a bigger picture here. Dish recently bid and won a swatch of frequencies from the DTV sale. Could it be they are going to set up a mini OTA system that the boxes can tune to, and already have a smartcard built in?

They could probably squeeze 10 channels in...
 

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