FYI, The old voom box CAN receive E*!

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geekygizmo

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 7, 2003
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This has been dis'd many times on this board but look what I found while looking over datasheets of at the actual chips used in the DSR-550 (the voom receiver)

The whole box is built around this chip from broadcom "BC7035", see the product brief here

http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7035-PB03-403-R.pdf

I found this very interesting blub.

“A MPEG-2 DVB/DC2-compliant transport DEMUX with 3 transport stream inputs has advanced section filtering capability, DVB descrambler, DES descrambler with ECB/CCB capability, and 2 ISO7816 smart card interfaces. The DES descrambler complies with the DVS 213 requirements for the transport stream POD interface.”

If that was greek to you just focus at the term "DVB" (used several times), this is the EXACT transmission standard dish uses. Also notice the way they say at the top it says "DVB/DC2-compliant" which means it is both DVB and Digi-Cipher2 - ready. (Voom used DC2) Hence with the proper software it is also dish ready!!!

Another interesting feature of the chip is a PVR, while all the hardware is NOT in the Voom box for that to work, another download from mot* will make the box do E* just fine.

Also the mpeg4 upgrade slot is real and ready!!!

Will this happen? Only time can tell....

GG
 

Hall

SatelliteGuys Master
Feb 14, 2004
18,409
3,194
Germantown OH
How do you anticipate getting Dish's software on the box ?? Your analogy is like saying my x86 PC running Windows is capable of running Linux. Yeap, it can, but not without a lot of work or changes.
 

rkrenicki

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 11, 2005
976
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Of course the chipset is capable of it.. the BCM7035RKPB3 is used in a number of HD Set top boxes, including the Motorola DCTs, the Scientific Atlanta Explorers, and even the Dish Network/DirecTV HD boxes.

DVB basically just means Transport Streams, or MPEG2 broadcast streams. Just about any MPEG2 Video source is considered DVB.

With the commercial headend equipment (such as a DSR-4500 for example) has what is called ASI out, which is the normal MPEG2 TS Backhaul in broadcast, which is also a DVB standard. (actually is called DVB-ASI)

Just because it can decode DVB, does not mean the software was written to use DVB-S (sattelite), or DVB-T (terrestral), or even DVB-C (cable).

I agree with the prior poster, yes my PC can run Macintosh software, but its not wired for it, and the software is definately not made to do it without serious modification.. but the chip itself is physically capable of it.

Bottom line is, yes the hardware (chips) can do it (although may not be physically wired to handle it), but, no the software cant.

I suggest in the future, before posting something with a definate "YES IT CAN" you double check your facts.
 

geekygizmo

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 7, 2003
67
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Yes, it can with a software download!

I rebut, I have seen many posts on this board where it was said the hardware would not EVER support it, Again all I am doing with this post is FYI

If no one is interested in this info and only wants to argue then mods please delete, I will go away.

gg
 

rkrenicki

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 11, 2005
976
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Do you have proof that the chipset is wired to handle DVB-S that noone else has?

Again, I will say that the chips are capable of it, but may not be physically wired for it, since the board was not designed to do it..

That, and the fact that your arguement hinges on software that has not been developed, and most likely will never be. (why let people use "old" hardware for free, when you can sell them new hardware?)

The problem I have with this is your title, which infers that it absolutely can.. that someone can pick up a DSR550, connect it to dish right now, and it will work, which is simply not the case.
 

lilyarbie

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 5, 2005
347
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It may be possible to use for FTA then...........

I'm trying to figure out if the box has the capability for FTA purposes using DVB. It is definately not useful for DVB via cable or terrestrial (OTA). The frequencies this box is capable of doing a frequency between the range of 950.00 to 2150.00, since this is the range that is down converted via the LNB.
Also, the installation guide states this as well. Under coding mode in the manual tune menu, which is found via the "hidden" system configuration menu, it lists different coding modes. One coding mode it does list is DVB-Q3/4. So therefore, it must have the capability to decode DVB. The problem is that the EMM Provider ID is forced on the receivers by the Voom Programming software. I've been trying to figure out how to change this number by the satellite meter that has the number inputted in it, but it is to no avail. I have been able to lock onto Echostar-3 by the frequency for the High Definition Promo channel that is in the "clear," but we haven't been able to get it displayed. I'm getting a 99% signal quality off of the satellite. Check "It's Yours" thread in News and Updates here on the Voom forum for my pictures and the settings for locking on to this satellite. I'm in the process of the formation of what I call the "Voom Receiver Project". It is a website that will be dedicated to figuring out the inner workings of the receiver and be able to display PSIP data on the programming guide for HD local channels. Another goal is to figure out a way to make the box capable of FTA (Free-To-Air). It is not the intention of this project to descramble or decrypt channels from other channels that are not in the "clear." After these goals are obtained, we might figure out a way to make the receiver into a DVR and be able to network the receiver to other existing receivers via the USB port. Some of these goals may be unobtainable, but it's worth a shot.
 

johnalan

SatelliteGuys Family
Nov 27, 2004
51
0
DVB is like saying FM. The basic method of transmission betwen Voom, Dish, Direct, etc, are all Digital Video Broadcasts. However, the systems are NOT compatible as different algorhytms are used. As you could not use a Direct receiver to get Dish, you will not be able to use a Voom receiver to get Direct or Dish.
Same species, different animal...not compatible, sorry.
 

geekygizmo

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 7, 2003
67
0
Hi, Lilyarbile!

glad to finally hear some constructive discussion on the subject!! I want to figure out too what the box is really capable of. With over 40k box's not far from paperweights I thought any info on possible other uses would be welcome. Please pm me and let me know where your going to set up shop, I will have much of the hardware traced out soon. And I don't think the BCM7035 needs rewired to do DVB, it's all in how you diddle the mode registers and since you already found a DVB selection in the hidden menus that could really mean fta may be in the near future. You can be sure mot* had tested all of this and just put a block in the software when it was customized for voom.

GG
 

bobhaze

SatelliteGuys Family
Nov 28, 2004
72
0
Sorry I can't help so much with this technically. Although I'm in engineering my expertise is far afield of satellite receivers. However I have a couple of thoughts along the lines of places that might contain some clues.
I've seen reports of the DS550 used for one of the Canadian sat companies. I don't know if the Canadian company used DVB or not, but if they do, their version of the box might be worth investigating. It would imply that Moto has already done the heavy liftingas far as the SW or firmware is concerned. Even if this is not the case, it might be worth investigating some of the other Moto boxes. The most logical development path for M* to have used when developing the box for V* would have been to take a modular approach by adapting some standard platform they already used elsewhere. A clean-sheet design would probably not make economic sense, so all the ingredients may already be in place just waiting for the right SW.
It would be great if E* decided to support these boxes. It would likely mean that most of them would turn into additional mirror fees, and maybe even force a few subscribers off the fence. I would even pay a reasonable fee for the SW and Smart card to make it work, but in reality I figure winning Powerball has better odds than E* giving a s* about these boxes.

Bob
 

Iceberg

The No Pain Train
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
282
39
None Your Business
The Canadian system using it is StarChoice, but you can't authorize a Voom box because the serial numbers are registered to Voom, not SC

SC uses DCII encryption
 

lilyarbie

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 5, 2005
347
0
Iceberg is right on that issue.........

He's the big expert on satellite systems over at the FTA forum. He'd know whether or not something will work or not. It's kinda like a comparison with trying to buy a digital cable box off of Ebay, informing your cable company about it, and then having your cable company say it won't work because of underlying compatibility issues with hardware. By the way Iceberg, what do you think about FTA with the DSR-550 Motorola receiver? With DVB coding ability through the hidden menu, it seems possible to me. Also, can you provide me with any more information that you may have on either the International Promo channel on Echostar-3 or the HD Promo channel at Echostar-3? It might be easier to get some more progress out of the "clear" SD channel first and then go on to the "clear" HD channel. Can you provide any information concerning the international promo channel here: coding information or version (1.91 I know is the one for the HD promo channel), symbol rate, frequency of the channel itself and not transponder frequency?
I've already got the polarization down pat, so that part I know, but I just need the other information to go further on my research. Here's the pics on my satellite meter and the menu settings for the lock onto the HD Promo channel:
 

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rkrenicki

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 11, 2005
976
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The other issue that I forgot to mention is decryption.. There is no Nagravision CAM in the DSR550.. There are two CAMs in this unit:

XC420061-006 Digicipher II CAM
MB87F2011 Videoguard CAM

I suppose a complete re-write of the software may allow FTA DVB, but without either using a software cam (which exists, but I doubt that E* would ever use it), or adding a hardware one, Nagravision would not be possible.

Also, what is this about the MPEG4 Upgrade Slot? Are you talking about the PCMCIA slot on the side?
 

lilyarbie

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 5, 2005
347
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The Nagravision wouldn't be necessary for FTA.....

Nagravision does not exist with FTA. Nagravision is a scrambler or encrypter for channels not in the clear. These channels are illegal to obtain anyway without having the right equipment and paying the subscription costs for them as well. In reference to the MPEG-4 function, I think he's talking about the slot on the side of the receiver that was going to be used for a future MPEG-4 converter for receiving channels in MPEG-4 via Voom satellite service.
Since no converter exists and since it would be a pain in the butt to create one, I think that this receiver would be too costly to fix for MPEG-4 reception via Echostar. Unless you could find someone who was a developer selling the part on Ebay. I know this has been true in the past with Electronics developers who scrapped their work and sold it on Ebay due to the fact the product they were developing it for such as a game console or some other device went down the tube. That's what I'm hoping for with a software developer kit for the DSR-550. Maybe some programmer from Voom will sell his or her own personal copy on Ebay to get rid of it.
 

rkrenicki

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 11, 2005
976
0
You are absolutely right, Nagravision would be unnecessary for FTA, however this thread's title states that this box CAN recieve Dish Networking programming, which is all Nagravision.

Doubtful, dev kits for stuff like this is usually property of the manufacturer (in this case Motorola).. it would have to be surrendered back to them. Besides, the software was written by Ucentric, which is now part of motorola... Vooms input on the software was probably limited to what it needed to do, and graphical layout..

On a side note, when I had my Voom service installed, I was told that side PCMCIA slot was for the future DVR function, but this was before MPEG4 was really being talked about..
 

rkrenicki

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 11, 2005
976
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For those here who know what I am doing, I am all for this kind of techinical discussion.

But just stating opinion as fact is the big problem I have with this. (such as the OP saying that it can recieve E* programming... that is his opinion, not based on facts)
 

rkrenicki

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 11, 2005
976
0
In regards to the signal meter there, I notice that it says "Signal Level" not "Signal Quality".. now, this could just be a verbage issue, but since there is a strong Ku signal on E3, it may just be reading the flat out signal level, not actually locking onto the data stream, or even having a readable (eg, able to decode) data stream (signal quality)..

FTAers know from experience, signal level means nothing, signal quality means everything. But, as I said this may just be verbage confusion in the software too.
 

Iceberg

The No Pain Train
Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2003
282
39
None Your Business
The only thing the Voom box MAY be able to receive is unencrypted DCII programming (like PBS on AMC3). You would need a 30” dish and a different LNB

But I have tried this before and it doesn’t work. Yes the signal registers, but it says “please wait…we are processing your request. So it really doesn’t work.

Picking up Dish aint gonna happen. Dish uses DVB and Voom/StarChoice is DCII

It would be like cramming that Beta tape in the VHS :D
 

geekygizmo

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 7, 2003
67
0
Is the cam not the card itself?? At least in the case of NV, With a DVB decoder and a valid card I assumed that would get dish (With their blessing of course). As far as the title, it may turn out not to be a fact - I was only trying to start a dialog, if it turns out to be untrue then the posts will prove or disprove it, but these personnal attacks are not getting anyone anywhere. Lets stop splitting hairs and work on the issue at hand... Please!

GG
 

rkrenicki

SatelliteGuys Pro
Mar 11, 2005
976
0
What personal attacks? :confused: I do not see any here, I am stating facts on the hardware and software capabilities. In no way have I attacked or demeaned you here.... the only thing that I could possibly see as a "personal attack" was my statement that this is your personal opinion, and not necessarily based on actual fact.

The card is not the CAM, it is the subscriber card, usually handles baseline authentication, and key exchanges, the CAM does the actual decrypt. As I said before, the only CAMs are the DC2 and Videoguard ones, so those are the only things it can decrypt in hardware.

That being said, the E* and BEV hackers have figured out a way to decrupt Nagravision in software (without a hardware CAM), so software decode is possible, but I highly doubt that E* would ever consider using it (or anything like it). Making a software Nagravision 2 CAM would be a bad idea if anyone ever got their hands on it..

You mention not to split hairs, but this discussion is exactly about the hairs.. the nitty-gritty in this box. Your opinion is based on incomplete facts, and I am trying to show you that this is the case. While yes, the BCM7035 processor is capable of it, the rest of the hardware and software was not designed to do it.

As far as the title, it may turn out not to be a fact - I was only trying to start a dialog, if it turns out to be untrue then the posts will prove or disprove it
That is all fine and good, however, my attempts to disprove it, you are taking as personal attacks. ;)
 
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