G-box issue help requested.....

[radio]

Successful change today of 4DTV to DSR 410, meant the long awaited install of the G-box sitting in-box since August.

Dish was left on AMC-1/W-1 for reference, 4D removed, G-box installed with coax, and motor wires transferred first, then sensor wires.

4DTV had a ground post on rear panel, G-box does not. Not sure if I need to ground the sensor wire, but think so, as it's under (daytime) 5kw of RF. Could be the G-box doesn't ground well, and RF causes issues with the error:

G-box errors when trying to move dish (Birdview,) but will "bump it." I did not put limits into it as they are not required by the box.

Pretty darn sure I did it "by the book"....and there are those who don't believe the G-box can mover a birdview, but others have said, "no problem."

Plan on applying DC to the motor tomorrow, (12 volt) to verify it can move, and will watch for pulses on a meter. It was functioning fine with 4D driving positioning for FTA, but earlier today, in re-working 4D before taking it offline, there were a few motor errors, which cleared themselves by hitting the "back" button on the 4D and going back to the aligning of dish for programming satellites. Yes, it's cold, nasty weather today, but don't think that's it. Odd that the problem would develop right before retiring the 4D, and then carry through.

Will also check for off-kilter magnet wheel in better weather tomorrow.

Any thoughts from the forum gang appreciated.

 

[FaT Air]

Could very well be RF saturating the Gbox sensor cktry. Only way to know for sure is hooking it up, away from the RF source. Then bring the setup back to the RF source. Try grounding the ground shield of the sensor wires at the actuator end only. Grounding at both ends may introduce a "ground loop". Maybe some .01uf caps on the sensor leads is all it will require. Might need an RF tight enclosure with filtered feed-thru.

 

[radio]

Still trying to make the Gbox function on a birdview dish. I've been reading about the increased amount of pulses a GBOX can read. Is it "expecting" more? My Birdview is the gearing system that was the slower of the two. Is it possible that the "E-2" is because the unit is expecting more pulses in a shorter time? I've already made sure the reed-switch is only a business card distance from the magnetic wheel which is what we recommended 20 years ago during installs.

Going to put the 4D back in as positioner to verify the connections are still good. If they are, signs are pointing to a non-happy G-box. Maybe I'm a candidate for a version of the V-box given my slower motor/less pulses per "instance" of measurement?

 

[hd fan]

E-2 means no pulses have been read. either because the dish did not moved or it did but the sensor failed to send a pulse or it did not received the pulse. But it has nothing to do with your actuator being faster or able to send more/less pulses per inch.

I am more inclined to beleive it happened because the Dish did not moved probably because the GBOX did not send enough amps to make it move(analog boxes i have seen claim up to 5 amps , I think these V/GBoxes are rated 3.5 only). Does it happen only at the extremes? or could it happen anywhere? Snow on the dish makes it heavier too. Yes you were in heaven (4DTV/analog)and just went back to earth as far as dish mover is concern.

 

[radio]

We'll know about the amps when the 4D as a mover-only goes back online, probably tomorrow. If it turns out that the power supply to the BV motor is the issue in the G-box, what are some other options that will properly move the Birdview and (hopefully) interface via the diseq for FTA?

You are correct. Never, in all my 20-plus years of knowing/owning/ and for some years installing birdivew did we ever have a problem with a mover not having enough "oomph."

Thanks! Open to ideas for mover if this is, indeed the problem.

 

[radio]

Update that confuses me even more...G-BOX on Birdview...

Given the fact that we did not change any wiring to the Birdview H-H motor or actuator, and only swapped-out the device that actually does the work inside, a light-bulb went off in my head!

Why not use a 12-volt charger/starter box on its "standard" (not jump start) settings to move the motor (very slowly of course) and keep the sensor wires connected to an energized G-Box, so I can see if counts are received.

I was able to move off of W-1, with around 20 counts with voltage applied, the G-box noted the pulses and the display changed. Then, I reversed the wires supplying DC voltage to the motor, sent it back to W-1 from inside, expecting to see "00" on the display, but it never returned to "0". It did register, however to a degree.

So, our motor drive wiring is fine, our counts are likely working...
Is this the symptom of a bad G-Box, or...as someone suggested, one unable to move a birdview? I don't think we need to replace any wires.

At this point, if I could find a smaller "stand alone" positioner like we used to have with GI receivers of years gone by, and had to manually dial-in the FTA satellites, I'd be okay with that.....if we can't find a positioner that plays nice with Birdview's current/other needs. Perhaps an old General Instrument 350si? (I think that's the positioner--but know nothing about it.....there's a bunch on ebay listed as "receivers" which are obviously not...and I remember these from the days of 2-unit receiver/positioners of the 80's.)

STILL open for ideas.......and grateful for the forum and help thus far!

 

[Pixl]

Radio,

First a hello from Traverse city, Michigan, where in Mich. are you? Maybe not too far away. I've got a G-box with a lot of experience getting it to work this past summer. Turns out my probs were limitations of the receiver and the G-box actually was working well the whole time. One question how many wires are used for control? The G-box has two, but my actuator uses three. The third being +5 volts that the G-box doesn't output. I used an old cell phone charger to supply 5 volts to the third wire, working fine now. My actuator is a "Von Weise" with optical pickup sensor. What brand/model is your actuator?

Jim

 

[radio]

Radio,

First a hello from Traverse city, Michigan, where in Mich. are you? Maybe not too far away. I've got a G-box with a lot of experience getting it to work this past summer. Turns out my probs were limitations of the receiver and the G-box actually was working well the whole time. One question how many wires are used for control? The G-box has two, but my actuator uses three. The third being +5 volts that the G-box doesn't output. I used an old cell phone charger to supply 5 volts to the third wire, working fine now. My actuator is a "Von Weise" with optical pickup sensor. What brand/model is your actuator?

Jim

Greetings from Ionia, MI! Nice to have a fellow Michigan Resident on the board!

The actuator is an original Birdview, horizon to horizon with 36 volt system, a worm-gear drive all enclosed, and a reed-switch sensing a magnetic-wheel on the end
of the gears. Worked great on all my IRD's but doesn't like this setup!

The wiring is standard, two motor wires for the 36 volt to the birdview (same as the 4D receiver was), along with two wires from a reed-switch and rotating magnet assembly at the birdview. The difference I see is that the 4D allowed for a ground connection to the 4D chassis on a third wire, attached to the shield and metal housing of the motor drive assembly, where the G-box does not. Now, back in the "old" days, we simply paralleled the shield/ground onto one of the pulse terminals.

I figure we either don't have enough "oomph" as one person put it, or....something causing bad report-back to the G-box, but I am encouraged to know that there is no damage to my motor wires.

Being under a 5kw radio station does not help, but it did not "hinder" the 4D setup, either. I have a toroid coil filter wrapped around the pulse wires at the dish, tried removing it, but had no negative effect, and keeping it "on" certainly may help with keeping RF out of the system.

Can't wait to get this one figured out!
May run fresh wires out to the dish temporarily above ground just to see what happens.....

UPDATE: Found 15.6 volts on the terminals of the "sensor" connection in back of the G-box. (not on the motor wires.) Disconnected the sensor wires, and attached them to a digital meter with "continuity beep" function. Applied 12 volts once again from EXTERNAL source to the motor wires, and the beep was a steady on/off/on/off, meaning my reed-sensor switch is NOT toast, but likely the G-Box is.

Was there a batch of these that had this problem? I've read elsewhere on this forum that the G-box had an issue of voltage appearing on the sensor lines, and knew it was to be "0" on it. Luckily, I'm still in the "reed sensor" game for the birdview. It survived. Looks like the voltage on the line was negating or overpowering any pulse that may have been there!

Thoughts on this?? I think I'm on track! (and I need a new positioner box!!....bought this one in August, just un-boxed two weeks ago.)

 

[brex2001]

What GBox serial number do you have? I bought mine from Sadoun about 8-10 months ago, S/N 0905100118. Never had any problems with it yet, but the production serial # range/date of production of these could be useful identifiers.
Just a suggestion.

 

[Pixl]

UPDATE: Found 15.6 volts on the terminals of the "sensor" connection in back of the G-box. (not on the motor wires.) Disconnected the sensor wires, and attached them to a digital meter with "continuity beep" function. Applied 12 volts once again from EXTERNAL source to the motor wires, and the beep was a steady on/off/on/off, meaning my reed-sensor switch is NOT toast, but likely the G-Box is.
..bought this one in August, just un-boxed two weeks ago.)

I bought mine from Sadoun this past summer, the 15v. is aways there on my G-box, gets pulled down to almost 0 during a contact closure of the reed switch.
When trouble shooting, I brought the actuator in the house and set everything up on the kitchen table. All connected with temporary short wires where you can watch the receiver, G-box, and actuator in one glance. Then start trying your tests. Less wires is less of a chance of RF from your nearby tower to get in. What station is it anyhow? Do you work there?

Jim

 

[radio]

The serial number is 0905100035. Bought in August of this year, stored til just recently. One problem could be that I bought one of their "bargains" which is a return.....but apparently it had an issue. I wouldn't have known to check for voltage on the sensor terminals if it weren't for someone else posting info on this site. (Which is SO cool...thanks again for the existence of this site!)

The terms on the Sadoun site seem pretty black & white, and I don't look like I'm eligible for any help, and repair would cost almost as much as another positioner. So, we search. Hope the info you requested helps. It's not their fault I didn't install soon enough to find a problem. Wish I had.

 

[radio]

The station is WION in Ionia, MI. I own it, and do management/Mornings. I've removed the G-Box for now, and am putting the 4D positioner back online. I've never had a voltage on a sensor in the old STS, HTS, or 4D receivers as I recall. In fact, the possibility of a voltage on the reed-switch at all was an invitation for failure of the switch/sensor! This is all very interesting!

 

[brex2001]

The serial number is 0905100035. Bought in August of this year, stored til just recently. One problem could be that I bought one of their "bargains" which is a return.....but apparently it had an issue. I wouldn't have known to check for voltage on the sensor terminals if it weren't for someone else posting info on this site. (Which is SO cool...thanks again for the existence of this site!)

The terms on the Sadoun site seem pretty black & white, and I don't look like I'm eligible for any help, and repair would cost almost as much as another positioner. So, we search. Hope the info you requested helps. It's not their fault I didn't install soon enough to find a problem. Wish I had.

Yeah, mine was an Ebay auction priced low to start so it may been a return also. One never knows until later. No disrespect intended Sadoun.

I'm cleaning out my closet & have an analog GI2400 & 2000PS I may put up for adoption. If you're interested.

 

[radio]

At this point, I'm tempted to go back to manual adjustment of FTA dish. (not outside, but not in any way connected to the FTA receiver by a protocol) You know, the funny part is, the old-style "potentiometer" sensor on the ORIGINAL birdview units worked first with a knob, then went digital..and, in all honesty, putting the FTA back to that wouldn't be so terrible! And, they were "remote ready", too..if I can find one digital box with remote for the codes to put into a "learning remote" But yes, I'd look at options right now! Feel free to PM with info, and if possible a pic or two of the unt(s). I agree, by the way on the "no disrespect intended" to a supporter of this site, but...it appears there may be a problem with some of the positioners if I have my collected facts correct.

 

[FaT Air]

Since you could move the dish, with a battery, and the Gbox counted the pulses, I tend to think it is drawing too much current. I'd hook it up again with 2 batterys, for 24 volts, and have an ammeter inline, to see what it does draw. There is no other way to rule this out
The shield should not be connected to anything at the Gbox end. Only connect it to ground(metal) at the dish end. (ground loop and/or conduction of RF into the Gbox, where it could cause problems) Also, you can put a small"grain 'o wheat lamp on the sensor leads connected to the Gbox (or other mover) and watch the pulses. Missing pulses are pretty easy to see. I use a 12v, 50ma lamp.Similar to a R/S #272-1092

 

[radio]

Thank you to everyone for the input thus far......Here's my general plan...
1) Compare notes with a few other people...
2) Replace G-box.

So, everyone has their own solution to C-band movers. I see GREAT reviews of G-box, I see a few people with problems similar to what mine was, and, I see a few fans of the V-box, and some that have their troubles as well. My G-box put out 15 volts on the sensor terminals....my 4D unit around 3 (across the two sensor terminals, no 5v used for a birdview.) I think the G-box just didn't like the birdview, but I'd be curious to know what the voltage is across others' properly functioning G-boxes.

So, with the resurgence in interest on this site about positioners, I've sold the old G-box (as-is, explaining my problem) and..I'm ready to replace it. I can get a "new" one, not from the catalog return section, I can go "V-box"....or, I can even (maybe??) go back in time to manual changing of position and buy a NOS GI 350ips which appears to be a stand-alone positioner, but manual operation. Or.....skyvision still has the "AP 600" unit, but it doesn't have the automatic interface with my Pansat.

Thoughts?
Voltages on working G-boxes across the sensor terminals (with no load, no wires attached just to settle my curiosity).....?????

Im listening, and I'm GRATEFUL for your input.

From the "Now white" Central West Michigan area....(where we now warn people for 6" of snow...it wasn't that way when I was growing up..)

-Radio