Has Dish become the new pig?

[datwell]

I've just GOT to chime in here! I have a somewhat different view and I am not an ex-Voomer - had Dish for years.

I view the Voom channels as a separate offering, i.e., like HBO, Showtime, etc. and I would not be surprised if he adds another $5 when he brings up the other 11 channels. Now even at $10/mo., it would be a long time before we got up to the cost of my Sony KDF55XS955!!!

Dish is still miles better than my cable pig (Cox of Fairfax County, VA). Charlie still gives you more value for your money, IMHO.

da Doug

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I am getting tired of shelling out money every time Charley gets an itch in his pants.

Sigh....

I am normally Anti Charlie, but in this case I applaud Charlie. He listened for once, and while I would rather have the VOOM Channels free, I can deal with the $5 a month charge.

You yourself admit you have been a cuting edge customer, you purchased all your own equipment etc... Sometimes the old saying "good things come to those who wait" fits here.

I also purchased all my equipment. But I have no problem with the offer Dish is making (again I am saving $45 a month because of this)

It seems as some people thing Charlie owes them something (Free HD receiver, DVR, HD Dish upgrade etc...) just because they have a HDTV. Dish get no kick backs from HDTV sales to provide all this HD programming and technology and must charge for it.

I don't think Charlie should be saying, "Hey I noticed you have a HDTV, so as my gift to you for buying such a nice expensive set, I am going to give you free equipment and programming to enjoy on that nice HDTV."

 

[Harry]

I guess I timed my purchases well or have a different point of view.

Here is my (hardware) purchase history with Dish.

I purchased my initial Dish 300 system from Dish Depot in January 1999. This included a Dish 300, Self Install Kit, 4700 and 2700 receivers. My total cost for all this was $0 plus a $50 credit on my first bill.

When E* came out with the Dish 500 I received a free upgrade with $25 shipping. Since I installed it myself they gave me a $25 credit on my next bill. Net cost to me $0.

I paid full price for my 501-DVR (pre-order) but traded my 2700 in for a $30 credit at Dish Depot. Net cost to me $249.

Added my 508 in 2003 for $149 through Dish. Retired my 4700 and sold for $70. Net cost to me $79.

Added my 811 at the beginning of 2004 for $149 including install. Dish upgraded my legacy LNBF's on my 500 and 300 (for 148)to DishPro and Installed a DP34. Sold my legacy LNBF's and switches for $45. Net cost to me $109.

Let's see so far I've invested $387 and I have a Dish 500, Dish 300, DishPro Twin LNBF, DishPro Dual LNBF, DishPro 34 switch, Dish 501, Dish 508, Dish 811. I've also signed up 4 people through club dish for total programming credits of $240. That brings my investment down to $147.


NightRyder

Hey! I think you have morphed into an installer thru OJT!!! For me, I am tempted to let my stuff die via obsolecence. (The 811 will make a fine boat anchor)

I am now thinking when Mpeg4 comes around we'll once again get to contribute to the "send a Charley to camp" fund. After all the 811 bugs, unknowlegable CSR's and progession at a clip that makes a snail look like a speed demon, you have to ask the basic question of if it's worth it. I will pare down my E* bill for now and see what takes place in the future.

 

[Harry]

I am normally Anti Charlie, but in this case I applaud Charlie. He listened for once, and while I would rather have the VOOM Channels free, I can deal with the $5 a month charge.

You yourself admit you have been a cuting edge customer, you purchased all your own equipment etc... Sometimes the old saying "good things come to those who wait" fits here.

I also purchased all my equipment. But I have no problem with the offer Dish is making (again I am saving $45 a month because of this)

It seems as some people thing Charlie owes them something (Free HD receiver, DVR, HD Dish upgrade etc...) just because they have a HDTV. Dish get no kick backs from HDTV sales to provide all this HD programming and technology and must charge for it.

I don't think Charlie should be saying, "Hey I noticed you have a HDTV, so as my gift to you for buying such a nice expensive set, I am going to give you free equipment and programming to enjoy on that nice HDTV."

It is not so much what he did as to how he did it. There seems to be no direction at E*. Even you have criticized Charley for this. My problem with Charley is he provides no up front information as to his direction, future fees or any real heads up on anything. Try to find any info on all of this on the Dish Web Site. Charley Chat is a joke if you care to waste your time watching it. (Bingo TV - Woo Hoo)

To me, the wording of the press release you posted is quite bad and leads you to beleive that after the wait, the rinky dink HD Package would get better. It really didn't and now you get pay an additional $5 a month. Charley will change his horse mid stream and charge you for it. E* is now up there with cable in terms of cost.

What is he going to do when Mpeg-4 comes around? Make me re-invest in new receivers or make it affordable and reward me for being a long time customer? (Do I really need to answer that?)

I'm not looking for free stuff, just stuff thats worth paying for.

 

[normang]

When you order everything under the sun, if its still cheaper than the competition, and it compares in content, then its still somewhat of a bargain.

The bargain comes in for those that want a basic package with the more popular cable channels that cost less than cable. So starter packages could still be considered a bargain over cable..

 

[rowemance]

I think you all need to take a look in the mirror. For the last weeks I read all of you wining that Voom was dead and why doesn't some one save them. Well you got your wish and you are much better off for it, NOt only are you getting your Voom back but you have a lot more programming to go with it. I was at Team Summit when the announcement was made and they NEVER said at no additional charge. I sure Cablevision is getting paid for these channels. And nobody is forcing you to take them you have an option.

 

[Stargazer]

The reason why they are charging $100 is due to the fact that they have to provide an expensive switch, pay for a switch and pay for installation. They are only getting $5 more per month and probably only making a few dollars more per month after paying VoOm. They figure if they add more channels it would entice more to get the HD package. I expect the price to increase again though once the other VoOm channels come next year.

With the way this is developing so far maybe one will be able to pick and choose channels more with the HD package than with the current SD packages until most channels get changed over to HD/digital.

 

[tonyp56]

No need to flame here. I was just stating an opinion. I'm not a fan of paying $10 for 5 channels of HD at Directv, but, I know that they will be adding a lot more, and D*, IMHO has a better price for their service.

Tonyp56, please calm down. People are just stating their opinion, no need for flaming them either.

I wasn't trying to flame anyone, and I am sorry if you felt that way, I am sorry!

What I was trying to say is that we all (myself included) have been giving Dish Network, Charlie Ergen, etc. a lot of hell, we gripe about everything, and rightfully so IMO, however, Dish has made a VAST step in the right direction, they added more HD, and really is there really that much HD out there other than what they added, I've heard about Starz HD, INHD, ESPN2HD, etc. and really are those channels that much better than what they added? Adding these 10 Voom channels is a good step in the right direction, I'd think you'd have to agree with that, however, you and I disagree about the $5. I mean do really expect them to triple your HD package for free (5 to 15 channels), and the gripe about 61.5, think about it, they don't have the room for these channels any where else, and they have been hounded every since the SuperDish fiasco to add more HD. They had the chance, perhaps not the most beneficial chance, yet, adding what they did and how they did was better than nothing. I think $5 is good deal considering thats a $1 per channel.

I agree that we should give Dish Network hell when they do bad, however, I feel that we ought to at least give them some thanks when they do right. You and Harry have been the most vocal when it comes to negative comments about the new channels, and that is why you were mentioned in my post. I just don't understand how you can complain about the new channels on Dish when we've all been wanting more HD for such a long time. We got what we wanted, how can we complain because they want to charge us $5 more a month.

IMHO, I was a Directv customer for seven years, and I compared Directv to Dish Network, and I found that Directv was over priced compared to Dish. I compared channel to channel package to package and Dish came out on top. Perhaps you judge value on a different basis, I don't know, but I can't agree with you about Directv being the better deal. Though I have to say in all honesty, I miss Directv's customer service, equipment, etc. I never knew what I had until I switched to Dish. However, that being said, I don't see myself switching right now, unless Dish does something drastic that I don't like.

 

[tonyp56]

I'll try one more time. We have been waiting for months for more HD programming. The release comes out leading you to believe the 10 channels will be ADDED to the HD Package. But wait! No! That will cost you another $5 a month! Plus another $100 if you don't get the 61.5 satellite. And for what?

==> RUSH HD, Gallery HD, Rave HD, Ultra HD, Equator HD, Monsters HD, Animania HD, Majestic HD, HD News and Guy TV HD <==

Now there is something to get excited about. Had they added ABC, FOX, PBS and NBC HD, Heck, I'd be happy to pay additional money. But not for this crap.

I can gripe because we have been waiting for additional HD channels. Some, like me, have kept the HD Package because of this. The release says "Expanding the HD Package". Had they been forthright about charging more I would really have no problem.

Quite frankly, E* is not much cheaper than cable now and you don't have to have dishes, switches, antenna's, buy additional equipment and rewire your house. What started out as a good thing is now becoming not so good.

NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, FOX, UPN in HD? How about those of us that already get those channels in HD? Because you like them, yet perhaps you can't get em, you are going to force everyone else to pay for them? I am sorry, but the Voom channels are a lot better choice when it comes to National coverage! How about Starz HD or Cinemax HD, tell me something those channels will give me that I don't already have? (and I like to watch movies in HD) And not to even mention ESPN 2 HD, I don't like ESPN HD, (I like stuff on ESPN, I just don't like the feed on the HD channel) why would ESPN2 HD be any better?

I've been wanting more HD for a long time too, hell I've been waiting on my 811 to start working like it was supposed to when I bought it, however, I can't say that Dish doesn't need a pat on the back for doing what they did, they gave us 10 more HD channels. You complain about the $5 as if that is such a large sum of money, thats only 50 cents per new channel, and you don't even have to add the channels right now. When they switch over to MPEG4, what do you think is going to happen to our receivers? Do you think they or Directv will upgrade all of their customers with the newest receiver even if some of their customers still have receivers that are five years old? If you expect that out of Dish, then expect them to go bankrupt.

Yes, the press release said "Expanding the HD package," however, it didn't say anything about not charging for that expansion. How can you honestly expect these channels to be free, because we've wanted more HD for so long? Cause you don't like em? I mean I can't see myself loving HD News, but at least Dish added more HD, I mean look at your programming package now, you are most likely like me and only watch twenty or so channels (plus locals) however we've got hundreds to chose from. Some of the HD that Dish adds won't be the greatest in either of our minds, however, it might in someone else's.

 

[mrschwarz]

I think if you consider typical truth in advertising. They didn't mention the extra charge per month because they didn't consider it an advantage of the new channels. Typically, in advertising, if a feature of a new product is advantageous (as in 'free'), they will go out of their way to make sure you know about it.

The fact that the release did not expressly state that the new channels would be added at no charge should have spoken volumes that they would not be free.

 

[mdonnelly]

I think if you consider typical truth in advertising. They didn't mention the extra charge per month because they didn't consider it an advantage of the new channels. Typically, in advertising, if a feature of a new product is advantageous (as in 'free'), they will go out of their way to make sure you know about it.

The fact that the release did not expressly state that the new channels would be added at no charge should have spoken volumes that they would not be free.

Excellent example. E* didn't say they would do something, then not do it. They just didn't say that they wouldn't do it. Truth.

 

[Harry]

I think if you consider typical truth in advertising. They didn't mention the extra charge per month because they didn't consider it an advantage of the new channels. Typically, in advertising, if a feature of a new product is advantageous (as in 'free'), they will go out of their way to make sure you know about it.

The fact that the release did not expressly state that the new channels would be added at no charge should have spoken volumes that they would not be free.

It boils down to poor wording. I believe it was done that way to deceive/incite people to jump at the chance to get it. It apparently worked and I was also excited about the HD expansion until I got the real details. I am not upset about the dish cost. I understand they can't just give them away and I can certainly find one for a lot cheaper than $100 and install it myself.

The wording

"EchoStar Communications Corporation (Nasdaq: DISH - News) announced that its DISH Network(TM) satellite TV service will expand its high-definition television (HDTV) package by adding 10 original VOOM HD networks, expected to be available May 1, 2005. With the addition of these originals to its current slate of HD programming, DISH Network further establishes itself as the leader in high-definition TV. "

is very misleading. One, they did not become part of it's current Package of HD Programming and two, it is in fact a separate HD package that you will be charged for. It can cetainly be iterpreted both ways. Why not just come out and say it would be a seperate HD Package? Because people would have been put on the defensive concerning cost for "another package".

Now it seems that on top of the still existing 811 bugs, mystery software updates and poor CSR support, we have to play word games with E*.

I see that they are to expand to 21 channels by/in 2006. What do you think the fees will be then? Will they increase? Stay the same? One thing for certain is you will not be given the information from E* in advance.

With all that said, everyone has a choice and mine is not to get it and I am, in fact, dropping the HD Package because I simply do not watch it enough to justify it as I get more and better HD content OTA. This will put my E* bill back to where it is still an advantage over cable. In the future, if E* or D* or another company pops up with something better, I will take a close look and hope they provide timely and accurate information to make a choice. Unfortunately, E* does not have that history behind them.

 

[Neutron]

I wasn't trying to flame anyone, and I am sorry if you felt that way, I am sorry!

What I was trying to say is that we all (myself included) have been giving Dish Network, Charlie Ergen, etc. a lot of hell, we gripe about everything, and rightfully so IMO, however, Dish has made a VAST step in the right direction, they added more HD, and really is there really that much HD out there other than what they added, I've heard about Starz HD, INHD, ESPN2HD, etc. and really are those channels that much better than what they added? Adding these 10 Voom channels is a good step in the right direction, I'd think you'd have to agree with that, however, you and I disagree about the $5. I mean do really expect them to triple your HD package for free (5 to 15 channels), and the gripe about 61.5, think about it, they don't have the room for these channels any where else, and they have been hounded every since the SuperDish fiasco to add more HD. They had the chance, perhaps not the most beneficial chance, yet, adding what they did and how they did was better than nothing. I think $5 is good deal considering thats a $1 per channel.

I agree that we should give Dish Network hell when they do bad, however, I feel that we ought to at least give them some thanks when they do right. You and Harry have been the most vocal when it comes to negative comments about the new channels, and that is why you were mentioned in my post. I just don't understand how you can complain about the new channels on Dish when we've all been wanting more HD for such a long time. We got what we wanted, how can we complain because they want to charge us $5 more a month.

IMHO, I was a Directv customer for seven years, and I compared Directv to Dish Network, and I found that Directv was over priced compared to Dish. I compared channel to channel package to package and Dish came out on top. Perhaps you judge value on a different basis, I don't know, but I can't agree with you about Directv being the better deal. Though I have to say in all honesty, I miss Directv's customer service, equipment, etc. I never knew what I had until I switched to Dish. However, that being said, I don't see myself switching right now, unless Dish does something drastic that I don't like.

No problem! Just trying to make sure things are under control.

I always live by the "everyone's entitled to their own opinion" thoughtbase.
I had DISH, didn't like Charlie using customers as pawns whenever contract negotiations failed. I didn't like the hardware because it just wasn't reliable. I get reliable service and hardware from Directv, and a channel has NEVER gone dark on D* because they couldn't negotiate properly.

Again everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect that.

 

[tonyp56]

Again everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect that.

IMO, I'll agree with that.

 

[tonyp56]

One, they did not become part of it's current Package of HD Programming and two, it is in fact a separate HD package that you will be charged for.

Ok, now what if Dish would have said, "We are adding these 10 channels for $5 a month, and you have to buy a new Dish to be able to watch these channels that we are now forcing you to pay for, or you can pay $5 more a month and not get all of the channels that you pay for!" How would you like that?

So, what are you griping about, that they didn't force you to pay for these additional channels? I'm glad that they didn't force everyone that has the HD Pack to start paying $5 more a month, cause a lot of people would be pissed because they have to go out and buy another dish, or pay for something that they can't watch. Dish Network knew that a lot of people didn't or even couldn't get a Dish at 61.5 and therefore didn't want to force everyone into upgrading to a package that they can't get. Give Dish Network a couple of weeks to work out the different issue's, at least until Charlie Chat, which is the next time that they can talk to their customers about any Upgrade Packages, or even say something like, " We will be moving the Voom channels to another satellite, and we will Upgrade everyone to a DISH1000!" (this could happen you never know, however, I doubt it!) However, in today's society everything has to be done NOW, and no one is willing to wait a little bit and find out all of the details.

 

[kmahaff]

I'll try one more time. We have been waiting for months for more HD programming. The release comes out leading you to believe the 10 channels will be ADDED to the HD Package. But wait! No! That will cost you another $5 a month! Plus another $100 if you don't get the 61.5 satellite. And for what?

==> RUSH HD, Gallery HD, Rave HD, Ultra HD, Equator HD, Monsters HD, Animania HD, Majestic HD, HD News and Guy TV HD <==

Now there is something to get excited about. Had they added ABC, FOX, PBS and NBC HD, Heck, I'd be happy to pay additional money. But not for this crap.

I can gripe because we have been waiting for additional HD channels. Some, like me, have kept the HD PAckage because of this. The release says "Expanding the HD Package". Had they been forthright about charging more I would really have no problem.

Quite frankly, E* is not much cheaper than cable now and you don't have to have dishes, switches, antenna's, buy additional equipment and rewire your house. What started out as a good thing is now becomming not so good.

Harry, I agree with you to a point but when you add new channels you have to expect that their is going to be an additional charge. To be frank, I am glad they did not simply add them to the existing package because it lets us choose whether we want to get the original package or the voom channels. While I liked some of the voom 21 channels, I wasn't all that thrilled with most of them. What I liked was all of the extra national hd channels for movies, universal, etc.. I would rather have those national movie channels and pay extra for that or, like d* does, add all of the national feeds for the major networks.
On a separate note, it is ridiculous that Canadian tv has all of the major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox) hd feeds and WGN-hd and our satellite providers, for whatever reason, can't provide the same thing. I know part of it is bandwith and part of it is legalities but it is still ridiculous. In fact, I would be willing to pay an extra $10 per month to add those major networks, universal and Wgn-hd. All I can say is that I haven't jumped to D* yet because of the mpeg 4 transfer and I am waiting to see how everything pans out in the next 6 - 8 months. I can tell you that if everything switches over to mpeg 4 and I can get all of my local channels (chicago) without being downconverted that I would switch from E* to D*.

 

[Harry]

Ok, now what if Dish would have said, "We are adding these 10 channels for $5 a month, and you have to buy a new Dish to be able to watch these channels that we are now forcing you to pay for, or you can pay $5 more a month and not get all of the channels that you pay for!" How would you like that?

So, what are you griping about, that they didn't force you to pay for these additional channels? I'm glad that they didn't force everyone that has the HD Pack to start paying $5 more a month, cause a lot of people would be pissed because they have to go out and buy another dish, or pay for something that they can't watch. Dish Network knew that a lot of people didn't or even couldn't get a Dish at 61.5 and therefore didn't want to force everyone into upgrading to a package that they can't get. Give Dish Network a couple of weeks to work out the different issue's, at least until Charlie Chat, which is the next time that they can talk to their customers about any Upgrade Packages, or even say something like, " We will be moving the Voom channels to another satellite, and we will Upgrade everyone to a DISH1000!" (this could happen you never know, however, I doubt it!) However, in today's society everything has to be done NOW, and no one is willing to wait a little bit and find out all of the details.

Seems you just don't get it. The only thing Charley forced me to do is drop my HD Package because I think the programming is not worth the money. My perogative and call. I also dropped the Value Pack I had because I don't watch all the reruns on HBOHD. This resulted in cutting my bill in half, making it better than cable, which is why I subscribed to E* in the first place. I will get better HD via OTA.

I just think this was pulled off somewhat underhandedly. Seems there are a great many people here who do not have the 61.5 satellite so they will be out more than the $5. That is really not a problem for me. I just don't think the programming is worth the added expense, which I'm sure will increase even more when the other 16 channels are added. I guess Charley's definition of "compelling" is different from mine.

Now they are/will be mirroring it on 148. How many do not have that satellite? More expense?

To me, adding the 10 channels to the existing HD Package without charging the $5 would be more of an inducement for people to upgrade their equipment. If they choose not to, no problem. Later on, when the additional channels are added, it would be reasonable to up the price on the HD Package, provided Charley let everyone know what his plans are. (Yeah, like that's going to happen with Charley Ego) This just would have been more up front on E*'s behalf. For too long we have been playing Charley Roulette, trying to figure out what he's going to do and how he's going to it with very little, if any, heads up. This is another example. The rumors comeout on Thursday, announcement on Friday and programming starts on Saturday/Sunday. Typical E* SOP.

Several invested significant money in buying the 811, spent a lot of time with bug fixes and getting replacement 811's only to get it socked to them again. Nickel here, dime there, $100 here, $100 bucks there. I think this is why people started leaving cable in the first place.

Satellite HD TV pricing is narrowing the gap on the advantage over having cable in cost of service and equipment. You can't have this unless you have that. Once cable gets on board and starts offering all of the DTV sub channels, the Satellite company's will be at a disadvantage because you know they will not carry all of the locals sub channels, much less their HD. (Although I saw D* will be carrying local's HD in the not too distant future)

While I do applaud Charley for at least making the effort to increase HD, there was poor planning and execution. In the end, it wasn't worth it for me.

 

[JH1949]

TO: Harry

I'm glad that you have a lot of choices, but I don't.

My local cable is in analog and costs more than dish for the same channels. Also, I cannot receive any OTA even with a signal booster.

Satellite was the only way for me to go if I wanted to see locals and some HDTV. I really like Voom news, Voom Rave, Voom Rush, and Discovery HD. That plus History, Sci-Fi, USA, TNT, and CNN is the majority of what I watch. When I had Voom with UHD, it was better watching Battlestar Galactica and Monk on HD than the regular SD versions.

 

[redline65]

I just found out about the new Voom channels (which I can't get since I don't have a dish pointed at 61.5). Anyways, this prompted me to think about the HD package that I've been subscribed to for nearly 16 months. I thought the addition of TNT HD a while back was a step in the right direction for their HD offerings - it reassured me that the HD package would continue to be added to at no additional cost. But now the future expansion of the HD package doesn't look too promising (with the newly available separate Voom content), which makes me re-think the value of paying $10/month for the 5 channels I get. I'm now considering dropping it since I met my 12-month commitment to the HD package (required since I got the Free Dish 811/301/301 deal). Does anyone have any information about the possibility of new additions to the $9.99 HD package?

 

[Harry]

I just found out about the new Voom channels (which I can't get since I don't have a dish pointed at 61.5). Anyways, this prompted me to think about the HD package that I've been subscribed to for nearly 16 months. I thought the addition of TNT HD a while back was a step in the right direction for their HD offerings - it reassured me that the HD package would continue to be added to at no additional cost. But now the future expansion of the HD package doesn't look too promising (with the newly available separate Voom content), which makes me re-think the value of paying $10/month for the 5 channels I get. I'm now considering dropping it since I met my 12-month commitment to the HD package (required since I got the Free Dish 811/301/301 deal). Does anyone have any information about the possibility of new additions to the $9.99 HD package?

I think the handwritting is on the wall from the Voom channels experiance. I am like you, I thought we would see the HD Pack added to, not the addition of another HD Pack! I dropped my HD Pack this morning. If you can Locals OTA, invest in an HD STB.