Help WiFi or Satellite (1 Viewer)

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tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
Live in rural area had a 57 ft tower installed for OTA-HDTV and WiFi and because of dialup speed downloads of 2 to 5 kbs, yes 5 kbs tops. Now the WiFi gets me anywhere from 15 to 45 kbs and were it to stay there on consistent basis it would work. WiFi is very inconsistent, works good early morning but very spotty rest of day. I know of the Satellite lag, that's fine but once I'm locked in does the signal stay on without the drops I get on WiFi. I understand the limited downloads (FAP I think it's called). In reality I download windows updates, some PS3 updates as needed to a USB drive and then manually transfer to PS3. I occasionally download some applications. Don't believe I have downloaded a gb in the last 6 months. I am on a couple dog forums that occasionally have some you tube viewing which will not run with WiFi.

If I were able to get 512 kbs speed downloads and no signal bouncing on and off it would be like getting out of a Model T and into a Porsche.

I am paying 34.95 for the WiFi and 15.00 for dialup as it's needed when WiFi has the signal loss. I know that Hughes has dropped their mthly fee a bit so the money is not a problem as it would be in same ball park.

Any opinions would be helpful, oh I just switched from Dish to DirecTV so I am at least very familiar with TV reception etc and love it.

To top it off I typed up thread and when I went to submit it my WiFi had lost connection and luckily I had copied my post and saved it because this does happen regularly. I am now on dialup.
 
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tobifelinis

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
May 10, 2009
27
0
Tombstone, Az
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Stargazer

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Sep 7, 2003
16,561
339
Western WV
I would definitely try to get that wifi link improved as it should be working a lot better than that even on a bad day.
 

tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
I would definitely try to get that wifi link improved as it should be working a lot better than that even on a bad day.

Alright, I think before I jump into anything I will try the WiFi server and see what happens. Maybe I have a faulty piece of equipment in my setup. One last thing, should have put this in yesterday we are 7 miles from server tower.

On one PC there is Linksys BEFSR41 router on main PC there is a Dlink DES 1105 router. Are there better routers any kind of upgrade equipment to help WiFi.

Thank you..
 
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oldford

SatelliteGuys Pro
Pub Member / Supporter
Feb 6, 2007
430
5
Eastern Maine
Try to get the wifi working. If that fails, check and see if you have a Starband dealer locally. Local dealers are usually better to deal with.

GL, Eric
 

jayn_j

Press On Regardless
Supporting Founder
Sep 29, 2003
10,690
3,295
Sheboygan, WI
7 miles is getting to be enough that you might need to consider something with more gain than the standard antenna. Get someone good out, and ask about using a multi-element yagi or 1M dish instead.
 

tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
7 miles is getting to be enough that you might need to consider something with more gain than the standard antenna. Get someone good out, and ask about using a multi-element yagi or 1M dish instead.

Sorry you've got me confused now because a Yagi is TV antenna, They have something called a radio mounted on tower, or I may be confused about what they call it but it does not look like an antenna.

I did get in touch with server and they did a firmware update so I will sit for a while and see if there is a change.
 
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jayn_j

Press On Regardless
Supporting Founder
Sep 29, 2003
10,690
3,295
Sheboygan, WI
Sorry you've got me confused now because a Yagi is TV antenna, They have something called a radio mounted on tower, or I may be confused about what they call it but it does not look like an antenna.

I did get in touch with server and they did a firmware update so I will sit for a while and see if there is a change.

Actually, a YAGI is a type of antenna with multiple dipoles on a common support. There are yagis out there with 20+ elements that have very high gain and which are tuned to frequencies used in WAN. You often see them in commercial type installations.
See definition here: Wireless Antenna Terminology

The provider's tower needs an antenna that is omni-directional or semi-directional so it can transmit to a number of users spread over a wide angle. You, on the receiving end, want something very directional that will only communicate with that provider's antenna. The high gain helps in 2 ways here.

First, it will pick up more of the signal from the provider's antenna. Second, it will reject all the junk from other transmitters. When you are transmitting, it will direct the entire signal to the provider antenna and not waste signal sent out at random angles.

Your provider is probably sending out 802.11a signal at 5 GHz, so you would need a 5 GHz yagi, or parabolic with 10-20 dB of gain.

Does that make sense?
 

tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
Actually, a YAGI is a type of antenna with multiple dipoles on a common support. There are yagis out there with 20+ elements that have very high gain and which are tuned to frequencies used in WAN. You often see them in commercial type installations.
See definition here: Wireless Antenna Terminology

The provider's tower needs an antenna that is omni-directional or semi-directional so it can transmit to a number of users spread over a wide angle. You, on the receiving end, want something very directional that will only communicate with that provider's antenna. The high gain helps in 2 ways here.

First, it will pick up more of the signal from the provider's antenna. Second, it will reject all the junk from other transmitters. When you are transmitting, it will direct the entire signal to the provider antenna and not waste signal sent out at random angles.

Your provider is probably sending out 802.11a signal at 5 GHz, so you would need a 5 GHz yagi, or parabolic with 10-20 dB of gain.

Does that make sense?
Please understand caliber of man you are dealing with, I don't have a clue as to what your talking about as I just learned how to program my VHS last week. (well not quite that dim)

I did send this info to my server though as if this can be tweaked with a better antenna how great would that be. I also have a Yaesu 800 rotor that can turn anything any direction needed.
 

Stargazer

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Sep 7, 2003
16,561
339
Western WV
The provider may also have sectors which are more powerful than an omni but only provides signal to 90-120 degrees in most cases depending on the type of sector that they are using.

I have transmitted signal 7.5 miles to a customer using a 2.4 ghz radio with a 19 db built in panel and it worked great. It was coming off an omni that we had on the tower. I think we got 2-3 MB there. Sometime you have to get more powerful antennas such as the mesh dishes to get better signal in which would also help reject interference.
 

Jared Twomey

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Mar 7, 2005
2,066
0
Tacoma, WA
your wireless should be working better than that. I work for a wireless ISP, and we have customers up to 50 miles away from our towers.
The one thing you said that would worry me is that you have a rotor and can adjust the antennas... if the equipment the ISP installed is a radio with a built in antenna, it most likely has a pretty small beamwidth. If you have moved it at all, it could really hurt the signal.

When we install equipment, it needs to stay right where it is, if it gets moved it won't work properly.
 

tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
your wireless should be working better than that. I work for a wireless ISP, and we have customers up to 50 miles away from our towers.
The one thing you said that would worry me is that you have a rotor and can adjust the antennas... if the equipment the ISP installed is a radio with a built in antenna, it most likely has a pretty small beamwidth. If you have moved it at all, it could really hurt the signal.

When we install equipment, it needs to stay right where it is, if it gets moved it won't work properly.

No the rotor right now just moves our HD antenna the WiFi Radio is mounted and does not move. Since I really would like to stay WiFi I may add another 10 ft section to go to 67 ft. My tower/antenna guy says he can get a section for 40.00 and between 75.00 to 125.00 labor to do the work. He says he doesn't have a clue as it's one of those "if it doesn't help won't hurt things" You just don't know till it's done.
 

tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
Well after the firmware update we are doing better, I have decided to go with the extend tower another 10 feet. If possible I would prefer to stay a way from a 2 yr contract and the option is still open in the future if needed. I will be calling server sooner as to keep track of future firmware updates myself.

Most here have advised to keep WiFi if possible, Thank you for replies everybody.
 

Stargazer

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Sep 7, 2003
16,561
339
Western WV
It is amazing how much just a little bit more signal helps with your bandwidth. You are probably borderline and every little bit helps.

Satellite has higher ping times than wi-fi. If you have 1 MB service with satellite it will still be slower than 1 MB wifi due to the lag on transmitting the upload to the satellite to que the page.
 

grohgreg

SatelliteGuys Pro
Aug 21, 2008
523
1
Dawson Springs, KY
Satellite has higher ping times than wi-fi. If you have 1 MB service with satellite it will still be slower than 1 MB wifi due to the lag on transmitting the upload to the satellite to que the page.
Apples and oranges. Data rate and the speed at which it travels over wire/fiber/radio frequency (transmission speed) are two completely different things. Another word for data rate is throughput. That will be the speed at which your connection is rated by the provider. 1 mb/s data rate is 1 mb/s data rate regardless of the transmission media. Transmission speed on the other hand, is near the speed of light (SOL). PING packets are data, and travel near the SOL regardless of the media AND regardless of the data rate. A PING over dial up is the same as a PING over WiFi (or cable or DSL or satellite).

The main factor affecting PING differences between WiFi and satellite is distance. We're only talking a few miles between WiFi providers and their subscribers. But GEO satellites are orbiting at 22,300 miles above the equator. The actual signal path is the hypotenuse of that triangle, so consider a satellite PING return path to be ~45,000 miles. If you do the math, that's pretty close to 500ms. That 1/2 second delay is called latency (or lag), and is completely independent of data rate.

Consider a car and a train, both capable of 50 mph. It just takes the train a bit longer than the car to "accelerate" to 50mph. But they both arrive at their destination at 50mph. The train just gets there about 500ms after the car.

//greg//
 
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tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
Well when I started this the speed wasn't a big deal as when WiFi is working speed is adequate for my needs. It was the disconnects/signal loss that I was trying to work on.

Greg, it's a good thing you added the train/car explanation because when I got to the hypotenuse part of your reply I was totally lost and befuddled.:confused:

I'm a dog trainer and an excellent poop-scooper, just don't run into many hypotenuses :D
 
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tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
Well when I started this the speed wasn't a big deal as when WiFi is working speed is adequate for my needs. It was the disconnects/signal loss that I was trying to work on.

An update, the tower is now at 71 ft, finished 10/15 at noon. We have not had one WiFi disconnect since and I have spent going from web page to web page etc etc etc. I have probably bounced around more in the last 2 days than the last 2 weeks just waiting to see how many problems there would still be as I am a pessimist at heart and always expect little. My tower guy said that when he checked WiFi radio it was 4 out of 5 bars but when done with adding sections it went to 5 bars.

Now with the HD-OTA out of Chicago I see no difference but it 's 90 miles and did not really expect anything just hoping.

I am pleasantly surprised, my download speed is still between 30 to 45 kbs but it beats the 2 to 5 kbs dialup gives me. At least my 15 and up disconnects a day has stopped.
 

tommytanker

Well-Known SatelliteGuys Member
Jun 11, 2010
26
0
central IL
Last update and I'm gone from this thread. Yesterday I had a perfect day no problems at all. This was the 5th day with reworked tower and during that time I had 5 disconnects but when hitting retry button on Firefox they immediately fired back up. Previously when hitting retry buttons I normally would have had to switch over to my dialup because there was no reconnecting going on.

In closing I again want to thank those who answered my call for info/help.
 

jimdandyvi

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 19, 2010
496
0
Virgin Islands
First of all what some of the posters are missing is that you have a combination radio/ directional antenna mounted on the outside of your building so your ISP will have to connect an external antenna to your radio to increase the signal gain.

Before going this route I would test my connection by by-passing both my routers. If this works then you know the problem is your internal network.

My internet service is delivered by Wi-Fi and my ISP recommends only certain brands of equipment and nothing using the N band. It is easier to change your router for $50 - $80 than end up tearing your hair out fighting balky equipment.

If it is your your network the problem is probably that either your radio, router 1 or router 2 are assigning internal IP addresses. If this is happening confusion results and you loose your connection to the internet. You won't be able to get back onto the internet until you release and renew all your IP addresses.

Finally to improve my reliability I have my radio and routers all powered through a UPS so the numerous power glitches we have in the USVI don't scramble my service.

Hope this helps. If your problems are network related you may want to hire a network pro to help you program your routers.

Jim
 
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