I need a computer for a special application.

Discussion in 'Computers and Gadgets' started by TheForce, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. harshness

    harshness SatelliteGuys Master

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    13,607
    Likes Received:
    1,379
    Location:
    Salem, OR
    Rendering is something that can happen at its own pace, no? Editing would seem to be the place where your time can be saved and GPUs don't generally help there.
     
  2. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Not necessarily. Rendering occurs during the editing process when you make certain changes to the clip in the timeline, such as image stabilization, time compression and expansion, etc. Changing the clip's frame size and color grading happens in real time with no rendering. Some editing rendering takes quite a long tome and is when I go do something else. I would get a message popping up in the middle of the screen stating "Analyzing steps 1 of 2" That might take 20-30 minutes for a clip that is 10 minutes long. Or a minute for a clip that is 20-30 seconds long. Normally, these rendering steps use the GPU acceleration rather than CPU and you can select that in your preferences to see which works the fastest.

    The final rendering is the longest time and here is where the number of cores or logical processors comes into play. I got one bench marks from a friend who is using a 12 core CPU ( 24 processors) and he claims about 2 times real time for the final edit, that is 25 minutes for a 50 minute program. My 8 processor machine takes about 6 hours for a similar timeline. This would be 4K 3D with multiple layers and graphic inserts. Doesn't sound bad but so often I need to fix a mistake I made and render a second, third, and sometimes 4 times to get it to where I'm satisfied.

    Being able to play a timeline in real time is also CPU intensive but also dependent on the storage speed. I use PCIe storage now, but the new machine will use PCIe integrated to the mother board for the C drive and a card with plugin PCIe storage for the fastest delivery of the frames to the CPU.

    I think the RAM size complement is not as important as the speed. I need to do more research on this part to see what will be required.

    It all has to work in synergy for the editing to deliver, but you knew that. Can't build a 36 processor machine with a just a SSD or slow graphics card.
     
  3. harshness

    harshness SatelliteGuys Master

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    13,607
    Likes Received:
    1,379
    Location:
    Salem, OR
    If three times the processors is returning rendering times around 14.4 times faster (360 minutes versus 25), you're missing something huge in your performance equation. Whether it is the impact of CPU cache or DMA speed, there's a lot more involved.

    Other than the final compression (that I suspicion is happening in the CPU rather than the GPU), I'm not sure what's up.

    There also seems to be considerable discussion about the relative quality of compression between modern CPUs and GPUs that may favor the CPU in terms of shortcuts taken in GPUs.
     
  4. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Agree which is why I made the comment about synergy. It is not just the processor that gets upgraded but all the other things I mentioned as well. Also, I didn't mention that the software must be able to work with the hardware. Some editing programs just do not take advantage of the added CPU's so it will top out in performance before the machine will. There is a great tool I've been using to determine where the limits are in my computer. It's a bottle neck analyzer. So when you are rendering and running the bottle neck analyzer, it will show you what hardware is being accessed and what is topped out while other parts are showing headroom. That way you know where to spend your money.
     
  5. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    I think I may be ready to order the new super fast computer when I get back from my next trip-

    I think I can save by getting the system built and tested by this company. Anyone have any experience with them or have an alternative suggestion to look at?

    Portatech.com -- Barebones w/ Intel Core X (Socket 2066)

    I would be going with the i9-7980X and 64GB Ram with the Asus ROG-STRIX-X299E MB.
    nVidia GeForce GTX1060 Thermaltake case 1000watt powersupply with water cooling and a 500GB M.2 C drive. Their price with warranty and burn in testing is about $4500. That is $1500 lower than my budget.


    Reviews: FWIW:
    Portatech is rated "Excellent" with 9.3 / 10 on Trustpilot
     
  6. Horsepower

    Horsepower SatelliteGuys Pro
    Pub Member / Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Posts:
    520
    Likes Received:
    211
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Check out VELOCITY MICRO. They may be just what you are looking for.
     
  7. Foxbat

    Foxbat Addicted to new HW
    Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Posts:
    11,192
    Likes Received:
    3,188
    Location:
    Michiana
    This is a bad time to buying a GPU. Cryptocurrencies have made it next to impossible to get a graphics card for a reasonable price, and there is a company that produces Mining ASICs which can pay for time in a silicon foundry, taking away production time from memory and CPU chip makers. https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20180130PD208.html
     
  8. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Thanks! I'll check them out.
     
    Horsepower likes this.
  9. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Looks like Velocity Micro is about $1500 more for the same configuration. More like my original price estimate based on me doing the build from parts bought from Amazon. But thanks for the lead.
     
    Horsepower likes this.
  10. Comptech

    Comptech PIT MEMBER

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2006
    Posts:
    2,315
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Location:
    Travelers Rest SC
    The specs are great, but spending that much money, I would go a step beyond and upgrade to a GTX 1080 for a couple hundred more. The more cuda cores the better.
     
  11. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Yes! I plan to be at NAB in a couple weeks to speak with the engineers, hopefully from the software app companies and AMD as well as Nvidia. When I built this current editing system, that's what I did and do not regret the education as it made his system really perform for 3D stereoscopic and 4K UHD rendering. Now, I need to do more with VR and AR. The current system is just barely adequate for 8 4K cameras in 3D O/U mode. But it works, just very slow.
    The 8 camera stitching software allows for CPU or GPU rendering. While GPU should be much faster with state of the art video card like the 1080, mine is the same speed (slow) whether CPU or GPU.

    The big question I want to get answered is whether to roll back on CPU processors to save $1000 and put in two 1080's or one 1080 and the 36 logical CPU processors. From what I can see 64GB Ram should be more than enough but if needed, the MB can support 128GB in the future. Maybe Nvidia will be announcing something faster to replace the 1080. One thing is certain, I can upgrade the ram, the GPU, the storage, but to upgrade the CPU is a new build, including new OS and some software cost too. So best to go with the biggest at the time if I want future proof.

    Future proofing: I clearly expect that VR will soon be working in 12K or 16K video as opposed to 4K today. So what direction should I go with the CPU today so it won't be obsolete in 2-3 years? Being pragmatic- at my age, I don't expect to be producing amateur video when I'm 80. :) So I want this machine build this year to be my final build.
     
  12. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Ended up ordering from Velocity Micro as they came down in price with NAB discounts/deals. Got all I wanted in this build so I should be good for a few years. i9-7980XE GTX1080TI 64GB RAM m.2 storage for win 1064bit OS. ASUS Premium MB and twin liquid coolers for overclocking. I got the 1300watt power supply too. Many of my friends doing overclocking of the 10 core CPU are running into problems with the 750w and 1KW power supplies causing aborted rendering.

    Was also concerned we may be seeing price increases this summer so decided not to wait.
     
  13. navychop

    navychop Member of the Month - July 2014!
    Pub Member / Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Posts:
    44,259
    Likes Received:
    9,434
    Location:
    Northern VA
    From Chinese parts tariffs?
     
  14. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    From what I understand the Nvidia graphics cards might be affected soon by the tariff. They are made in Taiwan. But most of the other parts including Intel CPU might escape it. It could impact the Nvidia cards by as much as $150.

    But while the intel CPU is made in the US the specific Motherboards that support this version are made in China. These are already quite expensive.
     
  15. harshness

    harshness SatelliteGuys Master

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Posts:
    13,607
    Likes Received:
    1,379
    Location:
    Salem, OR
    The big problem with Nvidia graphics cards is getting ahold of one. The prices are silly and availability can be rough since the blockchain era began. The 1050 now sells for what the 1060 used to sell for and the 1080Tis are going for around one large (I've seen an 11GB model at almost $1,500). The Titans are priced on the shady side of two large.

    The trick is finding someone who stocked up before all the buzz over bitcoin hit.
     
  16. Foxbat

    Foxbat Addicted to new HW
    Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Posts:
    11,192
    Likes Received:
    3,188
    Location:
    Michiana
    I wonder where Cybercurrencies fall in the Malthusian Catastrophe panoply? More likely than nuclear war?
     
  17. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    This is more media hype than truth. I won't say fake news because the basic is true. But the average price I have seen for the 1080 Ti 11GB version is anywhere from $900 to $1300 depending on the specific designer build. These are readily in stock and same day shipping. The designer build I am getting is a GeForce Founders edition, not that that matters. What I discovered in my research is that these Nvidia cards have a high track record of problems out of the box as reported by three major computer manufacturers and needing exchange. I just hope my builder does the adequate testing. I am paying for that service.

    I don't know what the definition of "one or two large" is but I was charged $960. Considering I built my former PC with an AMD FirePro 3D Graphics card years ago and that cost me $2500, I see it as more bang for less buck at $960.

    I was more concerned about my decision to go with the Skylake 7980XE CPU as I learned it is limited on 10 bit video using Quick Sync. This gets a bit technical for video but according to the experts I spoke with, the main recommendation was to wait a year for that to become available. But in my case time is running out and the need to do 10 bit editing is a whole level above my current shooting and editing package. The benchmark advantage of CPU vs capable GPU for 10 bit is about 2:1 or twice as fast. There was some speculation that the future CPU capable of full 10 bit encode and decode would run on the X299 MB so an upgrade if desired may be possible. All interesting for those younger video enthusiasts who are moving into RED cameras but that is not me. So, I think I can be comfortable with the decision to build now with 4K and HEVC capability that is considerably faster than my present system. Better to measure the build over what I do nopw than measure it against pie in the sky a year from now. Will I get the benefit of this build over the next year for a few hundred $. I say yes.
     
  18. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Roland- I have followed cyber currencies technology and markets for over 2 years now. I chose not to invest or trade for these reasons- Exchanging $ or any foreign legitimate currency for any of the cybercurrencies is easy to do at market, but selling it back to $, for a gain is not so easy. Better to trade into other cybercurrency. The purpose of cybercurrency is to conduct transactions in private to hide them from the government for whatever reason, usually a reason that is not legal. Your cyberportfolio value is only a ledger value and it has no real value you can buy goods to live on if you need to in an emergency. Try to go to the grocery store and pay the cashier with bitcoin. Heck some cashiers won't accept USD in America in $50 bills. The only time I have seen it easy to get out of Bitcoin is when the market is way down. But, if you need to buy weapons, drugs, on the black market, or pay a ransom then bitcoin may be a way to get a value for your cybercurrency.

    As long as cybercurrency is so volatile and can't be tracked by governments it will remain a fools game, making only a few rich, most will lose big or get stuck holding a worthless wallet full of code.
     
  19. Foxbat

    Foxbat Addicted to new HW
    Supporting Founder Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Posts:
    11,192
    Likes Received:
    3,188
    Location:
    Michiana
    Without going too far off-topic, one of my co-workers shared how his neighbor was getting PCs sent to him from China to plug in and mine cryptocurrencies. The electric rate where we live is lower than where the miners live, apparently, so even with the shipping and covering expenses, they still "make" "money". And the miners' greed for the CPU and GPU power make it harder for people trying to use the hardware for creation or entertainment to find systems at a reasonable price, as you found out.
     
  20. TheForce

    TheForce Topic Starter SatelliteGuys Master
    Supporting Founder

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Posts:
    25,437
    Likes Received:
    5,506
    Location:
    Earth
    Well, I don't build computers every day so I don't know what is a reasonable price range. I do believe I overpaid today for the intel CPU but my intent is not to have to do an upgrade for a long long time. Plus, I'm not into this for bragging rights for a few months. Rather, I begin with what I want to shoot and do a year or two from now and that is 360 VR AR 3D with 4K cameras. From there I just need a machine that can stitch 8 4K cameras and render h265 to 4K 3D in a reasonable time frame.

    The other present day limitation to what I want to do is the display limitations. I currently have a 4K display in one pair of goggles and 2.5K display in the other. The ratio of image resolution is such that the camera technology is a decade ahead of the display technology. While I can shoot and edit 360 4K 3D now, I could easily upgrade to 8K cameras for about $3500. My current 4K cameras is $800. But, given that the display HMD is still limited to 2.5K and 4K there is no way I can fully appreciate my current 4K camera quality with the present day display. The display panel would need to be 12K to 16K 360. That isn't even on the horizon yet. An industrial HMD for 8K is obscenely expensive and doesn't do 3D. I was at NAB and compared several top popular HMD and none of them were better than mine I paid $150 for. However those do have operating systems more compatible with content and ease of use.

    Roland- there was a documentary on TV recently that reviewed the crypto currency mining technology. Because the algorithm continues to become more complex to solve everytime another coin is mined, the only mining operations left that are successful and positive net cash flow, are those with tens of thousands of dedicated crypto currency computers located in the colder parts of the world to lower the cost of cooling plus nearby low cost power. People who fantasize setting up a dozen computers in their basement for for $50000 investment are fools.
     

***

Separate names with a comma.

More...