I would call it theft! Any suggestions?

[bidaw]

I purchased what seemed to be a Pansat 3500SD at the Dayton Hamvention from an individual a few months ago. Pansat box and docs, sealed packing and all. I finally got around to hooking it up a couple of weeks ago and immediately had problems with the remote. Wouldn't work for nothing on that box but would work on my other Pansat receivers. After a frustrating couple of days, I decided to send it in to Pansatusa for warranty repair (w/$40 M.O. as required) for the fix. A couple of days ago, I get a letter back from them along with my original M.O. for $40 saying that they found several anomalies that was wrong with the box...and continued to say that the box that I sent them was a counterfeit and that they had to keep it for 'legal reasons'. I called them immediately to find out what the heck was going on...and they basically told me the same thing they said in the letter. I maintained my calm to explain my position, and they wouldn't budge to either replace or even send back the unit! They did offer to sell me one for $110. Other than to retain an attorney to argue my point that they don't have the right to confiscate my property arbitrarily, what suggestions would this community have for me?

 

[gabshere]

i think they are within their right, now you are left out in the cold. unless you have the name of the individual that sold you the unit. you could either go after him or attempt to haggle with pansat on a better deal since you was in the blind on this deal. it also raises into perspective on dealing with an authorized dealer. I still think pansat will work a better deal with you. but thats just me thinking and i haven't dealt with them before..... actually 110 on a 3500sd is below the list. but i do hate it that this kinda stuff can happen. so i will go back and underline ....... and mention if your getting a great deal ..... consider something wrong with the stb ..... and proceed with caution.

 

[bidaw]

I don't understand how you would come to the conclusion that they are within their right to keep the unit. I would think that they could request the unit for legal action against whomever produced or sold the unit via court order, but to just outright take it? Come on...that's a stretch...especially since I sent the item to them in good faith based upon their warranty/terms of service agreement within their literature and website.

 

[gabshere]

well i'm not the legal eagle but this is from their site

"

When Panarex’s application software (05/26/2006 version) has been or is downloaded onto a counterfeit receiver, a message will appear on the television screen that states “Warning. This product may be a cloned or defective. Please call your supplier a.s.a.p. before damage occurs.” We have developed a safety mechanism to protect our customers as well as proprietary information such as our trademark and technology. If you see this warning, please contact the seller you bought the receiver from and immediately return the product. The best way to purchase Pansat® products is through sellers recommended by Panarex’s sales team. We strongly urge you not to purchase Pansat® products through any internet seller who does not list their full company information (i.e. address, telephone number). Our sales team can give you information on the nearest reliable sellers in your area. Feel free to contact us during business hours. Your satisfaction with authentic Pansat® products is our goal.

Cheap reproductions will damage easily due to inferior technology and are not covered under our warranty.

Note: If you are a customer who submits information on a seller of counterfeit Pansat® merchandise (i.e. company name, street address, telephone number, e-mail address, the seller’s name, an invoice showing purchase or other information leading to the arrest of the counterfeiter), Panarex will review your claim and replace the imitation merchandise with authentic Pansat® product(s). "

so it sounds like you do have grounds to get another unit, you just have to find a common ground to get it. and i will stand corrected .... after reading their return policy........ it only talks about software it doesn't mention clones (it does in the faq) ..... so you should be entitled to the return of your unit or a replacement. i would think

I would think that they could request the unit for legal action against whomever produced or sold the unit via court order

i would suspect your right here , they think they have the legal right to but since its not mentioned in their return policy. i would suspect they don't have a right to keep it only to ask to keep it ( and hence conpensate you for your loss while they keep the unit)

 

[charper1]

Well in my company when counterfeit items rear their head, we also take action to confiscate. I think these are similar nature as receiving stolen goods; if you are not the thief, but if you are in possession of stolen property you can have it taken away and you lose the property and any money you may have paid for it without compensation. Basically an oh well... Shop ONLY at authorized dealers.

 

[lumpkin666]

I'm all for them identifying counterfeits and taking action against the counterfeiters, but they cannot just confiscate stuff. They need a court order to do that. And any business worth a darn would bend over backwards to work with someone who got caught up innocently in the deception.

 

[duchen]

You might help them out identifying who sent you bought it from. In the long run, that might be worth a replacement receiver.

As for your legal rights, you are the owner of hardware which contains softwear which steals their IP. You gave them possession of it. They have the right to take it off the market. If there is a dispute, ultimately a court would have to decide ownership. But, I cannot see a court requiring them to give you back something which steals from them and the fees would be far greater than the amount in dispute.

 

[HokieEngineer]

You might help them out identifying who sent you bought it from. In the long run, that might be worth a replacement receiver.

As for your legal rights, you are the owner of hardware which contains softwear which steals their IP. You gave them possession of it. They have the right to take it off the market. If there is a dispute, ultimately a court would have to decide ownership. But, I cannot see a court requiring them to give you back something which steals from them and the fees would be far greater than the amount in dispute.

This would imply that you trust their judgement that the hardware is indeed a clone. What if you sent a legit box back and they claim its a clone, what do you do then? It was shipped to them not as a transfer of goods but under the impression they would provide service.

 

[Claude Greiner]

They have no right to confiscate your property!

For god sakes the thing doesn't even work! What are you going to do, fix it and watch TV? Thats why you sent it to them to begin with!

I have had several customers send me DISH Network units in for repair that the customer tried to hack and botched up the receiver and tried to get me to replace under warranty.

In these situations, I box the receiver back up and either call and email the customer....

A) They can pay to me to repack the receiver and ship it back to them.

B) I can dispose of the receiver

C) If the customer still wants to argue with me, we then send it to DISH Network under a return authorization created in the customers name (Usually at this point they agree to pay to send it back)

 

[jayelem]

I really feel for you , especially being left with nothing to show for your investment.

My earliest threads ever posted discussed being duped with a clone of a Pansat 2700 , I bought the unit on ebay and I chose a local guy just so I could save on the $20 shipping.

After looking into it and calling Pansat , I was told that if I sent it in and it was a counterfeit that they would keep it , I was also told what to look for on a legit unit , I was mad and I went after the seller , he gave me no problems and claimed he wasn't aware of it being a clone.

I did find out shortly after that several customers who purchased a STB had left negative feedback because the cloned receiver stopped working , the seller claimed that he didn't condone illegal 3rd party software and that it was the reason for breaking down .

I got lucky , that the guy wanted me out of his hair and gave me back my money.

It's a shame that people sell counterfeit units as the real thing and sometimes the price difference is no more than $20 .

The best thing to come out of this for me was that I bought a Coolsat 5000 and absolutely loved it more than the 2700 .

 

[Tron]

I agree, what you are describing amounts to theft. One recourse would be to contact law enforcement authorities local to where you sent the unit (by zip code) and notify them of the incident. Clone or not, they do not have the right to keep your property without paying for it.

 

[duchen]

Why would Pansat refuse to fix a legitimate unit?

As for trusting their judgment that the receiver is a clone, you can bring a legal action; hire an expert; and have the receiver examined. Then, if you win, maybe you can win the value of a receiver which doesn't work plus some punitive or multiplier.

My best guess is that Pansat would stand behind a legitimate product. Otherwise, word would get out and people would buy from their competitors.

Sometimwes a great deal is a rip off; its an unfortunate risk of buying on a secondary market from an invisible seller.

If you really want legal advice, consult an IP lawyer.

 

[bidaw]

I agree, what you are describing amounts to theft. One recourse would be to contact law enforcement authorities local to where you sent the unit (by zip code) and notify them of the incident. Clone or not, they do not have the right to keep your property without paying for it.

This is the type of suggestion that I was looking for! Thanks Tron. I will look into this approach!

 

[colbec]

IANAL, but it is likely there is some provision in copyright law that makes the seizure okay. On the one hand the STB is just a collection of transistors, resistors and capacitors that functions as an oscillating unit. On the other hand there has been a deliberate attempt somewhere along the line to pass it off as a copyrighted X unit. Customs officers are continually seizing counterfeit shoes, handbags etc while in transit in the mail and they have a legal right to seize and destroy.

Assuming the vendor had title to the box just as a box, he may not have had title to it as an X receiver, so even though he took the money for it he could not pass title to the purchaser as a functioning X receiver. You could then argue (very politely) that you want it back as a box of chips, and it would be up to X to change the box so that it could not be mistaken for one of theirs ever again and ship it back to you. This at your expense. In the same way the handbag purchaser might want the leather back to repair something else.

It's buyer beware - you have to be certain that the vendor is actually authorized to transfer his title to you in exchange for your money. Your recourse is to publish (or threaten to) the information that the vendor is not acting responsibly. This is neither slander nor libel, it is the truth.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[iammike]

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth too. It would seem to me that your property could be seized in this case, but only if it was done by a government entity. While Pansat may be quite right that the unit is a clone and infringes on their copyright, I'd think they'd have to prove that in a court of law. As part of the legal proceedings, they could request that the government seize your property but I don't think they could do it on their own. Sounds like theft to me, and I'm with Tron, I think I'd contact the local law enforcement.

Now that I've given you my legal opinion I should state that I have no legal training and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Good luck,
Mike

 

[colbec]

Interesting point. However the difference in this case is that the property is being seized by the copyright owner. This may give him special rights. In the case of a publisher in Canada, if the publisher comes across copies of his book printed illegally he can seize the books and the equipment used to produce them.

You could also say that if government authorities (or other authorized agent) that do the seizing only do so on behalf of the copyright owner and in his place.

I've been watching too much Perry Mason.

 

[iammike]

Interesting point. However the difference in this case is that the property is being seized by the copyright owner. This may give him special rights. In the case of a publisher in Canada, if the publisher comes across copies of his book printed illegally he can seize the books and the equipment used to produce them.

You could also say that if government authorities (or other authorized agent) that do the seizing only do so on behalf of the copyright owner and in his place.

I've been watching too much Perry Mason.

I hear what your saying, it's an interesting analogy. Not sure how U.S. law works in this regard. The other thing that might give Pansat a little more authority is that the OP sent the receiver to them. They didn't remove it from his premises.

Still though, if he files a complaint with the police he might get Pansat to send his receiver back just so they can get rid of him. That's all he's really trying to accomplish anyway.

 

[Inno]

But what good is the receiver to him anyway? It doesn't work properly right?
I would expect Pansat to want to keep the receiver only if they were trying to prosecute the individuals responsible for it's manufacture and disribution. In such a case I'd also expect for them to have to get permission from it's rightful owner.

They have no obligation to you as a customer to offer you any sort of deal on a new legit unit. You thought you were buying a Pansat, ended up it was a clone, you in no way provided any monetary compensation to the Pansat company in doing so. Therefore you are not a Pansat customer................now in the interest of good customer relations, I'd expect that they would want to handle the situation smoothly so as you would consider dealing with them in the future. If they are not willing to co-operate that's pretty short sighted on their part.
Perhaps if you could provide them with information about the seller of the unit they may be more willing to help you out.

 

[iammike]

Perhaps if you could provide them with information about the seller of the unit they may be more willing to help you out.

I think Gabshare posted info about Pansat's policy in this regard earlier in the thread. Looks like they might give him a new legit unit if he can provide them with info leading to the seller's arrest.

 

[Corrado]

I just purchased a Pansat 2700a in July. Issues like this make me regret it. Mine was from a known dealer I have used for years.

Makes a thought in the back of my head about what if I had a problem and somehow it was a clone. I'm sure it isn't, but sounds like aggravation I don't need.