Illegal? Has something changed?

[bigcat]

I have a BEV subscription and was wondering if something has changed in terms of whether this is legal or not. Reason I ask is because we were talking about BEV at the HD Columbus.net forum and the "admins" there closed the thread claiming:

posted by Scott:
It is illegal to obtain a satellite signal originating from a Canadian provider into the United States. Does it happen? Sure it does; however, rule 2 of this forum states "No discussion of any illegal activity" and since it's difficult to even speculate on the subject without crossing into the legal issue, I'm closing the tread.

posted by nakedeye:
just to clear it up, subbing to canadian tv is illegal here in the states. there fore any things here stated are simply in theory correct?

Do these fellows simply have the wrong info, or am I missing something?

BTW, the talk was simply about BEV subscriptions, nothing illegal AFAIK.
http://www.hdcolumbus.net/vb-hdtv/showthread.php?t=98

 

[Mr Tony]

it is grey market. Here is a snippet of something I got from www.global-cm.net
Mike Kohl sells StarChocie, but the rules apply for ExpressVu too

Star Choice is a company authorized to provide satellite television within Canada. While licensed to provide service only within Canada, the reach of their satellite signals is actually throughout much of North America. Those in the United States and other areas outside of Canada must provide a Canadian address in order to acquire service. This can be done with the cooperation of helpful friends or relatives within Canada, while those without such connections may need to consider the services of Canadian companies that specialize in providing mail and address services. Within this group exist companies known as programming brokers, which provide a point of contact and the required Canadian address that enables a subscription to be started with Star Choice. They typically charge a yearly fee for their services, and arrange a monthly billing for actual programming costs.

I have SC and live in MN with no issues. I go through a broker

 

[bigcat]

Thanks Ice. That's what I do too.

it is grey market. Here is a snippet of something I got from www.global-cm.net
Mike Kohl sells StarChocie, but the rules apply for ExpressVu too



I have SC and live in MN with no issues. I go through a broker

 

[Mr Tony]

you are more than welcome to post questions and such here

Another good site is www.canadian-tv.com/forums
Over there "grey market" to them is Dish/Direct (and there are a few southern subs there)

 

[Derwin0]

Another good site is www.canadian-tv.com/forums
Over there "grey market" to them is Dish/Direct (and there are a few southern subs there)

be aware thought, that they do not allow open discussion of how to get Dish and/or Directv there (as there is actually a Canadian law forbidding it). You can talk about the programming and having it, but not how to get it. Which of course is irrelevent if you're down here

Another way to get Canadian satellite, is if you have an address up north you can use. Must be a legit address (no making up addresses like people do with Dish/Direct for different locals), as they send mailing to those addresses and will turn off the account if the mail is returned.
Ways to get an address are to have a friend or relative up there. My wife has a house up there (she was born and raised in Canada), so we use that.
If you're close enough to the border, can always get a post office box.

If you have an address, then you'll need a phone number. It's simple if you have vonage, you can get a virtual canadian number.

 

[rukus611]

Iceberg A reputable broker does not arrange monthly billing like (hack) freeway. The dealer I work with sets up the account with choice and uses YOUR credit card. Starchoice bills your card directly. NO markup. They do not ask where your bank is.

 

[daves1]

First point: there is a difference between selling the service and using the service. Cnadian rules say that neither Starchoice or Bell Expressvu can sell to US residents.

Second Point: Starchoice allows its services to be used in us, Bell does not. This is a business decision of each company not a law.
Starchoice, for example will let you use its services in the usa if you have a second/ winter home, or an rv, bev will not. *c toll free numbers work in the us, bev does not have any.
with my *c account, i use a windsor address, a windsor tel no and a us cell phone for a secondary number, and have the bill emailed to me,
that way nothing comes from *c to that address.
*c also lets you order ppv movies if you are at any number other than your "home number" *c is much more "friendly" to us subs than bev, who will cut you off if they get a whiff that you are in the usa.

 

[Mr Tony]

Iceberg A reputable broker does not arrange monthly billing like (hack) freeway. The dealer I work with sets up the account with choice and uses YOUR credit card. Starchoice bills your card directly. NO markup. They do not ask where your bank is.

correct. That is how I am set up too
(auto CC pay from SC)

 

[Mr Tony]

First point: there is a difference between selling the service and using the service. Cnadian rules say that neither Starchoice or Bell Expressvu can sell to US residents.

huh?
Then how come there are retailers that sell to the US. How come I was able to get BOTH an ExpressVu system and a SC system from a Canadian retailer. Heck, I can walk into a retailer in say Thunder Bay, buy a receievr and come back to MN with no issues.

 

[mre]

Iceberg, I don't think it's an issue of selling the equipment to a U.S. resident. Expressvu or Starchoice is not supposed to knowingly allow a U.S. resident to subscribe to the service. In the last year or two, things have changed when buying equipment. When you purchase Expressvu equipment they will not allow you to purchase the equipment without providing an address. Obviously, they will not allow a U.S. address to be entered into the system.

The same goes for Canadian residents. Possession of Dish Network or DTV equipment is not illegal. Subscribing to the service is illegal.

 

[nmstough]

Iceberg, I don't think it's an issue of selling the equipment to a U.S. resident. Expressvu or Starchoice is not supposed to knowingly allow a U.S. resident to subscribe to the service. In the last year or two, things have changed when buying equipment. When you purchase Expressvu equipment they will not allow you to purchase the equipment without providing an address. Obviously, they will not allow a U.S. address to be entered into the system.

The same goes for Canadian residents. Possession of Dish Network or DTV equipment is not illegal. Subscribing to the service is illegal.

On several occasions, I bought a DirecTV receiver off Ebay and had it shipped directly to Canada. It went through customs without problems except for them charging ridiculous sales taxes based on a value of hundreds of dollars. Later I got these refunded.

But what exactly is the Canadian law regarding subscribing to DirecTV? Does it say that a person who resides in Canada is breaking the law by subscribing to DirecTV, or does it say that DirecTV would be breaking the law by knowingly selling subscriptions to a Canadian resident? There is a difference between the two.

But suppose that both activities above are illegal. It still does not necessarily imply that someone in Canada cannot legally subscribe to DirecTV.

If someone living in Canada subscribes to DirecTV through a US address, then obviously DirecTV would not knowingly be selling to a Canadian resident so they couldnt be engaging in illegal activity. And if the Canadian utilizes a US address for the purposes of receiving services, then they are not receiving services from a Canadian address, so again that is not illegal.

Therefore I conclude that it is legal to subscribe to DirecTV in Canada using a US address for the subscription.

 

[Bunkhouse]

In Canada it is illegal to subscribe to a satellite provider not authorized to broadcast in that country and vice versa with the US.

If someone living in Canada subscribes to DirecTV through a US address, then obviously DirecTV would not knowingly be selling to a Canadian resident so they couldnt be engaging in illegal activity. And if the Canadian utilizes a US address for the purposes of receiving services, then they are not receiving services from a Canadian address, so again that is not illegal.

Take another look at it, if you buy marijuana in a country where it is legal and use it in a country where it is illegal does the country of origin matter? You paid for it legally. You possess a valid address in the country that it was purchased. Unfortunatly the laws in country where it is being used overrule.

 

[nmstough]

In Canada it is illegal to subscribe to a satellite provider not authorized to broadcast in that country and vice versa with the US.


Take another look at it, if you buy marijuana in a country where it is legal and use it in a country where it is illegal does the country of origin matter? You paid for it legally. You possess a valid address in the country that it was purchased. Unfortunatly the laws in country where it is being used overrule.

Your analogy does not make sense. A drug is a physical product that would have to be imported. A satellite signal is not a physical product that can be carried or possessed.

I would challenge anyone to provide the full text of the purported Canadian law that would prohibit one from receiving satellite signals from a US company. It cannot be against the law to subscribe to a US satellite company, just because you're in Canada. Otherwise the customs people would have to do a background check on all arriving passengers to see whether they held a US satellite subscription!

 

[Mr Tony]

Everything I have read states that it is illegal to have DirecTv/Dish in Canada.
This is why Dish/Direct is tightening up their coverage recently

SC & EVu can not sell to address outside of Canada, but there is no law that says you can't subscribe to it here in the US (you just need a Canadian address)

Remember....Bell is in the back pocket of the CRTC

 

[Derwin0]

I would challenge anyone to provide the full text of the purported Canadian law that would prohibit one from receiving satellite signals from a US company. It cannot be against the law to subscribe to a US satellite company, just because you're in Canada. Otherwise the customs people would have to do a background check on all arriving passengers to see whether they held a US satellite subscription!

Your proof is in the following link:
http://www.ic.gc.ca/cmb/Welcomeic.nsf/261ce500dfcd7259852564820068dc6d/85256a220056c2a485256ba70050f239!OpenDocument
The link provides the article showing the Canadian Supreme Court upholding Section 9(1)(c) of the Radiocommunications Act which states:

"No person shall...decode an encrypted subscription programming signal or encrypted network feed otherwise than under and in accordance with an authorization from the lawful distributor of the signal or feed"

.

Remember, Canada is a different country with different laws and rights that we have in the U.S.

 

[nmstough]

Your proof is in the following link:
http://www.ic.gc.ca/cmb/Welcomeic.nsf/261ce500dfcd7259852564820068dc6d/85256a220056c2a485256ba70050f239!OpenDocument
The link provides the article showing the Canadian Supreme Court upholding Section 9(1)(c) of the Radiocommunications Act which states: .

Remember, Canada is a different country with different laws and rights that we have in the U.S.

Thats what I thought. As long as one is not illegally receiving services without paying for a subscription it is not against the law to receive US satellite signals in Canada.

 

[Mr Tony]

no it isn't. It is still illegal...from Derwins document

The “grey market” consists of paying customers who use false permanent United States addresses, usually a post office box, to subscribe to United States DTH services that are not licensed by the CRTC. Usually, a Canadian grey market dealer will provide the necessary equipment to receive and decode United States programming, and will make the payment on behalf of its customers through the United States post office box. United States DTH services have stated that they will not knowingly provide service to anyone in Canada because they are not allowed to broadcast in Canada and do not hold the programming distribution rights for Canada.

whether you go through a broker or use an address, it is still illegal.

 

[nmstough]

no it isn't. It is still illegal...from Derwins document



whether you go through a broker or use an address, it is still illegal.

I looked at the document and I do not see where the supreme court ruling specifically addressed what is called "gray market". If it were illegal it wouldnt be "gray".

In any event, consider the wording *false permanent address*. If someone who is in Canada has a legitimate US permanent address, that is not a false address and therefore he would not be engaging in illegal decoding of satellite services.

Once again I conclude that the blanket statement that it is illegal to receive US satellite signals in Canada is false.

 

[Mr Tony]

I'm done arguing because obviously you have Dish or Direct and are in Canada so you are going to say its not illegal.

 

[dmeader]

Quite outside the fact that Canadians cannot legally subscribe to US DTH services, they already get the benefit of US programming. BEV and *C include US east and west coast networks from major US markets in their basic packages, and the Canadian networks carry all the major US shows. Folks in Canada get the west coast and major-market feeds that I CANNOT get here, and I LIVE here! So, I'm not going to feel too sorry for someone in Toronto that can't subscribe to Dishnetwork.