In line amplifier

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icepik

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Good morning, I'm trying to make a rather long coaxial run, approximately 700'. According to the error code I'm getting, I have a weak signal. I know somebody has to make an inline signal booster or amplifier. Could I possibly get some insight on what I might actually need and some info on how to apply it. I'm aware some more information on my end may be required.... feel free to ask for any additional information that may help. Thanks
 
JohnL

JohnL

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An Amplifier won't work. Your problem is the voltage supplied to the LNBF on the Dish is too weak to power it. A possible solution would be a much bigger diameter cable, even so it might not be possible to get a 700 foot run to work.
 
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icepik

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Ok.....I'm open to suggestions. Obviously I don't know a whole lot on the subject but here is my dilemma. My house sits on the ridge of a hollow in an extremely rural area, which is where my dish is located. I've built a " man cave " if you will, at the bottom of the hollow next to the creek that runs across the property. This dwelling is completely surrounded by tall trees and sits about 700 ft from my house. Installing another dish closer to the house at the bottom of the hill wont receive a signal. So is there going to be any way for me to put satellite tv in my room on the creek at the bottom of the hollow?
 
RandallA

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That's a very long run and may not be possible. The problem is that satellite signals use high frequencies (3000 MHz), the higher the frequency the higher the loss per feet.You lose approx. 10 dB per 100 ft. for RG6 cable. The signal at the dish starts at -30 dBm and you need a minimum of -60 dBm at the receiver. If you do the math, the max you could probably do is 250 ft. You would then need an amplifier. Sonora has amplifiers designed for satellite signal but I think it's best to contact a professional for this.

Here is a document with some satellite signal basics at Sonora Design:

https://www.sonoradesign.com/pdfs/DBS_CH0.pdf

Hope that helps you.
 
raoul5788

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You might be able to use fiber to do it, don't know about the costs.
 
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slice1900

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I don't think it is quite as bad as people are suggesting here. First, you don't need to worry about losses at 3000 MHz because a Directv SWM system won't exceed 2100 MHz - and that is only if you have 21 tuners worth of equipment.

With such a long run you'll need RG11 cable, and it must have a solid copper center conductor. RG11 is more expensive but has a little less loss - about 45 db @ 2000 MHz over 700 feet. The DC voltage loss over 700 feet of 14 AWG solid copper center conductor will not be any problem (like 3 volts) so you don't even need to worry about that. Your problem is amplifying the signal enough to compensate for a 40-45 db loss.

Since it sounds like you haven't run the cable yet, what you want to do is find a spot about halfway between the 700 feet from dish to house (doesn't have to be exactly halfway, just approximately) where you can install a small waterproof enclosure. Above or below ground doesn't matter so long as you can guarantee it will be waterproof. Install a Sonora SWM amplifier model LA281R in that enclosure and seal where the cable enters/exits. Then inside your house install a Sonora model LA141Rx. Between the two amps you will basically offset the cable losses of 700' of RG11.

You will want to power this with a separate PI rather than depending on the PI that's built into newer Directv gear like the HR54 and HS17 which is only designed to power a nearby dish and nothing else. Get a PI29 and plug it into the DC input of the LA141Rx, it will provide power to the LA141Rx, the LA281R halfway down the line, and the LNB on the dish 700' feet away. I'd leave the red port terminated and unused just to avoid any possibility of trying to power things from two places at once, which might cause problems.

Here are the links to the Sonora site, you can buy directly from them or elsewhere, but it will probably end up cheaper to buy from Sonora because the ones you buy from other sites like Solid Signal will probably include 12 or 24 volt power supplies you won't need (you could use the 24 volt power supply to power everything instead of a PI29 since the voltage drop on RG11 is pretty small, but probably better to have the additional headroom 29 volts offers "just in case")

Looks like it would be about $200 for a 1000' spool of flooded/burial grade RG11 with solid copper center conductor, and another $150 or so for the amplifiers.

LA281R: LA281R
LA141Rx: LA141Rx
 
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icepik

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I don't think it is quite as bad as people are suggesting here. First, you don't need to worry about losses at 3000 MHz because a Directv SWM system won't exceed 2100 MHz - and that is only if you have 21 tuners worth of equipment.

With such a long run you'll need RG11 cable, and it must have a solid copper center conductor. RG11 is more expensive but has a little less loss - about 45 db @ 2000 MHz over 700 feet. The DC voltage loss over 700 feet of 14 AWG solid copper center conductor will not be any problem (like 3 volts) so you don't even need to worry about that. Your problem is amplifying the signal enough to compensate for a 40-45 db loss.

Since it sounds like you haven't run the cable yet, what you want to do is find a spot about halfway between the 700 feet from dish to house (doesn't have to be exactly halfway, just approximately) where you can install a small waterproof enclosure. Above or below ground doesn't matter so long as you can guarantee it will be waterproof. Install a Sonora SWM amplifier model LA281R in that enclosure and seal where the cable enters/exits. Then inside your house install a Sonora model LA141Rx. Between the two amps you will basically offset the cable losses of 700' of RG11.

You will want to power this with a separate PI rather than depending on the PI that's built into newer Directv gear like the HR54 and HS17 which is only designed to power a nearby dish and nothing else. Get a PI29 and plug it into the DC input of the LA141Rx, it will provide power to the LA141Rx, the LA281R halfway down the line, and the LNB on the dish 700' feet away. I'd leave the red port terminated and unused just to avoid any possibility of trying to power things from two places at once, which might cause problems.

Here are the links to the Sonora site, you can buy directly from them or elsewhere, but it will probably end up cheaper to buy from Sonora because the ones you buy from other sites like Solid Signal will probably include 12 or 24 volt power supplies you won't need (you could use the 24 volt power supply to power everything instead of a PI29 since the voltage drop on RG11 is pretty small, but probably better to have the additional headroom 29 volts offers "just in case")

Looks like it would be about $200 for a 1000' spool of flooded/burial grade RG11 with solid copper center conductor, and another $150 or so for the amplifiers.

LA281R: LA281R
LA141Rx: LA141Rx
Thank you for the info. I have a few questions if you don't mind. As I stated before, this isn't my forte...obviously, but I'll try to ask intelligently. The dish that will be supplying the signal to the lower room is currently supplying signal to 4 receivers in the main house at the top of the hill. Can I come off of a splitter that's mounted on the main house with the RG11? Also, you mentioned powering something called a PI. I'm not sure what that is, where it goes and how do I supply power to it?
 
Claude Greiner

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#1 get a long extension cord and put a small tv and a receiver and Tv next to the dish. Hook up the power inserter and see if everything works.

If your getting a weak signal message something is wrong with the dish or LNB.

Do this first do your not pulling your hair out troubleshooting a cable issue when it’s a dish issue.

#2 RG6 will probably work, and no I don’t recommend using it.

#3 Go to RG11 preferably solid copper direct burial. However any any RG11 will work in this case.

#4 any remaining issue is voltage drop from the house to the dish. Try upgrading to a 29 volt one, or see if it’s possible to move the power inserter closer to the dish.

#5 amplification May be necessary, but I’ll get into that if the above 4 options do not work.

I got a receiver at a hospital running on almost 600 feet of RG6 with 2 splices. It can work

Keep in mind I do this for a living and do hotels with hundreds of receivers.

The LA141 and any other amp is great, but it requires POWER. how can you get power from a dish 700 feet away?

Unless there was a shed or garage with AC power.

In this case, use RG11 and get the best cable.

Even though it makes virtually no difference, try not to splice anything.
 
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slice1900

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Thank you for the info. I have a few questions if you don't mind. As I stated before, this isn't my forte...obviously, but I'll try to ask intelligently. The dish that will be supplying the signal to the lower room is currently supplying signal to 4 receivers in the main house at the top of the hill. Can I come off of a splitter that's mounted on the main house with the RG11? Also, you mentioned powering something called a PI. I'm not sure what that is, where it goes and how do I supply power to it?

I guess I didn't read your post as carefully as I should, as it sounds like you've already got the 700' of coax run? First of all, can you share with us the exact error code you're getting that leads you to believe you have "weak signal"? I wasn't aware there was a code for that, so if you are getting a code that means weak signal instead of no signal that's encouraging as it means at least something is reaching your receiver and probably the amplifier in the middle isn't necessary. You could instead just add one at your house, and while your system would be out of spec it sounds like you just want to get it working rather than making it perfect. The LA281R I linked above would be fine for this, but again only if you can confirm you really are getting some signal. If you are getting no signal at all, that could mean that the signal is so low by the time it reaches your house that it is unrecoverable and an amplifier in the middle will be needed, or it could mean the 700' of coax you have isn't a copper center conductor but copper coated steel which has more resistance to electricity and sufficient voltage isn't reaching the dish.

The PI29 I referred to is a power inserter - a device used to power the electronics in the dish. It is built into the HR54 so if you have one of those you may not have a power inserter. If you don't have an HR54, you will have a small gray box somewhere that plugs into the wall and to your coax that sends power to the dish. If it is a "PI21" you will want to replace it with a PI29 to insure sufficient voltage reaches the dish over such a long run. You can buy them on eBay, Amazon, etc. just search for "directv pi29".
 
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slice1900

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#1 get a long extension cord and put a small tv and a receiver and Tv next to the dish. Hook up the power inserter and see if everything works.

The LA141 and any other amp is great, but it requires POWER. how can you get power from a dish 700 feet away?

A "long extension cord"? Who has a 700' foot long extension cord laying around? :confused: If you have a UPS (backup battery) you can use that, just charge it up then carry it out to the dish to plug in the PI, receiver and little TV (or PC monitor with an HDMI input since many people don't have a "little" TV anymore) If you don't a small UPS is a lot cheaper than 700' of extension cord... But I agree making sure the dish actually works / is aimed correctly should be the first step and he shouldn't assume anything there.

The Sonora amps are line powered by the same DC voltage from the PI that powers the LNB. They draw a couple watts for themselves at the input and the DC continues on down the line towards the LNB, so they can be located anywhere along the run or even at the dish (so long as you know you won't overamplify the signal)
 
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icepik

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IMG 20180310 105636410 IMG 20180310 105658957 IMG 20180310 105709386 IMG 20180310 105756715 IMG 20180310 111459246 IMG 20180310 130703136 Ok.... I really appreciate everyone's help but I have absolutely no idea what all these numbers mean that you guys are talking about. So, I will try to show what I have and see if you guys can help. Picture#1 shows the only info available to me about the dish that's in service. Picture#2 is the dish itself, obviously showing the arm configuration. Picture#3 shows the single wire coming off the dish feeding the main house. Picture#4 shows the splitter that the wire from the dish Is landed on. That splitter is currently feeding 3 receivers in the main house and feeding the other splitter in the photo. One outlet on the second splitter is already feeding the receiver in the garage about 200' away with no issue. The second outlet on the second splitter is the one I'm trying to use for the new addition. It's roughly 625' to the new addition and there is one splice between the splitter in picture#4 and splitter in picture#5. Picture#6 shows the error code and message I get after I put the pin # in that you have to request in order to add receivers. All runs are using RG6 wire with Ftype compression connections. If you can't see the code in the last picture..... it's 47-137. It's saying I have a weak signal basically.
 
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icepik

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I'm sorry, but I don't have any idea what HR54, PI's and PI29 and things of that nature are.
 
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slice1900

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So you don't need to make a 700' run from the dish, you need to make a 700' run from the house to a single receiver in your man cave?

The error 47-137 is saying you have a weak NETWORK connection - i.e. the networking between Directv receivers. Judging from the picture you are trying to put a C61 client in that location. That is probably never going to work, it needs bidirectional communication over the coax (meaning no amplifier can be used) and is more sensitive to distance than extending satellite that far (and running it off that second splitter that's not designed for Directv usage is only making things worse)

However, since the C61 only needs network to operate there may be another, easier way to go. I'm guessing the man cave isn't connected to your home network now or you would have mentioned it. You can run networking over your 700' coax, just not the type of networking Directv uses.

Buy 2 of the coaxial network adapters, the 2 pack of DECAs, and the 8 port SWM splitter linked below. The setup you have now with a second splitter hanging off your 4 port SWM splitter is not ideal, especially when you're trying to do something 'non standard' like a 700' long run. Considering how little the proper 8 port splitter costs you might as well get everything set up correctly to make troubleshooting easier. So step 1 is to replace your 4 port SWM splitter with the 8 port.

Step 2, extend the 'house' end of that 700' coax inside, using a coupler or whatever. Run another coax inside that's connected to the 8 port splitter outside (so I think you should have five things plugged in that 8 port splitter, the 3 receivers in your house that currently are connected to the 4 port splitter, the 1 receiver in your garage connected to that 'other' splitter, and the 1 new coax you just ran.

Step 3, connect the coaxial ethernet adapters to either end of that 700' coax from inside your man cave to inside your house, then using ethernet cables connect them to the DECAs. The DECA in your house then connects to the new coax you just ran from your 8 port splitter to the inside, and the DECA in the man cave connects to the C61 in your man cave.

http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Mid-Band-Transmission-Distances-TPA-311/dp/B00684E0UI
http://www.amazon.com/DIRECTV-Receiver-Ethernet-Adapter-Generation/dp/B00ZDUSPUY
http://www.amazon.com/Directv-8-Way-Wide-Band-Splitter/dp/B0045DVIP4
 
Claude Greiner

Claude Greiner

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A "long extension cord"? Who has a 700' foot long extension cord laying around? :confused: If you have a UPS (backup battery) you can use that, just charge it up then carry it out to the dish to plug in the PI, receiver and little TV (or PC monitor with an HDMI input since many people don't have a "little" TV anymore) If you don't a small UPS is a lot cheaper than 700' of extension cord... But I agree making sure the dish actually works / is aimed correctly should be the first step and he shouldn't assume anything there.

The Sonora amps are line powered by the same DC voltage from the PI that powers the LNB. They draw a couple watts for themselves at the input and the DC continues on down the line towards the LNB, so they can be located anywhere along the run or even at the dish (so long as you know you won't overamplify the signal)

Ups battery backup I can agree.

As far as the Sonora amps, personally do not see this as correcting the issue.
 
Claude Greiner

Claude Greiner

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Sep 8, 2003
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So you don't need to make a 700' run from the dish, you need to make a 700' run from the house to a single receiver in your man cave?

The error 47-137 is saying you have a weak NETWORK connection - i.e. the networking between Directv receivers. Judging from the picture you are trying to put a C61 client in that location. That is probably never going to work, it needs bidirectional communication over the coax (meaning no amplifier can be used) and is more sensitive to distance than extending satellite that far (and running it off that second splitter that's not designed for Directv usage is only making things worse)

However, since the C61 only needs network to operate there may be another, easier way to go. I'm guessing the man cave isn't connected to your home network now or you would have mentioned it. You can run networking over your 700' coax, just not the type of networking Directv uses.

Buy 2 of the coaxial network adapters, the 2 pack of DECAs, and the 8 port SWM splitter linked below. The setup you have now with a second splitter hanging off your 4 port SWM splitter is not ideal, especially when you're trying to do something 'non standard' like a 700' long run. Considering how little the proper 8 port splitter costs you might as well get everything set up correctly to make troubleshooting easier. So step 1 is to replace your 4 port SWM splitter with the 8 port.

Step 2, extend the 'house' end of that 700' coax inside, using a coupler or whatever. Run another coax inside that's connected to the 8 port splitter outside (so I think you should have five things plugged in that 8 port splitter, the 3 receivers in your house that currently are connected to the 4 port splitter, the 1 receiver in your garage connected to that 'other' splitter, and the 1 new coax you just ran.

Step 3, connect the coaxial ethernet adapters to either end of that 700' coax from inside your man cave to inside your house, then using ethernet cables connect them to the DECAs. The DECA in your house then connects to the new coax you just ran from your 8 port splitter to the inside, and the DECA in the man cave connects to the C61 in your man cave.

http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-Mid-Band-Transmission-Distances-TPA-311/dp/B00684E0UI
http://www.amazon.com/DIRECTV-Receiver-Ethernet-Adapter-Generation/dp/B00ZDUSPUY
http://www.amazon.com/Directv-8-Way-Wide-Band-Splitter/dp/B0045DVIP4

You could try getting a Directv DECCA adaptor and converting the signal to ethernet and then using another DECCA to convert back to coax at the other end.

They say 333 feet of ethernet but if you use Cat6 it might work on that long of run.

The other option if the ethernet is too far is looking into a tycoon EZ bridge.

They are $200 for a pair but that wold work to extend the signal.

Basically go from coax to a decca adaptor to ethernet then to the tycoon ez bridge. Then from EZ bridge to another decca back to coax.

This will only work for wired clients. No directv receivers.

It will also extend internet to your man cave.
 
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slice1900

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You could try getting a Directv DECCA adaptor and converting the signal to ethernet and then using another DECCA to convert back to coax at the other end.

They say 333 feet of ethernet but if you use Cat6 it might work on that long of run.

The other option if the ethernet is too far is looking into a tycoon EZ bridge.

They are $200 for a pair but that wold work to extend the signal.

Basically go from coax to a decca adaptor to ethernet then to the tycoon ez bridge. Then from EZ bridge to another decca back to coax.

This will only work for wired clients. No directv receivers.

It will also extend internet to your man cave.


The 100 meter limit for ethernet is timing based, not signal attenuation based, so you can't override the limit by using better quality cable. Why would he want to use a $200 wireless solution that's bound to be more flakey when what I outlined for him will do it for less than half the price (which will also extend the ethernet to his man cave - it has two RJ45 jacks so it can bridge two independent ethernet segments)
 
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icepik

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The 100 meter limit for ethernet is timing based, not signal attenuation based, so you can't override the limit by using better quality cable. Why would he want to use a $200 wireless solution that's bound to be more flakey when what I outlined for him will do it for less than half the price (which will also extend the ethernet to his man cave - it has two RJ45 jacks so it can bridge two independent ethernet segments)
Thanks for all the help guys. Can't believe how easy the fix was. Swapped a 5 port swim splitter with an 8 port. 7.89 on eBay. Done deal. Thanks again for all the help.
 
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slice1900

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Thanks for all the help guys. Can't believe how easy the fix was. Swapped a 5 port swim splitter with an 8 port. 7.89 on eBay. Done deal. Thanks again for all the help.

You really that one C61 working 700' away over RG6? I'm surprised, but I guess as long as it works!
 
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Ralph Capitol

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Glad you got it going. Non DIRECTV splitters cause a lot of problems. Still a little surprised it works though.
 
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