Installers made a huge deal about everything so I sent them packing ... now what?

[Agonizing Fury]

They showed up late ~ 4:00 PM to install the upgrade system.

Wrong - your appointment as stated in another thread was from 12-5. Last time I checked 4PM is between 12PM and 5PM. If this is not the case in your area, feel free to correct me.

First thing out of their mouth was oh god ... it's on the roof and a chimney. My chimney is 6' x 4' x 4' HUGE, block and brick and that is where the dish is now. They called Dish, a guy named Phil gave me a BS line and I told him he was nuts.

Regardless of how well built your chimney is, Dish frowns upon chimney mounts. Also if the tech would have to climb on the roof, OSHA requires a fall protection kit be installed for safety (read more holes in your roof). The reasoning behind the ban on chimney mounts has nothing to do with the construction of the chimney, but the safety factor in accessing most chimneys, as well as the possibility of carbon buildup on the dish & LNBF if the chimney is used. Phil was probably the tech's Field Service Manager. He was standing by his tech's decision, and the dish network standard, not selling you a line of "BS"

Next they started complaining about the ground and said they would have to run a whole new line back to the power box then back to the receiver???? I suggested cutting the line where it comes into the attic, putting the ground block on it and run the ground line alone back to the power box and the coax to the receiver .... electrically identical. Nope, can't do that! Called Dish again and "Phil" said it had to be to code ... electrically identical ... nuts again.

As has been stated this is a requirement of the NEC (which is ratified as LAW in most, if not all, states), not some silly requirement that Dish or the techs at your house imagined up to piss you off. An improperly grounded (or ungrounded) dish can actually attract lightning. How pissed off would you be if lightning hit the dish and toasted your new HDTV. And By the way, if your dish system is not installed to the NEC standards ratified by your state, the insurance company can DENY a claim for any lightning damage in your home. If you requested it to be installed that way and a tech was stupid enough to do it, you would be on the hook for any damage in your home from a lightning strike.
NEC Code in my area is no more than 30 Ft from electrical bond to ground block (dish says 25 for some wiggle room I guess), and it must be grounded before the cable enters the home. Also, the distance from the bond to the ground block must be at least 5ft shorter than the distance from the ground block to closest receiver.

Then oh my god ... I have to drill a hole .. . can't I lay it on the roof and go in this vent instead! Finally I had enough and told them to leave.

Not sure what you are saying here, but it sounds like you want a hole drilled in your roof?!?!? Most dish techs do not carry the correct equipment to properly seal a cable penetration through a roof. Leaking roofs can do some serious damage money wise. I would never drill a hole in a customer's roof. If that's not the case, I still stand by their decision to attempt to use an existing penetration point on the home. Existing holes are always better than new ones. We drill holes every day, and most of the time it's actually easier to drill a new hole than it is to try to use an existing entry point, but most people frown on new holes in their house.

So am I just screwed on this now? I'm not dealing with another one of these idiots and I have no way of knowing if I can get a good installer.

Who can I call other than the normal number which is a waste of time.

Bottom line, sounds like you got an outstanding tech who was trying to do his job to the dish network standard, and you were being a belligerent customer. If your attitude with the tech was anything like your attitude was in this, or your previous post, you're lucky the tech didn't leave before you asked them to. If that's the case you would also be lucky to get an installer back out to your house for anything. Perhaps before you call again you should do some self reflection, and some research into the laws and decide who the idiot really was in this situation.

 

[Claude Greiner]

You all know I usually side with the installers in these types of situations, but this time im actually siding with the customer in this situation.

Yea, 4PM on a Friday afternoon the technician shows up to do an upgrade, which turns into a full 3-5 hour job doing an almost complete re-installation. The installer gets paid only on an upgrade....

The only issue I see here is that the installer didn't want to do the Job, and was looking for any excuse not to do it, and the customer just gave him the excuse to go home early for the day by sending him packing.

So now the customer who started this thread is going to call Dish and complain and the Job will get rescheduled to a different installer who this will now become their problem to install.

The only reason why I agree with the customer on this one is because the installer should have shut up and did his job without complaining to the customer. As the saying goes, no job is too big, no job is too small, you do them all!

Its no way the customers fault the job was required to be brought up to current specs, as they are un-aware of the installation requirements and its not their problem if the job needs to be re-installed.

 

[rich88]

You all know I usually side with the installers in these types of situations, but this time im actually siding with the customer in this situation.

Yea, 4PM on a Friday afternoon the technician shows up to do an upgrade, which turns into a full 3-5 hour job doing an almost complete re-installation. The installer gets paid only on an upgrade....

The only issue I see here is that the installer didn't want to do the Job, and was looking for any excuse not to do it, and the customer just gave him the excuse to go home early for the day by sending him packing.

So now the customer who started this thread is going to call Dish and complain and the Job will get rescheduled to a different installer who this will now become their problem to install.

The only reason why I agree with the customer on this one is because the installer should have shut up and did his job without complaining to the customer. As the saying goes, no job is too big, no job is too small, you do them all!Its no way the customers fault the job was required to be brought up to current specs, as they are un-aware of the installation requirements and its not their problem if the job needs to be re-installed.

Claude, you seem to be having a little problem grasping the fact that Charlie operates by his rules, not YOURS.

Charlie expects the techs to perform according to his rules, not YOURS.

If Charlie ever goes to "get the job in, no matter what, screw the code", then we'll be doing it because it his rule, not YOURS.

 

[rexlan]

You all know I usually side with the installers in these types of situations, but this time im actually siding with the customer in this situation.

Yea, 4PM on a Friday afternoon the technician shows up to do an upgrade, which turns into a full 3-5 hour job doing an almost complete re-installation. The installer gets paid only on an upgrade....

The only issue I see here is that the installer didn't want to do the Job, and was looking for any excuse not to do it, and the customer just gave him the excuse to go home early for the day by sending him packing.

So now the customer who started this thread is going to call Dish and complain and the Job will get rescheduled to a different installer who this will now become their problem to install.

The only reason why I agree with the customer on this one is because the installer should have shut up and did his job without complaining to the customer. As the saying goes, no job is too big, no job is too small, you do them all!

Its no way the customers fault the job was required to be brought up to current specs, as they are un-aware of the installation requirements and its not their problem if the job needs to be re-installed.

Thanks and you get the BINGO.

It's funny how a thread goes into run-away with speculation after one poster makes an assumption, which is incorrect, and the sheep line up and just follow along. The assumptions and mis-information build from there. I am in SW Virginia

First .. I am an electrical engineer and well aware of the code. I also have a state electrical administrators license ... I am pretty familiar with "code" ... Installing these dish systems requires a 3rd grade education .... doing a good job requires a craftsman who is proud of their work and not a lazy ass looking for an easy buck.

These installers did finally call about the appointment and said they would be on the job at 2:00 ... they showed up at 4:00 ... I call that late, which wasn't really an issue other than since they had over a 1.5 hour drive home from my house I think they wanted a quickie. They barely got out of the truck and had a issue with "oh my god ... a roof mount".

My impression is that they looked for every reason possible to NOT do the job and that they were just plain lazy. It was two girls and the "leader" could barely climb the stairs into the attic. They were polite and knew the dish equipment; however, they were clueless about electrical but I won't get into that.

No one at any time told them they could not, or should not, do a proper installation. They wanted to do a crap down and dirty job.

My existing coax is RG6. It comes from my dish thru the roof into the attic and it is properly sealed. It has been there for 6 years with no difficulty. You can stand up in the attic. What was/is required is to enlarge the existing hole to accommodate the new cable. On the inside (in the attic) the coax can be cut, the block installed and the coax (existing RG6) continued to the receiver. The same block can be properly grounded back to the electrical (less than 25 feet). Pretty simple.

However, they said that would not work .... they wanted to take the cable from the dish to the electrical, install the block and then run the coax back to the receiver .... that's is just stupid because it is electrically identical! Then they figured that would be a lot of work ... LOL ... and decided it would be better to mount the dish on the side of the house next to the electrical!

My roof is nothing spectacular, normal single story ~ 8 feet. I know you can break your neck falling in the shower too. My chimney is huge and my existing dish is mounted on it waist high .... this is so simple even I can do it!

My impression was that they wanted to do as little as possible and looked for every problem they could fine to either not do the job or to do a poor job. They wanted to mount it to the side of the house and fish a line thru the eve. I see these things on peoples front porches on the pillars and all sorts of crappy installations. I won't blame that on Dish or the "code".

So, now that the arm chair critics have chimed in can anyone else offer some constructive advice as to how I can deal with this now? I'd be very happy to install it myself but can't seem to get the equipment from Dish.

 

[DirectDishNet]

Thanks and you get the BINGO.
Installing these dish systems requires a 3rd grade education ...

I would chime in but I only have a 3rd grade education so I won't.

 

[Sileny Jizda]

There are days I don't like my job. Days I have to do more work than usually required. Some days less than required. In my line of work I deal with customers every day. When I show up and it looks like a pair of two year old tornado's ripped everything to h-e-double toothpicks does it make me upset? Yes. Do I stand around witching and moaning about every little detail to the customer though? No. I do my job, do it well, and do it professionally. In most cases it's not the customers screw up, it was the nimrod before me. Do what needs to be done without complaining and get on to the next. Be glad you have a job in the times we live. It could be worse, you could be sitting on your arse on unemployment.

Too many people want to get everything quick and easy. Then you get a couple of their buddies that have the same mentality try and rip a guy apart in a forum. Way to go. Great customer service guys.

 

[peaked]

Something about the phrase: "..get the job in, no matter what.." seems very familiar. Bottom line is this: if customer signs off that they will be responsible or will not allow grounding work, etc.,ON THE CONTRACT/SERVICE AGREEMENT, then the tech and company are off the hook. Problem is, when your recievers get fried as well as all or most of your phones, it's hard to be the big man then and say; "That guy told me this could happen" It will suddenly be all his fault and the lawyer will say you have a case. You have a case, but not one you can win if you write in that you will be responsible for any future problems caused. The tech. had to make a decision to risk getting caught leaving most of the existing service intact, or trying to bring system up to code. He did the honest thing and tried to keep you informed. If you thought he was late at 4 P.M., I wonder how you would react to him telling you this could take hours. The standard reply I get from cust.'s in this situation is "But that first guy was gone in 30 minutes." Check the system and it is not grounded, no sealant on the roof mount or penetrations,none of the cable runs tacked down,etc. I got tired of doing someone else's work, but when you think about getting backcharged and times being as they are, maybe losing your job, you take one for the team. Team you,that is. I invite any customer to stand in our shoes. Go to your local dish affiliate,get an application, see what tech.s are responsible for and all the work they are supposed to do. Talk to some tech.s and hear the horror stories. Look at the cost of materials and equipment,as well as the average drive to the cust. house. After that sobers you up, you will probably have a new respect for those few of us left still trying to do this crazy job. We have plenty of problems built into the job. When we get whiny cust.'s, that puts the icing on the cake. Not to say you whine, but the guy you had was trying to cover his own butt and protect his job. I probably would have said chimney mount necessary per line of sight,cust. responsible for roof penetration and grounding, put that in writing and have the dish CSR's to note as much on account notes, and made a reference to it in my notes on the job. Then I would have put it in and got the heck outta there.

 

[peaked]

Just noticed your second post there, Rexlan. I see it was two "girls". You probably added that while I was typing my first reply. I am that fast. I wonder if you would have been so critical if Moose and Rocko showed up. If you know the codes,which vary, and the NEC codes, then you are probably aware of companies,municipalities that make exceptions or alter those codes. Dish Network policy is formed in conjunction with NEC engineers, and applied to our particular appliances. If you have a problem with that, talk to corporate or sign a sheet that says you'll be responsible for any surge or lightning damage. Let them do the job their way, and after they leave,put your bond & ground where you want it. This will void the warranty on workmanship and parts, but you will get what you want.

 

[Hall]

The only reason why I agree with the customer on this one is because the installer should have shut up and did his job without complaining to the customer. As the saying goes, no job is too big, no job is too small, you do them all!

Its no way the customers fault the job was required to be brought up to current specs, as they are un-aware of the installation requirements and its not their problem if the job needs to be re-installed.

Sorry Claude, you're wrong here.... then again, maybe you read a different post or something. You say it's not the customer's fault that the job has to be done different. The issue is, the customer wanted things basically left alone. He wanted the new dish mounted on the chimney like the old dish, wanted wiring done in a short-cut manner, and later claims he knows "code".

 

[Hall]

Based on the OP's comments in all of his posts, it sure would be funny if "word" got around about him and got him black-listed.

 

[Sileny Jizda]

I thought you guys have an Installers Forum to bash the "custy's" in? From the original posters comments the guy rolled in with an attitude about the job. I'm sure a simple explanation about the changes that have taken place for installs since he was hooked up would have gone much further than groaning about the whole job as soon as he stepped out of the truck. Things change and the majority of people understand when it is explained to them politely and clearly. Moaning about the situation and complaining about it will does nothing but frustrate the customer.

You present a negative attitude towards a customer and act shocked when they present one back? Really, that is definition of unprofessional at its best. You got a problem with the job which about it to Dish Network. They made the changes not the customer. Then again, it's so much easier to bash the customer on a forum.

 

[bookworm370]

I thought you guys have an Installers Forum to bash the "custy's" in? From the original posters comments the guy rolled in with an attitude about the job. I'm sure a simple explanation about the changes that have taken place for installs since he was hooked up would have gone much further than groaning about the whole job as soon as he stepped out of the truck. Things change and the majority of people understand when it is explained to them politely and clearly. Moaning about the situation and complaining about it will does nothing but frustrate the customer.

You present a negative attitude towards a customer and act shocked when they present one back? Really, that is definition of unprofessional at its best. You got a problem with the job which about it to Dish Network. They made the changes not the customer. Then again, it's so much easier to bash the customer on a forum.

Good on ya mate!

If the installers want to talk to us lil folk, then at least give us constructive advice. If you want to bash us, go to your 'private place' and go ahead and be omnipotent gurus.

I do have to give you guys some credit though. You are caught between a rock (Charlie) and a hard place (Customer Satisfaction) with not much in between (profit). After a few installs I got some of the installers to really tell me how the payments are made and how they get (cough) reimbursed. I thought it was/is highway robbery, so on that one, I'm on your side.

But you have to understand that a normal 'uneducated' customer thinks they are really dealing with Dish Network in Colorado and not a sub. The one time I did get a real Dish installer (from Indy) he was super courteous, talked to me like a real person, went way out of his way to do things right (even though I would have been content with a switch, he ran an entire new cable from the dish, either one would have met the standards) so that I could have more options in the future if I wanted to expand again.

He worked in 100 degree temps on ladders when he didn't have to and I tried to help him as much as I could with holding and feeding cable to him, bringing him cold water, etc. He was commenting on how as he ran the cable he had to pull out the old cheap anchors the other installer used on the dual coax and re-fasten everything with new anchors and even tie wraps. The previous sub used the cheap (low dielectric(sp)) barrel connectors and explained how the dish's push power through the lines and the cheap radio shack stuff will fail and cause issues.

In fact, after he commented on how well the ground was connected from my Dish though a separate run to a 10' ground rod, I had to laugh. The installer that originally put the 1000.2 up never grounded it ANYWHERE and it's the HIGHEST point on my house! No ground blocks in the cable, no ground wire to a ground point. After verifying the Dish install procedures, I went up myself and attached (bonded) a heavy copper ground line, ran it down the side of the building and had a local contractor friend come out and pound in the 10' ground stake.

It became so obvious as to the quality of his works that I asked him the difference between our local CMH subs and real Dish paid installers and he gave me the info. Again, I couldn't believe you guys even make any money at this much less have to take the sh_)_t from the customers.

But all that aside, we didn't create or going to fix the situation. The situation is dictated by Colorado and all we can do is try to work within the limits. If I understand what the limits are then I will work to help you out as much as I can. From what I've read, the original installers just said they couldn't do it (or didn't want to do it) without really taking the time to explain why.

So, if the installers would like to really help the customers then help us. Don't treat us as idiots. I agree, a lot are, but some of us do have more than a 3rd grade education and really just want a good install and something that will work and not damage our personal property either directly or indirectly through a lightning strike and fire.

[soapbox off]

 

[KAB]

Let's just chalk it up to a case of Oil and Water.

 

[585960]

If there was a LOS from the ground or wall by the electrical, the system should have been rebuilt from there, and run up into the existing lines with the ghastly hi -freq barrels tying in there.

 

[TainterGate]

In fact, after he commented on how well the ground was connected from my Dish though a separate run to a 10' ground rod, I had to laugh. The installer that originally put the 1000.2 up never grounded it ANYWHERE and it's the HIGHEST point on my house! No ground blocks in the cable, no ground wire to a ground point. After verifying the Dish install procedures, I went up myself and attached (bonded) a heavy copper ground line, ran it down the side of the building and had a local contractor friend come out and pound in the 10' ground stake.

bookworm370, Did you also bond your new 10' ground stake with your existing house/service ground? You might do some research on your new grounding setup and the potential safety hazard it may cause?

If you care for me to elaborate, I'll gladly explain for safety sake. I'm not out to fault what you've done, but only to find an end solution that will be the safest situation. You may have already covered what is required, but have not listed it in my posted quote of yours.

Best Regards

 

[TainterGate]

On another note regarding Grounding/Grounds. When it is referred to as properly grounding... the main purpose to this end is for personal safety. It is highly probable that all your connected electrical equipment in your house, including especially the sensitive electronic equipment (Satellite receiver/s, etc.) are going to sustain irreparable damage if a lightning strikes immanently close to your house. Voltage/surge arrestors installed inline before your household electrical devices, which I highly recommend, will stand a likely chance of preservation in the high voltage surges caused by lightning, electric utility anomalies. etc.

Best Regards

 

[DirectDishNet]

I thought you guys have an Installers Forum to bash the "custy's" in?

No bashing here, He came in and asked the question "Now What?" and we gave him an answer. Our answer as an installer was not intended to "Bash" anyone, We only replied to his question as we see it and as professional satellite low voltage technicians.


MODS: Please close this thread as it is going nowhere or going in the wrong direction.

 

[UnSat]

So, now that the arm chair critics have chimed in can anyone else offer some constructive advice as to how I can deal with this now? I'd be very happy to install it myself but can't seem to get the equipment from Dish.

Suggest you go to your local retailer ,purchase everything you need and do it yourself.

 

[Frank Jr.]

I like Claude will normally side with the installer. You have an existing install that works. That tells me that what ever upgrade the home owner wants should be feasible unless there is a line of sight issue. I upgraded from SD using the 110 and 119 sats to the eastern arc that swings the dish in another direction. Showing up late doesn't bother me because installers can run into a quick easy install or one that requires more work prior to the next install. Just because the dish was on the roof doesn't matter. If you are an installer you should know this. Like it or not the home owner has the ultimate decision. It is their home.

 

[bookworm370]

bookworm370, Did you also bond your new 10' ground stake with your existing house/service ground? You might do some research on your new grounding setup and the potential safety hazard it may cause?

If you care for me to elaborate, I'll gladly explain for safety sake. I'm not out to fault what you've done, but only to find an end solution that will be the safest situation. You may have already covered what is required, but have not listed it in my posted quote of yours.

Best Regards

Tainter,

Sure, sorry I wasn't more precise but my post was getting big.

I grounded the dish and pole directly down the wall to the 10' rod dedicated for this purpose. I then put a grounding block on the incoming cables and grounded that to the home electrical power ground. So there are really 3 grounds in my system.

1. The direct ground running from the wall mounted pole to the 10' stake.
2. The grounding block(s) now that there are 3 cables, that attach to the home power electric ground.
3. On the F-Connector distribution passthru block in my basement, the entire block (and therefor all cables that pass through it) is grounded with a smaller gauge (14 gauge) wire back to the emergency panel ground (I have a backup natural-gas generator with a transfer switch).
   
   The switch and 2 panels (main and aux) are all connected to the same home electrical ground, but I grounded the inside patch panel to the generator panel just in case the transfer switch is energized and the house is running off of generator power.

I hope this gives you a better idea.

BW

Ed: Oh, I also have 2 whole house surge protectors on each power panel and each DVR and all my media equipment are connected to 3 OMNI-UPS full sine-wave UPS and line conditioners. I have 3 DVR's and 3 viewing rooms. The UPS's power everything until the generator kicks in, so I only need about 40 seconds of backup until generator power kicks in. Each UPS varies from 1500kVA to 4000kVA depending on where they are. The smaller ones are in the MBR and Basement (less load) and the big guy is in back of my family room media center (63" Samsung Plasma, HT Receiver, 722k, Apple TV, etc. etc. etc). Lots of stuff to bring up if power fails.