Installers made a huge deal about everything so I sent them packing ... now what?

[DirectDishNet]

Just because the dish was on the roof doesn't matter. If you are an installer you should know this. Like it or not the home owner has the ultimate decision. It is their home.

Frank Jr., With all due respect. As an installer there are some things to keep in mind. Just because the customer has good signal, watching TV and has a dish on a roof does not mean that I will leave the install the way it is.

My reasoning is, As a sub-contractor such as myself, I pay for my gas and materials and want to get paid to do the job. If I arrive at a job and it is an upgrade (swap 322 for 722 add HD dish) I just can't swap the dish and receiver without bringing the job "Up to specs". So if the dish is mounted on a chimney I can not leave it there. If the current cable is not grounded within specs, I would have to change it. and so on and so on.........

Frank, Even if it is a service call on a remote, If I go to the job I own that job from top to bottom. Dish has set standards and if it is not brought up to specs, I get a backcharge for the whole job. So if I go to do a trouble call (customers remote not functioning) I could spend 5 minutes programming the remote but would still have to bring the job up to specs per dish. A trouble call pays me $45 but if I don't bring it up to specs I could be back charged over $100-$180 because I didnt bring it up to specs.

So if I go to a upgrade, I could have to spend 2-3 hours bringing it up to specs so not to be charged for a QA fail.

Now if a home owner does not want the dish to be moved or does not want the cable routed closer to a ground source, I have a decision to make. 1. Do it anyway and get back charged so do it for free OR 2. don't do it and explain to the customer that I can't do it that way due to dish regulations.

We don't know if the techs that came to the posters home were sub contractors or "In House" techs.......More times than not Dish QA inspectors will go to inspect a service call or trouble call after I leave to see if I bring it up to specs or not. They like to inspect jobs that they know they can catch us on something.

So in closing, I have to bring the job up to dish standards or risk a "Fail" If the customer will not allow me to do what I need to do, I can't do the job. No matter what the job is, Service call, dish move, upgrade or what ever I must bring it up to specs per dish.

I can not afford any fails, I can't do the job for free.

 

[Frank Jr.]

Frank Jr., With all due respect. As an installer there are some things to keep in mind. Just because the customer has good signal, watching TV and has a dish on a roof does not mean that I will leave the install the way it is.

My reasoning is, As a sub-contractor such as myself, I pay for my gas and materials and want to get paid to do the job. If I arrive at a job and it is an upgrade (swap 322 for 722 add HD dish) I just can't swap the dish and receiver without bringing the job "Up to specs". So if the dish is mounted on a chimney I can not leave it there. If the current cable is not grounded within specs, I would have to change it. and so on and so on.........

Frank, Even if it is a service call on a remote, If I go to the job I own that job from top to bottom. Dish has set standards and if it is not brought up to specs, I get a backcharge for the whole job. So if I go to do a trouble call (customers remote not functioning) I could spend 5 minutes programming the remote but would still have to bring the job up to specs per dish. A trouble call pays me $45 but if I don't bring it up to specs I could be back charged over $100-$180 because I didn't bring it up to specs.

So if I go to a upgrade, I could have to spend 2-3 hours bringing it up to specs so not to be charged for a QA fail.

Now if a home owner does not want the dish to be moved or does not want the cable routed closer to a ground source, I have a decision to make. 1. Do it anyway and get back charged so do it for free OR 2. don't do it and explain to the customer that I can't do it that way due to dish regulations.

We don't know if the techs that came to the posters home were sub contractors or "In House" techs.......More times than not Dish QA inspectors will go to inspect a service call or trouble call after I leave to see if I bring it up to specs or not. They like to inspect jobs that they know they can catch us on something.

So in closing, I have to bring the job up to dish standards or risk a "Fail" If the customer will not allow me to do what I need to do, I can't do the job. No matter what the job is, Service call, dish move, upgrade or what ever I must bring it up to specs per dish.

I can not afford any fails, I can't do the job for free.

No argument. I agree. Well said as well.:up I realize customers can be unreasonable however just because the dish is on the roof shouldn't prevent the customer from having an install.

 

[bebop]

On another note regarding Grounding/Grounds. When it is referred to as properly grounding... the main purpose to this end is for personal safety. It is highly probable that all your connected electrical equipment in your house, including especially the sensitive electronic equipment (Satellite receiver/s, etc.) are going to sustain irreparable damage if a lightning strikes immanently close to your house. Voltage/surge arrestors installed inline before your household electrical devices, which I highly recommend, will stand a likely chance of preservation in the high voltage surges caused by lightning, electric utility anomalies. etc.

Best Regards

Your thoughts on my case where the initial install never was grounded??

The dish is about 50' away from the electrical service & ground (opposite corner of the house).

I'm thinking about having a service tech come out and do a ground. But if they come out, I don't think there is a better spot to put the dish, so the distance is a concern.

Is it that big of a deal to have it grounded? I'd rather have them do it, but not drill new holes in the roof to remount the dish...

 

[Frank Jr.]

Your thoughts on my case where the initial install never was grounded??

The dish is about 50' away from the electrical service & ground (opposite corner of the house).

I'm thinking about having a service tech come out and do a ground. But if they come out, I don't think there is a better spot to put the dish, so the distance is a concern.

Is it that big of a deal to have it grounded? I'd rather have them do it, but not drill new holes in the roof to remount the dish...

I wish that the installer that showed up could share their side of all this. With that said there is one thing I have to say. I will not put holes in my shingles. I know it is common practice. I did it years ago to put guide wires on an ota antenna.... If it cannot be installed any other way I will go with cable or no tv service. obtw bebop yes it is very very important to have it grounded properly!

 

[DirectDishNet]

If it cannot be installed any other way I will go with cable or no tv service.

I agree!, I would not allow any holes in my shingles either. But if it is any consolation, As an installer I avoid drilling into roofs at all cost. Even if it is over a NON living space. I would find other places to mount the dish such as a fascia.

 

[Frank Jr.]

I agree!, I would not allow any holes in my shingles either. But if it is any consolation, As an installer I avoid drilling into roofs at all cost. Even if it is over a NON living space. I would find other places to mount the dish such as a fascia.

:up

 

[TheForce]

rexlan-

This is an interesting thread. I empathize with you and agree with Claude as well. But there is one thing I think you need to understand, These installers are just trying to do their job by the rules and get paid. You have to respect that they are under a magnifying glass to do the job according to the rules set by their employer, not you. Their employer, is under the magnifying glass of codes and regulations as well as company policies so consequently, they can't always do as the home owner wants.
But that does not say you have to back off and allow them free reign over your property. You have every right to refuse the install if they do not do it according to your wishes.
Now having said that, I do have a solution for you. It is what I do here. Like you I am not a Dish installer, however, I am a licensed BE and a PE and have held a master's electricians license in NY State a number of years ago but I still know how to read and interpret the NEC code. I have always done my own installs and as I understand, some of my installation is no longer permitted by Dish, e.g. the roof mount. BUT, this is a Dish policy ( Claude, correct me if I am wrong on this ) But the code certainly allows this. In addition, some communities also have building codes you have to follow and these are not normally universal. We have one here and I had recently the opportunity to have the city inspector examine my antenna roof mounts to be sure they met code. Fortunately mine did. In conversation I also learned that running wires through roof vents is a violation so those of you experts in NEC code but not in local building codes, better check your area out.
Any, back to my solution for you- What I do is do my own install and meet all codes. Then when the installer comes out he can't say, I can't do that because it doesn't meet code. You've already done that. There is plenty of information on the net for you to define the best wiring. And don't forget, there are three types of grounds, Electrical, RF, and static. By the sound of your post, you may just be considering the electrical circuit similarity. In antenna grounding we are looking at RF and static. with Dish antennas, it's all about static, since RF grounding is unimportant. Static grounding is quite a different animal than electrical grounding. I'm a firm believer in establishing a separate ground rod for each antenna that is more than 15 ft. apart. I feel the antenna coax, needs to be blocked on the outside of the house ( code) and the block grounded at the ground rod. the block should be located right at the point of entry into the house. The issue of a ground wire to the electrical main panel is more of a "Bonding" issue not grounding for static. It prevents floating voltage on the shield. In this case a bond wire of #8 copper solid should be run from the ground rod to the panel and to the meter box that has it's own ground rod. OK, that is about all I dare get into this in this thread but, hopefully you get my direction on this considering your qualifications. Now when that installer shows up, he won't have anything to do since all your stuff meets code.

The last installer I had here was not "professional" class at all. He left my wiring on the outside of the house in a rats nest of messed up craziness. Plus, while he installed my new 722 and finally got the sat signal working he completely wrecked the signal to my 622 in another room and didn't care about that and told me to schedule a repair appointment. I smiled and was happy to see him go. After he left, I spent the next 2 hours undoing all the rats nest he put in and rewired it neatly and correctly so both my receivers worked according to the way they were supposed to. What was the problem ? Well he was upgrading a 921 to a 722 and claimed the 722 would not work with an SW64. I didn't argue eventhough when he swapped out the 921 with the 722 as a simple plugin everything worked fine. he had to replace the LNB with a DPP system as per his instructions and that is where he really fouled everything up. He worked from noon until 6 PM and then left. I worked until 8PM and had it all back rewired with the new DPP LNB and had TV before supper that night.

So the bottom line is, Dish has a new policy now that you can't do your own installs. They want their people to do it. But the little known secret is, they don't pay these guys much and therefore if you do the work the way YOU want, but be sure to meet all codes and if possible, meet Dishes policies too, you give then nothing to do. They are there short and they make a profit on your job and you got it on your home the way you want and rest assured it meets code.

 

[bebop]

I wish that the installer that showed up could share their side of all this. With that said there is one thing I have to say. I will not put holes in my shingles. I know it is common practice. I did it years ago to put guide wires on an ota antenna.... If it cannot be installed any other way I will go with cable or no tv service. obtw bebop yes it is very very important to have it grounded properly!

Some background: When I bought my home there was a dish mounting plate on the roof, so I removed it and caulked/siliconed it up. Then about 2 years later I subscribed to Dish and the most sensible location was the same one as I sealed up. So they re-used the same holes and again I sealed up the roof - this time around the new holes.

I thought it was important for grounding, so I'll get a technician out here and hopefully they don't balk or have to change a bunch of stuff just to ground it.

What should I expect? I don't know the offical laws/rules they should be following for grounding a satellite dish here in Idaho, but I don't want them to walk off without doing things properly. I also would rather not relocate my dish.

 

[DirectDishNet]

Just want to again mention as this thread is going a farce again.

There are many types of installers, Good ones bad ones and everything in between.
There are DNSC (Dish Network Service Center) techs, Contractors, sub contractors, sub sub contractors, independent contractors, fulfillment techs, retail installers, fly by night techs, and techs that install their own sales. To tell you the truth, it is a coin toss if you get one that will follow code. You could get one that don't care and just sling the install.

I am a sub contractor, Fully insured up to 1 million. I have a low voltage contractors license for the state of Iowa and Arizona, and have a occupational license. My jobs are given to me through 3 different RSP's (retail service providers) here locally. One checks all of my work with a fine tooth comb as it is dish fulfillment, The second one checks like one out of 10 of my jobs and the third one don't care if I ever ground a job. The third retailer has his own sales people that bang on doors so the jobs never get checked "QA'd" by dish.

So with that said, You can see why it is a coin toss on what kind of installer you get.

 

[Frank Jr.]

bebop please tell us what is currently on your roof and what will be changed and moved for what reason. As you have read I do not like putting holes in a shingled roof, much less moving something and putting more holes in the roof for the same purpose. Proper grounding usually is not a major problem.

 

[Frank Jr.]

I have a great idea if possible.....DirectDishNet seems to know what he is talking about. bebop pm him. He can help more than I can.

 

[DirectDishNet]

NASA is exploring the moon for water so we may one day populate it. I wonder if the moon's ground will allow for a good ground when we start pounding ground rods in the surface...... Think dish would inspect our work there?

(This thread is getting wild, Just wanted to add some funny to it)

 

[Frank Jr.]

NASA is exploring the moon for water so we may one day populate it. I wonder if the moon's ground will allow for a good ground when we start pounding ground rods in the surface...... Think dish would inspect our work there?

(This thread is getting wild, Just wanted to add some funny to it)

You are to good. To me grounding is very simple. To some it can be very complicated. Some can make it very complicated.

 

[DirectDishNet]

You are to good. To me grounding is very simple. To some it can be very complicated. Some can make it very complicated.

I'm glad you got what I was subliminally saying......

 

[Liquidforce88]

My existing coax is RG6. It comes from my dish thru the roof into the attic and it is properly sealed. It has been there for 6 years with no difficulty. You can stand up in the attic. What was/is required is to enlarge the existing hole to accommodate the new cable. .

ERR ERR ERR Wha Wha WHa

Wrong wrong wrong. First thing Dish DOES NOT ALLOW cable to roof penatrate. AUTO FAIL!!!!

On the inside (in the attic) the coax can be cut, the block installed and the coax (existing RG6) continued to the receiver. The same block can be properly grounded back to the electrical (less than 25 feet). Pretty simple.

ERR ERR ERR Wha Wha WHa
Strike 2

Wrong again you need a messanger cable from the dish to the ground block, and as stated before some area's it is required to ground before entry into the building, this is not a code thing this is a DISH NETWORK standard.

However, they said that would not work .... they wanted to take the cable from the dish to the electrical, install the block and then run the coax back to the receiver .... that's is just stupid because it is electrically identical!

Wrong again! It's not identical, if what you wanted was identical to DISH standards they would have done that. Again as stated several times, it don't matter that you are blah blah blah state electrical administrators license what ever. Dish says ground block goes outside house, must be within 25' of house ground. Over done the installer has no choice thats the way it has to be done. PERIOD!

Then they figured that would be a lot of work ... LOL ... and decided it would be better to mount the dish on the side of the house next to the electrical!

No we already went over the fact that your dish is mounted in a way that is no longer allowed by Dish Network. They offered a way to redo your system that would meet Dish Network standards, but you did not like that answer.

My roof is nothing spectacular, normal single story ~ 8 feet. I know you can break your neck falling in the shower too. My chimney is huge and my existing dish is mounted on it waist high .... this is so simple even I can do it!

Man how many times do we have to say this. DISH NETWORK DOES NOT ALLOW CHIMNEY MOUNTS ANY LONGER. ANY SYSTEM FOUND WITH A CHIMNEY MOUNT HAS TO BE BROUGHT UP TO DISH STANDARD, THUS THE DISH HAS TO BE MOVED!

It can be moved to the roof, a pole mount, or the side of a house in certain situations.

My impression was that they wanted to do as little as possible and looked for every problem they could fine to either not do the job or to do a poor job. They wanted to mount it to the side of the house and fish a line thru the eve. I see these things on peoples front porches on the pillars and all sorts of crappy installations. I won't blame that on Dish or the "code".

WHAT? If they wanted to be lazy they would have left the system as is and slaped a new dish up threw a new receiver in and left. No they said we can't leave the system like this, this is waht we have to do, here is how we would like to do it. You said oh no stupid lazy installer I am blah blah blah state electrical administrators license blah blah this is how I say you do it, or you can pack up and leave.

So, now that the arm chair critics have chimed in can anyone else offer some constructive advice as to how I can deal with this now? I'd be very happy to install it myself but can't seem to get the equipment from Dish.

And you call all of us arm chair critics........ Maybe you should LISTEN to what some people have been trying to tell you. Dish has standards, they have to be met. If the customer does not let the installer do the job up to standard, he walks. The installer has no choice in this. I don't think any installer that has replied to this thread as been anything but willing to helo you understand that this is the way Dish wants things done. Installers don't have a choice but to do it the way Dish says it has to be done. Maybe the installers you had did not convey that to you in a way that you could comprehend or you just did not want to hear it, I have no way of knowing.

So go out and Buy a receiver and buy a dish. I am sure they can be had for several hundred. Then have yourself a good ole time. Just be aware that when your stuff does not work, NO installer will be able to service it for you.

 

[KAB]

THE END

 

[DirectDishNet]

But wait!, There's more!

 

[bookworm370]

Actually, this has gone from off topic to very informative to read! :up

 

[Sadoun]

My general advice to customers, is PLEASE let the installers do their jobs that they are trained to do. The most annoying thing for an installer is when a home owner is standing watching over the installer's shoulder and telling the installer what he should or can't do.

The installer is a professional and is expected to follow the guidelines and do a fine quality installation. This will prevent/reduce future service calls and will make the system operational for many years to come.

Now a days, it is tough out there for installers. The pay is not keeping up with inflation and the penalty for not doing an install by the book are steep. An installer told me today that he was charged $25 on a job he did for a customer because he did not connect the receiver to the landline. The problem is, the customer does not use or have a land line, he uses a cellular phone exclusively.

Another customer insisted that the installer use a non-penetrating roof mount. But this is not part of the basic installation requirements and the service provider would not cover a NPRM. The installer makes $70 on the installation, but expected to pay $65 out of pocket for the NRRM?

When an installer travels 1.5 hrs to do a job, but can't do it, who is paying for his time, fuel costs, and lost opportunity?

Let's give these guys some credit, please.

 

[TainterGate]

What I do is do my own install and meet all codes. Then when the installer comes out he can't say, I can't do that because it doesn't meet code. You've already done that. There is plenty of information on the net for you to define the best wiring. And don't forget, there are three types of grounds, Electrical, RF, and static. By the sound of your post, you may just be considering the electrical circuit similarity. In antenna grounding we are looking at RF and static. with Dish antennas, it's all about static, since RF grounding is unimportant. Static grounding is quite a different animal than electrical grounding. I'm a firm believer in establishing a separate ground rod for each antenna that is more than 15 ft. apart. I feel the antenna coax, needs to be blocked on the outside of the house ( code) and the block grounded at the ground rod. the block should be located right at the point of entry into the house. The issue of a ground wire to the electrical main panel is more of a "Bonding" issue not grounding for static. It prevents floating voltage on the shield. In this case a bond wire of #8 copper solid should be run from the ground rod to the panel and to the meter box that has it's own ground rod. OK, that is about all I dare get into this in this thread but, hopefully you get my direction on this considering your qualifications. Now when that installer shows up, he won't have anything to do since all your stuff meets code.

Don Landis, you have a good handle on electrical theory and application regarding grounding. This quoted explanation is priceless!



bebop, the Don Landis quote should answer your question thoroughly?

The dish is about 50' away from the electrical service & ground (opposite corner of the house).

Is it that big of a deal to have it grounded? I'd rather have them do it, but not drill new holes in the roof to remount the dish...