Is RG59 OK to use between Genie and mini clients?

[TominKY]

There goes a 1/2 day of vacation for nothing! Had installation scheduled for today (third try), and the tech said since house is wired with RG59 coax he could not complete the install. Now I understand that RG6 is required between the main Genie, the dish, and the SWM, but I thought either RG6 or RG59 could be used between the Genie and the clients. If RG6 is required, I am screwed, because the basement is finished and there is no way to fish RG6 to the client locations upstairs. I know for a fact that DISH says that RG59 can be used with their Hopper and its clients (Joeys). Are things different for the Genie?

 

[texasbrit]

DirecTV's "rule" is RG6. However, experienced installers know that RG59 is usually OK particularly on any cable carrying "whole home" signals like the ones to the genie clients, because they use frequencies lower than regular DirecTV signals and so the extra signal attenuation of RG59 is not an issue. And since they do not carry power, there's no power loss issue either. RG59 runs of up to 40-50ft or so are usually OK. The last three new installs I have seen all used the existing RG59 in the runs to the genie clients, one was 70ft and works fine. But the installer might be afraid of failing a DirecTV quality inspection....

 

[TominKY]

Well, that figures. The guy who came out Saturday spoke fluent English and seemed to know his stuff. Guy who came out today spoke broken English at best, and did not exactly inspire confidence on my part. Sure wish I had gotten a cell phone number of the first guy. I doubt if I can request a particular tech from DTV.

It turns out that I do apparently have a short run of RG59 that goes from the closet where the SWM is located to the outside connection on the side of the house. This will probably have to be replaced with RG6, right? It will be the line that feeds the dish.

 

[raoul5788]

Any chance of hiding a new run of RG6 behind a baseboard? By either cutting the back bottom corner off, or routing a groove in the back, you can hide a cable that way. Just be careful when attaching the baseboard not to nail through the cable.

 

[TominKY]

Any chance of hiding a new run of RG6 behind a baseboard? By either cutting the back bottom corner off, or routing a groove in the back, you can hide a cable that way. Just be careful when attaching the baseboard not to nail through the cable.

Chip, baseboards are not the issue - the big problem is that almost EVERYTHING in the basement is finished in with drywall. Believe me, I'm pretty handy at running cable - I have done it several times in this house alone, and it would be a herculean effort.

I went back down to the closet and found that I do in fact have two runs of RG6 going outside to the existing DISH dual LNB satellite dish, so that won't be an issue. I will either have to make do with the existing RG59 runs out to the clients, or wait for the wireless Genie solution to come along.

I rescheduled for Friday, and they are going to try to request the same tech that came out on Saturday. Hope I get him.

 

[Joe Diamond]

Chip, baseboards are not the issue - the big problem is that almost EVERYTHING in the basement is finished in with drywall. Believe me, I'm pretty handy at running cable - I have done it several times in this house alone, and it would be a herculean effort.

I went back down to the closet and found that I do in fact have two runs of RG6 going outside to the existing DISH dual LNB satellite dish, so that won't be an issue. I will either have to make do with the existing RG59 runs out to the clients, or wait for the wireless Genie solution to come along.

I rescheduled for Friday, and they are going to try to request the same tech that came out on Saturday. Hope I get him.

To add to what has been said.....While you will be fine with the RG59 there are some other things to consider.

SPLITTERS anywhere in your RG59 system will screw up everything. During the period RG59 was used you could expect the lines to run from the attic where the OTA feed came in down through the structure with splitters uses without regard for access or future use.

RUNS in SERIES were as common as splitters and cannot be used. HOMERUNS from sat source to receivers is required...not just a preference. Loops can be bypassed and some line salvaged with barrel connectors.

PULLS can sometimes be accomplished by using the existing cable to pull new material through walls. If the old stuff is attached to interior wall structure you are screwed.

INTERIOR RUNS are the responsibility of the customer anyhow. The FREE installation provides for surface cabling. So let the new guy do his magic and expect the black cable to be stapled to baseboards. After the dust settles you can connect your system as you want it. Know that signal loss was / is measured in 1000 ft distances and all your interior runs together are probably less than 1000 ft. The cable companies converted to the more efficient RG6 because they had to maintain & amplify hundreds of MILES of cable. Residential drop length was not a significant factor.

Report success,

Joe

 

[TominKY]

OKAY - did some more digging and found this:

I do in fact have two RG6 cables running outside, and also a couple of RG59's. I found that one RG6 is in fact hooked up to the existing satellite dish, and the other connection to the dish is RG 6 coming down from the roof, and then it connnects to one of the RG59 runs going into the closet. They can simply use the one existing run that is all RG6 to the SWM. I found that the second RG6 that goes outside is apparently left over from when they had cable TV or cable internet, because it feeds all the way from outside, through the basement closet, all the way upstairs through the floor next to the entertainment center in the great room - ergo, I could use that run of RG6 for one of the clients. The other client is in the master BR, and I could just use the existing run of RG59 and see if that one works OK. If it turns out that I have to have RG6 for that one too, I think I can use the left over length of RG6 that actually goes around the outside of the house. It runs right past the outside wall of the master BR where the TV is installed, and I could probably drill through the baseboard to the outside if needed and connect out there.

 

[Joe Diamond]

OKAY - did some more digging and found this:

I do in fact have two RG6 cables running outside, and also a couple of RG59's. I found that one RG6 is in fact hooked up to the existing satellite dish, and the other connection to the dish is RG 6 coming down from the roof, and then it connnects to one of the RG59 runs going into the closet. They can simply use the one existing run that is all RG6 to the SWM. I found that the second RG6 that goes outside is apparently left over from when they had cable TV or cable internet, because it feeds all the way from outside, through the basement closet, all the way upstairs through the floor next to the entertainment center in the great room - ergo, I could use that run of RG6 for one of the clients. The other client is in the master BR, and I could just use the existing run of RG59 and see if that one works OK. If it turns out that I have to have RG6 for that one too, I think I can use the left over length of RG6 that actually goes around the outside of the house. It runs right past the outside wall of the master BR where the TV is installed, and I could probably drill through the baseboard to the outside if needed and connect out there.

Now you are getting it.

The wise installer doesn't drill baseboards. To go down....drill the corner moulding at the bottom of the baseboard OR drill the floor. To drill out measure to the height of the center of the existing electric outlets. PUSH the drill through the sheetrock and any exterior insullation. Install a coax wall plate with the cable attached to the inside if the plate. Run a jumper from the outside of the plate to the receiver. Try to do this behind where the TV & receiver are.

Corner moulding or sheetrock are easier to repair than baseboards. Avoid interior electric & pipes.

Joe

 

[texasbrit]

Joe is correct to warn you about existing splitters. Ideally all the runs should be home runs. That's not to say a system can't work if the correct SWM splitter config(using the DirecTV splitters) is used. The total splits in any one line should not exceed eight. So if there is an eight-way splitter on the line from the dish, no more splits allowed. The install I saw at the weekend used one four way splitter, and then two of the outputs from the 4-way were in turn each split though a 2-way. That's fine. Some techs will tell you they regularly use a 2-way splitter after an 8-way, but that creates a 16-way split and that's very "iffy", unless you have a tech who knows how to create a signal loss model for the whole installation

 

[TominKY]

Now you are getting it.

The wise installer doesn't drill baseboards. To go down....drill the corner moulding at the bottom of the baseboard OR drill the floor. To drill out measure to the height of the center of the existing electric outlets. PUSH the drill through the sheetrock and any exterior insullation. Install a coax wall plate with the cable attached to the inside if the plate. Run a jumper from the outside of the plate to the receiver. Try to do this behind where the TV & receiver are.

Corner moulding or sheetrock are easier to repair than baseboards. Avoid interior electric & pipes.

Joe

Joe, the one thing I want to avoid is going straight through the wall to the outside. To do so would take the wire through the vinyl siding above the wood deck that attaches to that portion of the house. The cables actually run below the deck. What I am hoping to do is to drill down at an angle from inside, so that the bit will emerge outside below the level of the deck. The complicating factor is in addition to the wall plate, it will also have to penetrate the header board for the deck. That's a lot of wood to drill through! I do have a couple of extended twist bits that are probably long enough to do this.

 

[TominKY]

Joe is correct to warn you about existing splitters. Ideally all the runs should be home runs. That's not to say a system can't work if the correct SWM splitter config(using the DirecTV splitters) is used. The total splits in any one line should not exceed eight. So if there is an eight-way splitter on the line from the dish, no more splits allowed. The install I saw at the weekend used one four way splitter, and then two of the outputs from the 4-way were in turn each split though a 2-way. That's fine. Some techs will tell you they regularly use a 2-way splitter after an 8-way, but that creates a 16-way split and that's very "iffy", unless you have a tech who knows how to create a signal loss model for the whole installation

No splitters in the runs between the dish and the MWS. However, upstairs there is a splitter that feeds both the family room TV and the wall mounted TV on the covered porch / deck. Would it be possible to split the signal here and feed two clients? If so, would each TV be able to use individual tuners on the Genie, or would they have to be mirrored (i.e., tuned to the same program)?

 

[raoul5788]

Tom, you can get long drill bits from your local HD or Lowes if you don't have a hardware store nearby.

 

[TominKY]

One more question: Since it looks like I may have to abandon many of the RG59 runs that are already there, would I still be able to use these for OTA signals at the same time the TV's are connected to the Genie / clients? My thoughts were to mount an OTA antenna up on the chimney near the dish, and make use of the unused coax from the old dual LNB. I could then split that signal out to the existing RG59 runs up to the TV's in the great room and the master BR, and just hook them into the coax input on each set. Then I could still make use of OTA channels in the event that my satellite becomes disabled due to rain fade or some other problem. Will this work, or is there a neater solution (such as the use of diplexers or something)?

 

[TominKY]

Tom, you can get long drill bits from your local HD or Lowes if you don't have a hardware store nearby.

Thanks Chip. Already have a pretty large assortment, including auger bits. You see, I'm one of those guys who is hard-headed enough to do most all of the house projects on my own.

 

[Joe Diamond]

Joe, the one thing I want to avoid is going straight through the wall to the outside. To do so would take the wire through the vinyl siding above the wood deck that attaches to that portion of the house. The cables actually run below the deck. What I am hoping to do is to drill down at an angle from inside, so that the bit will emerge outside below the level of the deck. The complicating factor is in addition to the wall plate, it will also have to penetrate the header board for the deck. That's a lot of wood to drill through! I do have a couple of extended twist bits that are probably long enough to do this.

The long bit will work. I'd go through the corner molding on the floor. You will know it if you find nails or spikes!

OR,,,,,,,There is a tool that will allow you to pry the siding open one run horizontally at a time. IF this will fit your work, you open the siding on the other side of the wall where the hole will emerge and drill...then run the cable inside the siding. Only take off one or less siding pieces at a time. Pop material back in as you work. When you arrive where you want to go up or down insert a fish wire behind the siding and pull the cable.
DO NOT try this if the siding is old and or is on the south side of the building. Very old siding will break into large pieces. The cure is to replace the whole facade.

Joe

 

[TominKY]

Anybody have any insight on my question about the splitter?

 

[TominKY]

OK, I think I answered my own question after much digging on google. It looks like I can use a 2-way SWM splitter on the coax in my family room to run two clients off that run as long as I use a 4-way SWM splitter instead of an 8 way. Is that correct?

 

[texasbrit]

OK, I think I answered my own question after much digging on google. It looks like I can use a 2-way SWM splitter on the coax in my family room to run two clients off that run as long as I use a 4-way SWM splitter instead of an 8 way. Is that correct?

Yes, that will work fine. As I said in my previous post, as long as you keep at an 8-way split or less, you are OK.

 

[TominKY]

Yes, that will work fine. As I said in my previous post, as long as you keep at an 8-way split or less, you are OK.

texasbrit, now that I look back at the post you put up, you did indeed answer my question. I just assumed that the clients would have to use home-run connections to the SWM in order to operate independently. Apparently that is not the case. I'm not electronically "gifted" enough to know why that is the case, but I have to assume it is similar to OTA or cable signals being carried over the coax to separate tuners.

Thanks again to all who have responded. Hopefully tomorrow I will finally be able to get this install done!