Is Sony pulling a fast one?

[T2k]

I agree with SatinKzo on lower intial cost for a piece of the resell pie. This would generate alot of income and just might increase intial sales of a particular title.

Tk2, The distribution channels for food is not much differant then software. We are talking about end users (the consumer) reselling games back to the retailer (EB ad the like) allowing said retailer to resell game at a lower cost keeping the entire profit and shorting first release sales.

Jeez, it happens to be Eb - they could sell it to their buddies just as well.

Now explain to me how after you eat that potatoe (what else are you going to be using a potatoe for?) are you going to resell that potatoe? Well , I am waiting?

It's not after you ate it - it's after you have USED something. Bicycle, umbrella, car, vide game or even rubber bone for your dog. This idea of original producer should be given a percentage from EVERY resale goes straight against the whole idea of the economy the world is based on.
This would be the world's MOST COUNTERPRODUCTIVE measure, the worst thing could happen to us.

 

[T2k]

What about cars? Cars are a closer example that potatos. By selling used cars, the used car dealers are cutting into the sales of new cars. If only new cars were allowed to be sold, and used cars were required to be kept by their original owners or demolished, then Ford and GM would not be in trouble right now.

JEsus, this would be the end of the supply and demand economy as we know it and probably bring an uprising.

 

[ronjohn]

JEsus, this would be the end of the supply and demand economy as we know it and probably bring an uprising.

I wasn't being serious, just trying to push JoeSP's argument to the edge.

Joe seems to be arguing in line with the assertions of the content providers that they are selling a non-transferable license to use the video game or software product to one person, not a physical copy of the software. Their own practices don't agree with this. I don't know of any video games that offer inexpensive physical media replacements for people who purchased a valid license. If your copy is lost or damaged, the only solution is to purchase a new retail physical copy with a new "license". A lot of corporate software licenses are treated this way. You can even get new physical copies of registered corporate licensed operating systems for much less than the license price. Some even for free. I have not seen video games that will send you a new DVD copy for production and shipping costs if you purchased a license. It is only a "license" when that benefits the provider. It is not a "license" when that would benefit the user.

 

[ronjohn]

Guys, This is piracy in its most blatant form. I can understand not wanting to pay $60 for a game. However, the process of being able to buy back the game and then resell the game while keeping all the profit is a form of piracy. All programming houses will flock to the PS3 if they find a way to prevent this from happening. Don't worry, if Microsoft has not been able to do this neither will Sony!

Simple way to solve this type of loss is to have companies doing this type of business pay a fee to the game developers every time they resell one of their titles. Don't see this happening -- so I see developers trying to find ways to do this.

The used market came about because of the magnetude of games and money involved in the gaming market. Developers are loosing millions and millions of dollars over this and they would not be unhappy if Sony found a way of making their games unresellable. I don't see this happening either.

In another post I pointed out the Sony has made DVD watching a hassle. I am a technical person, but updating the firmware on a DVD player just because Sony changed their copy protection is a pain. I know that the people illegally copying the DVDs have fixes faster than the player manufacturers. A nontechnical person probably can't even update their firmware, so CANNOT watch the stupid DVD. Sony spends a ton of money and hassles honest people with little effect on the illegals.

If Sony makes renting or reselling games a hassle, and it is not a hassle with XBOX, Microsoft will have a huge advantage with consumers. Developers may prefer Nazi tactics, but they will go where the people and the money go, not to the system they prefer.

 

[damaged]

In another post I pointed out the Sony has made DVD watching a hassle. I am a technical person, but updating the firmware on a DVD player just because Sony changed their copy protection is a pain. I know that the people illegally copying the DVDs have fixes faster than the player manufacturers. A nontechnical person probably can't even update their firmware, so CANNOT watch the stupid DVD. Sony spends a ton of money and hassles honest people with little effect on the illegals.

If Sony makes renting or reselling games a hassle, and it is not a hassle with XBOX, Microsoft will have a huge advantage with consumers. Developers may prefer Nazi tactics, but they will go where the people and the money go, not to the system they prefer.

Yea, and updating firmware, while not a huge deal for techies, it _can be_ when something happens like you lose poser while _having_ to do it, and your nice new dvd-ram drive is now a paper weight, and do you think they going to pay for that? No. :\

 

[SatinKzo]

Yea, and updating firmware, while not a huge deal for techies, it _can be_ when something happens like you lose poser while _having_ to do it, and your nice new dvd-ram drive is now a paper weight, and do you think they going to pay for that? No. :\

That's why you use a UPS. Even if you don't there are many ways to recover a bricked drive.

As for firmware on my home DVD players, it's not hard to update the firmware, just a PITA most times. I removed all the crap on my LG and philips that checks for most of it and using various software I have not met a DVD I cannot rip and watch off a RW when my LG and philips does give me problems with the original disc.

Note I say RW disc. I do not keep copies of the discs... I just want to be able to watch them without hassles.

 

[LASooner]

Speaking as an artist at a large game developer, I'd like to know why you think we don't deserve every penny we put into those games? Unlike movies, video games have a shelf life of only a couple years at best, and that's if they are a blockbuster. Yet our budgets are now close to being on par with the film industry, I know, because I worked there too. I know everyone would love all entertainment to be free, but I got bills to pay, mouths to feed, and this is my business.

Copy protection is a pain in the ass, but so are keylocks, macrovision, pin codes and security systems, because as long as there are theives out there, they are needed. The honor system just ain't working anymore.

Justify it all you want, you are literally stealing money out of my pocket and everyone who works with me because the incentive for working in this business is royalties and stocks, both of which are affected by the second hand market, mod chips and other forms of "sharing".

 

[damaged]

Speaking as an artist at a large game developer, I'd like to know why you think we don't deserve every penny we put into those games? Unlike movies, video games have a shelf life of only a couple years at best, and that's if they are a blockbuster. Yet our budgets are now close to being on par with the film industry, I know, because I worked there too. I know everyone would love all entertainment to be free, but I got bills to pay, mouths to feed, and this is my business.

Copy protection is a pain in the ass, but so are keylocks, macrovision, pin codes and security systems, because as long as there are theives out there, they are needed. The honor system just ain't working anymore.

Justify it all you want, you are literally stealing money out of my pocket and everyone who works with me because the incentive for working in this business is royalties and stocks, both of which are affected by the second hand market, mod chips and other forms of "sharing".

That would be a valid point, and yes, you deserve every penny, except that the ones who are doing the stealing en masse (repackaged pirate copies), are defeating all these technologies with ease, and in the end, only the honest user who bought the product and wants to make a working backup copy gets punished, and guess whos money these companies use to pay for these useless anticopying tools, YOU the artist and US the consumer, this copy protection only keep honest people honest, if you actually think these protections will stop professional pirates, then you have fallen for the hype, it won't, so here you are pissing off your prospective customers with silly media locks, meanwhile, the real pirates get away scott free without harldy any effort.

It seems to me, you as artists or programmers, need to get these companies to stop wasting your monies on anticopy technologies that have proven time and time again that they DO NOT WORK. There are consumers who are getting tired of being treated like criminals, perhaps THAT is why these industries are seeing profit losses, you are alienating the honest PAYING users.

Fine, you may have lost money, but it's hard for me to empathize with you, when I have to buy a new copy of the latest game because I can't make a backup copy, or when Sony installs rootkits on my computer without a way to remove or detect them. and opening holes in the 'security', sorry, you'll get no river of tears from me.

 

[VIPERS-PIT]

Speaking as an artist at a large game developer, I'd like to know why you think we don't deserve every penny we put into those games? Unlike movies, video games have a shelf life of only a couple years at best, and that's if they are a blockbuster. Yet our budgets are now close to being on par with the film industry, I know, because I worked there too. I know everyone would love all entertainment to be free, but I got bills to pay, mouths to feed, and this is my business.

Copy protection is a pain in the ass, but so are keylocks, macrovision, pin codes and security systems, because as long as there are thieves out there, they are needed. The honor system just ain't working anymore.

Justify it all you want, you are literally stealing money out of my pocket and everyone who works with me because the incentive for working in this business is royalties and stocks, both of which are affected by the second hand market, mod chips and other forms of "sharing".

Having several hacker friends overseas, I can tell you they break whatever code you put out in a matter of hours. Ever hear of DVD X COPY? It still works! And has added the ability to copy power point to DVD. So Marcrovision is worthless.

And all the xbox and xbox 360 games are on HDD for free distribution over the net. You can do nothing to stop this so you want to stop someone from buying a game/movie legally from selling it again legally after they watched it? If that is the case you better start looking for a new job to feed your family because people who do buy your software will STOP buying it.

I will not pay over 20 bucks for ANY game!!! EVER. Make it so the disk is locked to the player and I will buy neither, and there are 50+ people in the area that come to me for advice before buying anything electronic. I will tell them to stay away from the new stuff like its the plague.

You have the right to a FAIR profit. If your games are that costly to make, Either launch them PPV of on arcade versions first like you used to. Or let the cgi take over 100%.

 

[LASooner]

The developers don't make the copy protection, they license it so the cost to the developer is small percentage. The video game industry is not ignorant, they know there is no fool proof way of stopping people, but why would you unlock your door and let anyone come in and take your stuff without effort? I'm not a fan of methods not thoroughly tested that cause me, as an end user, problems with running a game. But that truly is a PC only problem at this point. We make console games only, so rootkits aren't our domain, and not the point here. consoles tend to be media protection.

In one breathe you're saying it's easy to copy, and the next you say you can't make a backup... well which is it? Btw, a lot of companies will ship you a backup disc if you show proof of purchase and pay for the price of the media and shipping. If you mistakenly destroy your software how is that any different than if you crash your car. Honda ain't gonna give you a new Civic if you wrap it around a tree. And insurance isn't free.

If someone has a problem with the price of games, perhaps they need to find a hobby they can afford. It is not owed to you. Using that as an excuse for modding out a system for downloading copyrighted software without paying for it, is merely an attempt to tell themselves they aren't stealing. They're sticking it to "the Man". Well the man is 22-35 years old guys and girls who spend a lot of nights away from their families to create that piece of work just taken.

I would guess most people who do this can't empathize because they never had anyone steal money from them and brag about how easy it is to do and how it's not wrong because they don't like how we're trying to protect our work. If it weren't a problem then it wouldn't be necessary to devise protection schemes. Look at how many "honest" consumers download MP3's off the internet because they're "free." As for large scale pirates, that's what SCA enforcement is for.

As an aside and bringing it back to the original topic, I find it funny that people are comdemning a game system they've never seen and really don't know anything about except for some vague articles. Our game is next-gen only and XB360 is our lowest spec target platform. The Wii is not next gen it's a gamecube with more memory and a faster processor. So it's not too hard to figure out who the big dog is.

 

[damaged]

In one breathe you're saying it's easy to copy, and the next you say you can't make a backup... well which is it?

Nice try, but as you well know, doing so is against the law, as it requires one to bypass the copy protection, so if I did make a honest copy, by using tools made to bypass (crack), those protections, I just became a criminal. As a coder you never heard about the DMCA?? Are you suggesting we break the law??? Obey the law or break it, well, which is it??

 

[damaged]

If someone has a problem with the price of games, perhaps they need to find a hobby they can afford.

If artists and coders cannot keep up with todays technology, respect the honest customers needs, and still make a living, perhaps they need to find a new career they can profit in.

 

[LASooner]

If your sole purpose for copying a piece of software is truly for backup purposes, why do you fear the provisions on the DMCA? You'd be hard pressed to find anyone willing to prosecute someone who only had one backup of each piece of software they legally own.

I noticed you ommitted the part where I mentioned you can purchase backup copies for the price of media and shipping.

Honest users have nothing to worry about if the software passed QA.

But whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[damaged]

If your sole purpose for copying a piece of software is truly for backup purposes, why do you fear the provisions on the DMCA?

Well if you are so ok with allowing me to make backups AND you KNOW the anticopying measures do not work, why bother putting the copy protection on in the first place?

This is not about fear, it is about treating us like criminals, then if we do make an honest backup, we actually BECOME criminals, regardless of if one were to get caught or not, it FORCED us to break the law when we should not have to, sure the cops won't be breaking my doors down for a honest copy, but the knowledge of being thought of as a 'criminal' still exists, an honest, paying user, who puts food on YOUR plate, should NOT be made to feel like a criminal, if you think otherwise, why should we care about your issues? Maybe _you_ are OK with breaking the law and never getting caught, but some of us have scruples.

Yes, it's almost 1am here, frankly I did not want to address every tidbit, but let's be fair, you never addressed many of my points either, that being the case, aren't you being a tad hypocritical in that regard?

And no, I don't care that I can get a copy for shipping + media cost, I already bought the game/cd/dvd, why should I be FORCED to give another penny to you guys for backup copies?, I'd prefer to buy my own media, locally, where I dictate the price and media quality, thank you very much.

 

[LASooner]

Because you don't own the software, you own the right to use that one copy on one system.

The provisions of the DMCA allow for exceptions to circumvention, so if it's truly that important to you to back up every optical disc you have, then become a library that can legally backup said work in good faith.

You'll do what you do, and I'll continue to make a living at what I do in a manner dictated by the demands of the market while protecting my best interests. There's plenty of other options out there for you. But don't kid yourself, the game industry isn't going anywhere if you leave.

 

[damaged]

But don't kid yourself, the game industry isn't going anywhere if you leave.

Fair enough, but that statement is a two-way street .

No hard feelings, nice conversation, good luck with things.

 

[LASooner]

same to you.

 

[VIPERS-PIT]

I back up all the movies I buy my son on DVD using DVD x copy and it is 100% legal to make a back up copy of any movie game or piece of software for free.

I bought the software and doing so also bought the right to modify it in anyway I see fit.

My complaint is with companies removing my right to buy a game and if I don't like it or get tired of it (lets face it 90% of the games being put out are total trash) not letting me trade it in or sell it to someone or even give it to a family member because they "married" it to my machine. They have the right to make these restrictions and we have the right to NOT support the industry for doing it.

I started with the pong game and have owned every system up until now. I have bought over 400 games in that time.

I can afford more than 20 bucks a game. They are simply not WORTH more to me. I have a 12 year old daughter and 5 year old son and between the two they have 8 game systems. I will spend up to 30 bucks on a game for them, but not for me. I have over 500 DVD movies and 100 laser disks plus 10 grand plus in my HT set up, so cost is not a issue at all, It is a matter of value for money spent and 20 bucks is the limit.

If NFL TK5 was put out for 20 bucks and kicked the crap out of madden for 50, how can anyone justify spending 50 bucks? And EA lost any money from me EVER again buying out the rights to the NFL contract. I guess if you cant beat them (or in theirs case, be in the same ballpark) out spend them with the extra 40 bucks in pure profit you made off each copy of your game last year.

The TK5 serious proved to EVERYONE that the cost of video games is hugely overpriced. Why were they able to make better games for 20 bucks when the others make CRAP for $50 and now $60? Maybe they need to look at the quality of what they are putting out and not the quantity.

If they set the price at 50 bucks I might update every 3-4 years instead of every year at the 20 dollar price point. Who makes more money in the long run?

 

[JoeSp]

The cost of production of a video title is not $1000 but in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. New technology and the demand by game buyers of bigger games, better video and sound, more options, expandability, now even of on-line play is really driving up the cost of video games. Some older games are better then the newer ones. Some aren't. The consumer decides.

As for resell of software, a title sells for $50 gets bought back for $25 and resells for $40. Every title resold cuts out the software house, takes money out of their pockets. Why, because that resale circumvents the sale of a new product. You folks need to take a look at the near future and the automobile market is a very good example.

Back in the 70's you had to buy a car. Lease programs were not around. Then came the 80's and everyone had lease programs. Auto makers profits florished -- or did they? Profits started shrinking and the price of new cars started rising. My first new car cost $4300 in 1974. I just paid $38000 for my last new car last year. What happened?

Leasing happened. People stopped buying new and most leased. When those leased cars came back in the dealers owned those cars and had to do something with the dead weight. In the early ninties market analyst predicted that the US auto market was heading for dire straights if the bulk of their product continued to be leased and not purchased.

Now it is 2006 and GM is in trouble and no one knows if there will be a GM two years from now. Ford is heading down the same street -- they have been losing tons of money for the last few years. Chrysler was purchased by Mercedes. Analysts hope Toyota will buy GM and save them. What the heck has happened? The lease market and the growing used car market has a strangle hold on the new car market and the future is not bright.

I see the video game market going in the same direction and maybe that is why more games are going online and offering you 'extras' for a price. That is the only way to circumvent the resell market. Once the particular piece of software has been upgraded you might not be able to resale that piece of software and the new buyer be able to purchase the 'extras'. This might be what Sony has in mind.

 

[ronjohn]

I think you are mistaken about leasing killing the car makers. Toyota and Honda are not having any problems right now. Ford and GM are. It is not the market, it is Ford and GM's place in the market. Used cars only stay in the market for a certain period. You don't see 1970s or 1980s model cars for sell at any respectable dealers.(Except for exotics)

I have also read analysis(good or bad I don't know) that suggested that the used game market kept a flow of money going into the game industry. One kid sells his $50 game for $25, adds $25 and buys another. If he cannot sell his game for $25 he will wait longer to get the second game, and the person who paid $35-$40 just will not buy a game at all.

As for Sony marrying the game to the PS3 unit, what happens if the unit breaks? Do I then have to replace my $500-$600 unit and all of the $60 games I purchased? According to the patent the games would not work with my replacement console, so they will be useless. I believe that there would have to be some system to account for this, but I am also sure that the hackers will be able to bypass this technology quickly, and honest people will be totally screwed over. That is my whole problem with copy protection, the cheaters still cheat, but the honest people are hastled to no end.

In one breathe you're saying it's easy to copy, and the next you say you can't make a backup... well which is it? Btw, a lot of companies will ship you a backup disc if you show proof of purchase and pay for the price of the media and shipping. If you mistakenly destroy your software how is that any different than if you crash your car. Honda ain't gonna give you a new Civic if you wrap it around a tree. And insurance isn't free.

In one breath the game industry says they are selling us a "License" for the software(The ability to get from one place to another), not a physical copy(new Civic). If you are selling me the right to use the software, the replacement should be the minimum cost of producing a physical copy. You say that you can get backup copies for cost of printing and shipping, but for retail software products, that has not been my experience.