Is USALS compensation possible - off ~2 degrees? (1 Viewer)

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cebu22

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 18, 2004
51
0
Hi,
I am capable of tracking the arc with my motorized setup. However, when I use USALS I'm approximately 2 degrees off. For example, if I want to blind scan a satellite at 87 w I would set USALS on and scan 89W. Is there any setting I can change on my Coolsat 7100 to correct the 2 degree offset I'm experiencing? I don't want to use DiSEqC.

Thanks
 
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putney

SatelliteGuys Pro
Aug 12, 2009
854
6
St Louis, missouri
You need to reset YOUR location. It is the reference point.

Not sure where it is on a 7100, I'm sure others will chime in if you have trouble finding it.
 

gmd63

SatelliteGuys Pro
Sep 3, 2007
205
0
Quick fix so you don't have to go and play with the dish, is to go into your Lat and Long settings, and change it from what it is"supposed to be", to just a bit off of what the correct settings should be.
Play a bit with the numbers till you get your best reading.

Not the correct way it should be done, but a quick fix so you don't have to go and monkey with the dish and motor.:eek:
 

crackt

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 24, 2007
1,000
1
101w up north.
if you send the motor to its reference point and go and physically look at the rotation scale, is it at zero ? i had an sg2100 that was 2 degrees east from factory. i reset its reference point and it worked as advertised. you could also set your location to compensate either east or west by 2 degrees.

crackt out,.
 

Lak7

SatelliteGuys Master
Pub Member / Supporter
Feb 28, 2008
5,451
7
Near Chicago, Illinois
If 70west is you true south, does 72west come in properly using USALS?
Then Check something farther west, like 101 west. Is that also 2 degrees off?
 

Babadem

SatelliteGuys Pro
May 21, 2007
2,294
163
MA
Quick fix so you don't have to go and play with the dish, is to go into your Lat and Long settings, and change it from what it is"supposed to be", to just a bit off of what the correct settings should be.
Play a bit with the numbers till you get your best reading.

Not the correct way it should be done, but a quick fix so you don't have to go and monkey with the dish and motor.:eek:

That's exactly what I have done since it became very cold and the wind moved my dish. My Longitude is supposed to be 71.0°W, (so far I have not adjusted my Latitude setting) so I made it 70.5°W to compensate. Until it gets warm, and short of climbing the ladder and freezing off my behind in the cold, I will keeping making the adjustment(s) from my receiver until it get warm or I can't compensate for it any more.
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
I am capable of tracking the arc with my motorized setup. However, when I use USALS I'm approximately 2 degrees off. For example, if I want to blind scan a satellite at 87 w I would set USALS on and scan 89W. Is there any setting I can change on my Coolsat 7100 to correct the 2 degree offset I'm experiencing? I don't want to use DiSEqC.

What is your True South Sat, and is that also 2 degrees off?

My true south if i remember correctly is 70 W

If 70west is you true south, does 72west come in properly using USALS? Then Check something farther west, like 101 west. Is that also 2 degrees off?

What Lak is elluding to is, if you are offset the same number of degrees throughout the entire arc - for every satellite, then your error is at least uniform and linear.

If this is the case, then your dish is not properly aligned in the azimuth angle (it appears that your dish is pointed two degrees too far to the EAST). The proper method to correct this would be to get out to the dish and turn the whole assembly two degrees to the WEST.

However, if your weather is bad and you don't wish to get on the roof or out in the cold, an easy fix at this time would be to go into USALS and change your LONGITUDE coordinate from "70.0" degrees to "68.0" degrees. This will force all USALS calculation results to move the motor and dish two degrees further WEST.

This would be the "band-aid" repair method and when warmer weather returns, you should correct this by mechanically rotating your motor on the mast two degrees further to the west and then resetting your longitude coordinate to the proper setting.

You want your dish and motor alignments to be PERFECT, then you can hook up any FTA receiver to it and enter your site coordinates (latitude and longitude) and you can use USALS and be spot on everytime, regardless of the receiver you connect.

RADAR
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
2,029
1
Western Maine
What Lak is elluding to is, if you are offset the same number of degrees throughout the entire arc - for every satellite, then your error is at least uniform and linear.

If this is the case, then your dish is not properly aligned in the azimuth angle (it appears that your dish is pointed two degrees too far to the EAST). The proper method to correct this would be to get out to the dish and turn the whole assembly two degrees to the WEST.
Actually, I would have said the exact opposite. If the offset is the same across the arc (this happened to me a couple times), then it generally means that your alignment is OK, but that your motor's zero position is off, which relates to the question above by crakct, about does the motor actually go to zero when you send it to reference. If this is the case, you can either lie to the receiver about your longitude, which is what he did I think, OR, you can do a hard reset on the motor, which usually requires you to manually move the dish to it's zero position, then go up to the dish, and push buttons to reset the dish to set that position as the reference (at least that's the way it's done on my SG2100). For me, that fixed USALS across the arc. Had nothing to do with alignment or the azimuth aim of the mount. In my opinion, it's when the offset is different across the arc that you probably have an alignment issue. Same offset across the arc, is out of sync, not alignment.
 

crackt

SatelliteGuys Pro
Feb 24, 2007
1,000
1
101w up north.
some more questions... what type of motor are you using ? and when you say that your alignment is off by 2 degrees is it the same throughout the arc. for example if 87w is at 89w is something on the other side of the arc 2 degrees west of itself also ? like 63w at 65w ? some motors ive used came from the factory with the 0 degree reference point set incorrectly. no matter how hard you try and tweak a motor with a bad reference point you will never dial it in properly. its the first thing i check when i install a motor now. technically if the reference point is set at say + or - 2 degrees then your dish will need to be tweaked some after it is reset to 0. also what reciever are you using ? some recievers dont have the best usals implentation and all the dish tweaking in the world and you will still see usals issues.

crackt out,.
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
"Actually, I would have said the exact opposite. If the offset is the same across the arc, then it generally means that your alignment is OK, but that your motor's zero position is off."

....

"If this is the case, you can either lie to the receiver about your longitude, which is what he did I think, OR, you can do a hard reset on the motor, which usually requires you to manually move the dish to it's zero position, then go up to the dish, and push buttons to reset the dish to set that position as the reference (at least that's the way it's done on my SG2100). For me, that fixed USALS across the arc. Had nothing to do with alignment or the azimuth aim of the mount. In my opinion, it's when the offset is different across the arc that you probably have an alignment issue. Same offset across the arc, is out of sync, not alignment."

B.J.

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense as you describe it, but I have never had any of my tested or installed motors do this to me. It would be a simple fix if this were the case. Then you would merely be required to reset the HOME position on the motor or reset the motor so that it reverts to factory defaults.

I have to stick by my first observation and initial gut instinct in this case. I mean, without seeing the response first hand and in person. I believe that it would be more common and more logical that the "physical" azimuth is offset.

I also will place bets that Cebu is not tracking the arc entirely, as he states. I bet that he is aimed too low on the west end of the arc and too high on the east end of the arc.

I will gladly eat my words and be humbled if I am wrong, but I think we need more information first. We need more explicit test results to be able to confirm and isolate the problem and properly identify the error.

RADAR
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
2,029
1
Western Maine
B.J.

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense as you describe it, but I have never had any of my tested or installed motors do this to me. It would be a simple fix if this were the case. Then you would merely be required to reset the HOME position on the motor or reset the motor so that it reverts to factory defaults.

I have to stick by my first observation and initial gut instinct in this case. I mean, without seeing the response first hand and in person. I believe that it would be more common and more logical that the "physical" azimuth is offset.

I also will place bets that Cebu is not tracking the arc entirely, as he states. I bet that he is aimed too low on the west end of the arc and too high on the east end of the arc.

I will gladly eat my words and be humbled if I am wrong, but I think we need more information first. We need more explicit test results to be able to confirm and isolate the problem and properly identify the error.

RADAR

If the azimuth of the mount on the pole were off by 2 deg, I doubt that he'd be able to receive more than 4 or 5 sats near the top of the arc. Like you say, he'd have to raise or lower the dish to get the east or west sats, and there would be no way of getting to any of the extreme sats by using the motor. If you can get good reception across the arc using the motor, it pretty much suggests the alignment is pretty good, but the mount is out of sync.
Of course, it could be a combination of out of alignment and the motor being out of sync, and like what I think crackt was suggesting, if the dish was aligned with the motor zero being off, it would probably mean that this has caused a bit of mis-alignment, but I think it's pretty certain that you can't explain a 2 deg across the board shift by azimuth of the mount on the pole.
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
If the azimuth of the mount on the pole were off by 2 deg, I doubt that he'd be able to receive more than 4 or 5 sats near the top of the arc. Like you say, he'd have to raise or lower the dish to get the east or west sats, and there would be no way of getting to any of the extreme sats by using the motor. If you can get good reception across the arc using the motor, it pretty much suggests the alignment is pretty good, but the mount is out of sync.
Of course, it could be a combination of out of alignment and the motor being out of sync, and like what I think crackt was suggesting, if the dish was aligned with the motor zero being off, it would probably mean that this has caused a bit of mis-alignment, but I think it's pretty certain that you can't explain a 2 deg across the board shift by azimuth of the mount on the pole.

B.J.

I definitely agree with you. Since he would not be able to track the arc if his dish was offset in the azimuth this far (2 degrees). But, I am thinking that he isn't following the arc as well as he is elluding. I would need to know if 125W and 30W are on track just the same as 70 and 72 W.


I don't have enough data to prove my point or disprove yours at this time, so you and I would be arguing over a speculation and an assumption. We need more information and it would be best if we could see it first hand.

My recommendation would be to follow your advice first (reset the motor zero position and test again) because that means no physical adjustemnt to the dish or motor alignment. If he still has problems after following your instructions, then I maintain that his dish is just a bit too far east.

I recommend tryig B.J.'s suggestion first. If it is still off by nearly two degees, then reflect on my suggestion. B.J.'s recommendation is quicker and more simple to test and correct for if he is right. But if it does not fix the problem, then you must fall back on my assumption as a last resort.

Test B.J.'s idea first, then reply back with your results.

RADAR
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
2,029
1
Western Maine
..... But, I am thinking that he isn't following the arc as well as he is elluding. .....

I think that's probably true of most of us. I know I'm not perfectly aligned, mainly because the darn meters on the receivers aren't sensitive enough to tell us if we're improving the signal or not, and the portable meters respond to everything. It was sure easier to align things back in the analog days, when the meters were both sensitive and specific to one transponder, rather than the whole band.
 

AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
I think that's probably true of most of us. I know I'm not perfectly aligned, mainly because the darn meters on the receivers aren't sensitive enough to tell us if we're improving the signal or not, and the portable meters respond to everything. It was sure easier to align things back in the analog days, when the meters were both sensitive and specific to one transponder, rather than the whole band.

B.J.

You got that nailed pretty darned right! I certainly trust my Coolsat 5000 meter, you just can't go wrong with the 5K for DVB-S signals. The meter (although fr some it may not be perfect) at least is quick to respond.

I bought a Super Buddy meter from Applied Instruments several years ago. I wanted it to help me align and monitor the signal from my WildBlue satellite internet dish. Now I find it more and more useful for FTA concerns. What I thought was once a toy and a luxury has become a necessity.

RADAR
 

B.J.

SatelliteGuys Pro
Oct 15, 2008
2,029
1
Western Maine
...
I bought a Super Buddy meter from Applied Instruments several years ago. I wanted it to help me align and monitor the signal from my WildBlue satellite internet dish. Now I find it more and more useful for FTA concerns. What I thought was once a toy and a luxury has become a necessity.

RADAR

My favorite meter WAS my Channel Master, because it has a voltmeter, amp-meter, a 22khz indicator, however like the other consumer meters, it responds to both the regular ku band and the DBS band, so if I'm anywhere near a DBS sat, it goes crazy, often to the case that the meter actually gives minimum readings when on a regular Ku sat. The problem with the Channel Master is that it won't work unless the battery is charged, and it won't work if you overcharge the battery, so I usually have to partially charge it up before using it. The 22KHz indicator and the volt/amp meters are very handy though.
I recently purcased a newer version of the cheap SF95 meter, which has the 22khz indicator like the Channel Master, and it doesn't require a battery.


However, real reason for replying is to ask how you use a meter with the WildBlue. I have Wild Blue too, and I was unsure about whether a regular meter could be used with them while it was transmitting. Ie do you disconnect the transmit line before using the meter? I was watching the guy install the thing, and I noticed that he put some device between the meter and the LNB. I thought perhaps it might be some kind of filter to keep out any signal from the transmit side, but I wasn't sure. I wish I could get access to the web page that the installers use to check your signal quality.

Also related, I had a HughesNet system installed at our town office, and THAT installation looked like a magic show. I don't have a clue about what the heck that guy was doing. While aiming the thing, he had some half moon shaped gadget that he put over the face of the lnb, which blocked the left or right side of the view of the lnb. He was switching this back and forth, looking at his meter, making adjustments, etc. I thought that perhaps he was blocking the transmitter, but he said no, and gave me some magic explanation that made no sense to me. I can't imagine what good it does to block the left or right side of the dish view would do. Anyone have any clue??
 
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AcWxRadar

SatelliteGuys Pro
Apr 26, 2006
4,575
4
40 miles NW of Omaha. Omaha?
However, real reason for replying is to ask how you use a meter with the WildBlue. I have Wild Blue too, and I was unsure about whether a regular meter could be used with them while it was transmitting. Ie do you disconnect the transmit line before using the meter? I was watching the guy install the thing, and I noticed that he put some device between the meter and the LNB. I thought perhaps it might be some kind of filter to keep out any signal from the transmit side, but I wasn't sure. I wish I could get access to the web page that the installers use to check your signal quality.

For the WildBlue, I first had to take the feedhorn off the TRIA and position it 90° offset to make it receive the opposite polarity (my SuperBuddy wasn't programmed for the new transponders on 111.1° yet). There wasn't any allocations left for me to use on the older beams and WildBlue was going to assign me to the new, opposite polarity beams. The SuperBuddy had the older beams listed, so I had to cheat a little here in order to use the SuperBuddy.

After doing that, I connected the modem to the TRANSMIT port and the SuperBuddy on the RECEIVE port of the TRIA and aligned the dish to the satellite. I just had to select the beam for my area and dial the dish in to peak the signal.

Then I set the feedhorn back to its original position and went about setting up the modem and PC, which I did through the assistance of a WildBlue rep over the phone.

I eventually bought a "BlueBunny" adapter that allows you to connect the SuperBuddy to the TRANSMIT side via the adapter to power the TRIA, but the meter still connects to the RECEIVE port.

I think with the updated file for the SuperBuddy (which should have the new WildBlue TPs and polarities entered) that I can place the SuperBuddy in the receive line and monitor my signal while I am using it. But, I haven't tried this yet.

You can find all the information and how-to's for this on Applied Instruments web site. Check it out sometime, they have some really cool stuff there, beyond just the meters and signal analyzers.

I must have done pretty good with my WildBlue installation since it has been working flawlessly since the spring of 2006.

RADAR
 
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