MPEG4 HD DVR and Home Media Center news:

[Brewer4]

There is a physical constraint to internet over sat. There is latency that can not be improved (home to sat, sat to earth, earth to internet). So VOIP and gaming has a tough time over sat. I had Directpc and Starband and it was definately better than dial up at the time, but even with cranked bandwidth, I would not want to leave my DSL at lower speeds because of the latency issue. And at 20 bucks a month, I am never switching. So unfortunately, the sats may have the physical ability to deliver internet, they can not handle the full bundle (VOIP, Internet limitations,etc.) the customer would demand so they are at disadvantage. It may niche them, but right now, D* has got to focus on delivering tons of HD content and interactive features. If they cant differentiate themselves on available HD content, they are going to lose to the bundles (Cable and eventually telcos).

 

[JosephB]

they know they can't make money on internet access, thats why they dumped the whole spaceway deal. why would they spend all that money on specialized 'internet ready' sateliltes (they do stateful packet filtering/routing/etc instead of being a dumb packet mirror in the sky) only to dump their internet plans only to ressurect them? With wildblue launching there is yet another player in the field, and there is a VERY limited number of customers. No one who has access to cable or DSL would get satellite if they are halfway intelligent. More and more people are getting cable and DSL every day, so DirecTV's possible internet base keeps getting smaller and smaller.

And you keep saying DirecTV could just "launch a new satellite" to cover everyone's upload. One satellite at one orbital slot could not handle 15 million uplinks, even with spotbeams. They just would not have enough spectrum for every dish to uplink at the same time, bandwidth notwithstanding. It doesn't matter how much bandwidth the bird can do (which I believe it wouldn't be able to handle it) but they would have to be licensed to use that much uplink frequencies which I don't think they could get (not enough frequencies available for license)

 

[k2ue]

There is a physical constraint to internet over sat. There is latency that can not be improved (home to sat, sat to earth, earth to internet). So VOIP and gaming has a tough time over sat. I had Directpc and Starband and it was definately better than dial up at the time, but even with cranked bandwidth, I would not want to leave my DSL at lower speeds because of the latency issue. And at 20 bucks a month, I am never switching. So unfortunately, the sats may have the physical ability to deliver internet, they can not handle the full bundle (VOIP, Internet limitations,etc.) the customer would demand so they are at disadvantage. It may niche them, but right now, D* has got to focus on delivering tons of HD content and interactive features. If they cant differentiate themselves on available HD content, they are going to lose to the bundles (Cable and eventually telcos).

LonghornXP doesn't seem to understand that clever engineering cannot overcome time latency -- it is fundamental in the 44,600 mile round trip to the satellite, and the reason that fiber quickly displaced satellite for telephone use -- voice conversation is very difficult with the 1/4 second delay, and typical internet latency is a tenth of that. Satellite internet is better than none -- but worse than any type of terrestrial broadband, severely limiting its marketability.

 

[tibber]

Ok, time to ease off. Longhorn's insights have been very helpful and he has already stated he's not a rocket scientist. He is a good member of the community sharing what he can like the rest of us.

Longhorn, K2ue, Brewer, Joseph, and everyone else: Keep up the good work!

Tom

 

[peterl1365]

Ok, time to ease off. Longhorn's insights have been very helpful and he has already stated he's not a rocket scientist. He is a good member of the community sharing what he can like the rest of us.

Longhorn, K2ue, Brewer, Joseph, and everyone else: Keep up the good work!

Tom

Agreed. Also, keep in mind that D*, like any large corporation, probably has lots and lots of "plans" for the future. Some of them are feasible, others may may rely on some "future technology" that may never come to pass. A lot of projects get canceled before reaching the deployment stage. That's the nature of running a technology-based business.

LonghornXP is passing on what he is hearing. It's not his fault if some of those things are wrong. I don't mind the rumors. I'm just smart enough not to make any important decisions based on rumors.

 

[k2ue]

Agreed. Also, keep in mind that D*, like any large corporation, probably has lots and lots of "plans" for the future. Some of them are feasible, others may may rely on some "future technology" that may never come to pass. A lot of projects get canceled before reaching the deployment stage. That's the nature of running a technology-based business.

LonghornXP is passing on what he is hearing. It's not his fault if some of those things are wrong. I don't mind the rumors. I'm just smart enough not to make any important decisions based on rumors.

But just how useful are rumors that require "future technology" to change the speed of light to be realized? And doesn't that need to be pointed out so that you can sift the wheat from the chaff?

 

[tibber]

But just how useful are rumors that require "future technology" to change the speed of light to be realized? And doesn't that need to be pointed out so that you can sift the wheat from the chaff?

K2ue,

Yupper, we do need converse, pick apart, and examine all the rumors. That's the beauty and fun part of the forums. Sometimes we'll make sense of the rumors, sometimes we can't. When we can't, normally we've been good at keeping it civil. I'm not saying we've crossed the line in this thread yet, but i'm sensing that things are warming up.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[peterl1365]

But just how useful are rumors that require "future technology" to change the speed of light to be realized? And doesn't that need to be pointed out so that you can sift the wheat from the chaff?

Granted, VOIP via satellite doesn't seem to make much sense. However, there is still a significant market opportunity for high-speed internet. A 250 msec delay is not that bad for general web-surfing, and it's a relative non-factor for things like P2P and NNTP. And it doesn't necessarily have to be 2-way satellite transmission. There might still be a market in rural areas for hybrid dial-up/satellite-down internet access. This has been available for years, but with only about 384-768Kbps throughput. Those speeds are not a compelling reason to upgrade from dial-up. Perhaps if D* could offer true 3mpbs download speeds, a lot of people who cannot get cable or DSL internet may sign up. A million customers (nationwide) at $30-40 per month is not chump change.

In any event, there's probably some pointy-haired boss somewhere in D* that is making a case for this business plan. Whether he convinces Rupert to go ahead with it is an entirely different question, and one that no one can predict.

 

[k2ue]

Granted, VOIP via satellite doesn't seem to make much sense. However, there is still a significant market opportunity for high-speed internet. A 250 msec delay is not that bad for general web-surfing, and it's a relative non-factor for things like P2P and NNTP. And it doesn't necessarily have to be 2-way satellite transmission. There might still be a market in rural areas for hybrid dial-up/satellite-down internet access. This has been available for years, but with only about 384-768Kbps throughput. Those speeds are not a compelling reason to upgrade from dial-up. Perhaps if D* could offer true 3mpbs download speeds, a lot of people who cannot get cable or DSL internet may sign up. A million customers (nationwide) at $30-40 per month is not chump change.

In any event, there's probably some pointy-haired boss somewhere in D* that is making a case for this business plan. Whether he convinces Rupert to go ahead with it is an entirely different question, and one that no one can predict.

Remember when you are typing to an internet form, as I am now, the keystrokes are being uplinked, and the new screen data downlinked to your display. Try typing with a 1/2 second lag in the visual feedback -- it's about as annoying as the delayed sidetone (voice echo) is a satellite phone call.

Edit Note: I originally said 1/4 second above -- but it's 1/4 second for your keystoke to get to the application server, and another 1/4 second for the screen update to get back: 1/2 second total, and this can't be mitigated by a proxy server on the satellite, which makes surfing appear faster (1/4 second), but doesn't help for anything interactive.

 

[rad]

Remember when you are typing to an internet form, as I am now, the keystrokes are being uplinked, and the new screen data downlinked to your display. Try typing with a 1/2 second lag in the visual feedback -- it's about as annoying as the delayed sidetone (voice echo) is a satellite phone call.

Edit Note: I originally said 1/4 second above -- but it's 1/4 second for your keystoke to get to the application server, and another 1/4 second for the screen update to get back: 1/2 second total, and this can't be mitigated by a proxy server on the satellite, which makes surfing appear faster (1/4 second), but doesn't help for anything interactive.

Bad example, typing in this forum is not echoing the keystrokes. Now if this was a telnet session or something like Citrix or Microsoft Terminal Server then that would be a problem.

 

[k2ue]

Bad example, typing in this forum is not echoing the keystrokes. Now if this was a telnet session or something like Citrix or Microsoft Terminal Server then that would be a problem.

I stand corrected as to where the text example applies -- but does it not take 1/2 second for the result of a mouse click (where a screen change is produced) to happen, such as when I submit this reply?

 

[LonghornXP]

They are trying to offer both high speed internet and VOD services in the future. Now they want to try phone service as well by trying it doesn't mean it will work. Now I'm with you in that I don't think phone service over satellite will work but I'll never count it out because we never know what these companies can do but this would be one heck of a magic trick. It just seems that they really think they can pull this off which is why I said it. As always I've said many times that these rumors are future plans and I've also said that some of these will never come about while others will. DirecTV had plans almost two years ago to offer many more national HD channels but things changed but that didn't mean that the rumors weren't really their plans at the time they said them. That is why we call them rumors. I try to clearly state when I'm told if something is coming up that they would like to offer compared to something that they want to offer (compared to trying to offer) and that is sometimes hard todo. I also try to say if a rumor is a shorter term project or change compared to a longer term project or change. For example true VOD is a long term plan while PPV VOD delivered to customers DVRs during the night is a very very short term plan. As we know HD locals will be a short to mid term range plan for everyone.

As with anything some things will just never happen. Right now you guys did catch me on the phone service because I didn't say what my opinions are of it because I didn't know what they could do with it. I know its very hard but its not impossible that is for sure. I'm thinking that this won't happen for a very long term if ever.

As with all of this only time will tell won't it.

 

[bestboff]

I think you guys have flogged this horse to death. Let's get back to the good stuff, like the media center and a better date for releasing the HD PVR. Longhorn, do you know if the new PVR is going to have a 30 second skip feature?

 

[LonghornXP]

I think you guys have flogged this horse to death. Let's get back to the good stuff, like the media center and a better date for releasing the HD PVR. Longhorn, do you know if the new PVR is going to have a 30 second skip feature?

No on the 30 second skip but you can always fast forward. The HD DVR and HMC products will go back 3 seconds on their own after you stop fast forwarding by the way.

 

[bestboff]

No on the 30 second skip but you can always fast forward. The HD DVR and HMC products will go back 3 seconds on their own after you stop fast forwarding by the way.

That's a deal breaker for me. Dish here I come. BIG Mistake on Directv's part. A new unit with less features. And the one feature you get a PVR for. And it's not just for skipping commercials. It's a killer app for watching football. Hike, run play, fall down, 30 second skip, all lined up again, next play!

 

[peterl1365]

That's a deal breaker for me. Dish here I come. BIG Mistake on Directv's part. A new unit with less features. And the one feature you get a PVR for. And it's not just for skipping commercials. It's a killer app for watching football. Hike, run play, fall down, 30 second skip, all lined up again, next play!

I had a Dish 508 before I switched to D*Tivo. I really don't miss the 30 second skip at all (I know I can enable it). It's easy enough to hit the FF, and every so often, I wind up skipping back to watch a commercial that I find interesting. For example, Marisa Tomei doing a Hanes commercial. Good stuff

To each his own, however. I want the HMC for the true multi-room viewing and the ability to eventually hook into my PC. I don't see where E* has anything even on the horizon that will do that.

 

[elephant98]

That's a deal breaker for me. Dish here I come. BIG Mistake on Directv's part. A new unit with less features. And the one feature you get a PVR for. And it's not just for skipping commercials. It's a killer app for watching football. Hike, run play, fall down, 30 second skip, all lined up again, next play!

I'm bummed about the new D* dvr's for that very reason too. I absolutely love 30 second skip for football watching purposes. On that note, does anyone know if the new HD-DVR's will have a picture in picture feature? I still keep my old Ultimate TV around for football season just for that purpose.

 

[LonghornXP]

That's a deal breaker for me. Dish here I come. BIG Mistake on Directv's part. A new unit with less features. And the one feature you get a PVR for. And it's not just for skipping commercials. It's a killer app for watching football. Hike, run play, fall down, 30 second skip, all lined up again, next play!

First don't take this the wrong way and I do understand how this is a deal breaker for you but please understand that this was never a feature of a DirecTV DVR with Tivo but a software hack of a DirecTV DVR with Tivo. Just make sure you understand the difference. Now if no hack comes about for the new HD DVR boxes than for you it is no doubt a deal breaker but sadly to say don't think that your the majority on this because your not. In the whole scheme of things you mean nothing to DirecTV. I know this sounds harsh but its true. Now besides that I think right now if you get HD locals via OTA antenna without problems your nuts if your not with Dish Network or your cable company right now. Assuming your not a sports fan of course. Right now Dish has better picture quality and more HD channels so your staying with DirecTV for some other reason than a 30 second skip. Because both companies offer this feature (as a feature or via a hack) and have been for quite a while something is holding you to DirecTV when they have bad picture quality and very little HD channel choices with a high price at that.

I'm not picking on you or doubting you but just think about this for a second because I would like to know just for fun what is really keeping you with DirecTV because it can't be their picture quality or the HD offerings or their track record for adding new HD channels. Maybe its the Tivo software but you also seem willing to give that up in a second for the new DirecTV DVR if it has that 30 second skip. I'm just wondering what could be left to keep you with DirecTV for this long besides just price and NFL Sunday Ticket. You must get decent OTA reception or you would have never bought the HD Tivo to start with. These are all just my opinions only and again don't take this personally because I'm just curious what is keeping you because if its something unusual I would love to pass this onto DirecTV so they would know.

 

[moonman]

First don't take this the wrong way and I do understand how this is a deal breaker for you but please understand that this was never a feature of a DirecTV DVR with Tivo but a software hack of a DirecTV DVR with Tivo. .

------------------
The 30 second skip was NOT a hack....it was a programming feature that was
left in the original Tivo software as a hidden "Easter egg", and was never
either pushed by Tivo as a feature, nor removed as a trouble maker...it was
simply ignored..D* removed the feature in a later Tivo software upgrade.

 

[Gizmofan]

HR-20 or HMC?

Probably they want to have the HR-20 on the market due to inventory levels. But which will be better? The HR-20 (HD DVR MPEG4 box) or the HMC

Gizmofan