need beginner help to configure KU FTA system

[techie]

Although I'm a HAM and electronics tech, I'm new to satellite work. Having said that,
I have some freebie satellite stuff sitting around, and I'm hoping that I might
have enough stuff laying around to slap together a simple system for PBS (AMC4 or AMC5 ?) on KU (from USA).
I have the following:
36" x 27" offset dish with an Eagle 270 dual LNB
receivers:
STS- MBS-LSR (C- band ? )
Motorola DC II mod: DSR410DS
Dishnet 301
MACOM IDU-T1
Birdview C band, w/70mhz IF
Since I'm new to satellite work I'd appreciate some feedback as to whether any
of these receivers are of any use with a KU LNB, and whether or not the dish in
question is big enough with the LNB that came with it (I'm not sure of the NF
on the LNB), etc .....
Thanks in advance.

 

[Anole]

For Ku, the dish will get you going.
I can't find an Eagle 270 LNB, and the Eagle Aspen web site doesn't list such a thing, so I can't say.
I don't believe any of those receivers will work for traditional Ku band FTA use.

I won't make any assumptions about your desires, or budget, but I hope these answers will spark your interest to learn more.

 

[techie]

That's a start ..

Thanks for the assistance Anole. I also couldn't find full info on that LNB, despite a lot of searching. I figured the old receivers I mentioned might not be compatible, but I figured it's best to ask, especially since I'm currently only looking to view one bird, with no fancy extras required. I haven't come across any tech papers describing the basic differences between C and KU receivers, other than the obvious frequency difference of over 5 GHZ. I suspect that other major differences are IF freq, polarization switching methods, and LNB power supply voltages.
I thought I had seen ads for add-on KU LNBs for BUDs that would allow dual band operation. That made me wonder if the IF output from this LNB might be compatible with one of the receivers mentioned. I know that even if it was, I would be missing a lot of modern features, but I'm only looking to slap together a temporary system to get started with, as I have the KU dish "planted" on a pole and ready to go. I'll probably buy a new (or used) KU FTA receiver soon, but that still leaves the question of the LNB being compatible with it, and the dish being large enough to avoid problems with signal strength using that LNB. BTW, the only mention I found of that LNB was regarding Spanish programming, but tech details were lacking.
At least your reply makes me feel more confident that I'm not missing the chance to use these old receivers for KU. I also have a complete 8' Birdview BUD in excellent condition that I was given, and eventually (when I get time) I'll set up a C-band system - that was my original intent, but having all this older stuff dropped in my lap recently, has given me the itch to get something quick and easy going in the meantime.
Thanks again for the assistance.

 

[Anole]

not to overload you all at once . . .

Reading through the FAQ section here, and some of the recent posts, will give you a good foundation.
Here's a convenient list of satellites, frequencies, and programming to get you interested.

Ku band is generally in the 11 and 12 ghz range.
You'll find up to three local oscillator frequencies used, for various parts of the band, and applications.
IF output from the LNB to the receiver is roughly 950 to 2150mhz
A 30" to 40" dish will usually satisfy most, with 36" being a sweet spot for price and shipping cost.

C-band (used on the Big Ugly Dishes), is around 3.5 to 4.5ghz, and uses the same IF range.
Only the LO is changed to protect the innocent.
Dish sizes range from 4' (don't waste your time), 6' (I can get lots of stuff), 8' (serious), 10' (probably Cadillac from the "old days"), to 12' (I never saw a dollar I couldn't spend).

For a more technical list of satellites on both Ku and C band, use the links at the top of this page on Global-CM.
He has good Ku and C band lists for pretty much everything you can see.

The final authority for lists of such things, is Lyngsat.com
It's the most technical, and the most difficult to read and navigate.

edit:
by the way, you mention your "I've got a Birdview and a boat-load of old equipment" story over on the C-band section of the forum, and they'll take to you like a long-lost son.
But , since your post was Ku-related, we'll get you tuned up on the shorter waves, here.

 

[techie]

ready to make the plunge

I made the decesion to go ahead and buy a new or used KU FTA receiver yesterday, so now I'm only faced with the question of whether or not the Eagle/Aspen 270 KU dual LNB will be compatible. I finally found a little info on it at:
http://files.f2atv.com/Pandy1/LNBpicBook/LNB picture book.pdf
(bottom of PDF page)
If anyone could comment on likely compatibilty issues it would help as I don't want to buy a dish/LNB unless it's necessary. Of course if it's necessary, then I'd prefer to know now and order it all as a package to save $$.
Using my 36" x 27" (salvaged) dish with that LNB which is speced at 1.1 (max) NF, I would suspect that signal strength would be OK from Kansas, USA for AMC 3/4/5 and Galaxy 27 (any comments welcome as I'm a newbie to FTA). I'm wondering about polarity switching and PS voltage, etc, on this LNB, so I'm hoping for feedback before I take the leap. Like the old carpenter adage goes: "measure twice - cut once".
Up to now, the vast majority of my experience in RF is at VHF/UHF, so I have the nagging feeling that (being a KU newbie) I might miss something that's obvious to someone who's been in KU/C for a while.
Thanks for all the help Anole! I'm really getting "fired up" on FTA thanks to this forum.:up
BTW, if anyone has a used Neusat SP6000 (or similar) for sale please PM me.

 

[Anole]

... now I'm only faced with the question of whether or not the Eagle/Aspen 270 KU dual LNB will be compatible.
I finally found a little info on it at:
http://files.f2atv.com/Pandy1/LNBpicBook/LNB picture book.pdf
(bottom of PDF page)
If anyone could comment on likely compatibilty issues it would help as I don't want to buy a dish/LNB unless it's necessary.
Using my 36" x 27" (salvaged) dish with that LNB which is speced at 1.1 (max) NF, I would suspect that signal strength would be OK from Kansas, USA for AMC 3/4/5 and Galaxy 27 .
I'm wondering about polarity switching and PS voltage, etc, on this LNB, so I'm hoping for feedback before I take the leap.

Okay, that looks like what we call a Primestar LNB.
That was a company who bought a lot of dishes and LNBs a number of years ago.
We pick them up surplus now, and put them back to work.
The actual dishes might say Channel Master on the back side, or have other standard markings.
Any thread on recycling Primestar dishes will show LNBs and horns as in your link, and both round and elliptical dishes.

More recently, StarChoice, Globecast, and DirecTV have used small elliptical dishes which are molded, not stamped from metal.
They are easy to spot, as they have molded-in ribs on the back side of the dish.
The probability is high, that the dishes all came from the same company, and are interchangable.

That beer-can LNB looks exactly correct.
And if it's outfitted with the horn as shown in your picture, that is what is needed to match the elliptical dish shape.
Here is the actual Eagle Aspen PDF file on the LNB.

With the rare exception of some very old Primestar LNBs, the receiver supplies 12 or 18 volts to the LNB to power it and to select between Vertical or Horizontal polarity.
Just as mentioned in the top of the link you gave.
Your LNB and all modern FTA receivers are compatible.

See other threads about using a dish of this size, and how it'll perform with your chosen satellites.
I can't say. Mine is 36" round, with over twice the area, and it's fine.
Yours should get you going, pulling in 90% of what's available.
Bigger dishes will also have less rain-fade.
If you should later decide you need a bigger dish, you'll have accumulated a lot of education and experience on this freebie dish and LNB.

Well, that should be some food for thought.
Hope now that we know what you got, others will chime in on it.

 

[techie]

great stuuf!

Great research Anole! Although I obviously don't know much about stuff above UHF, I kinda suspected that it might have been a Primestar at one time. I went out and found info stamped into the back of the dish just now ... and of course you are 100% correct, it is a Channel Master, mod 3040975, mold .90 x .63. Your help on the LNB really helps as now I can buy a receiver alone and recycle the dish/LNB and nice heavy pole mount that it came with. As you say, it will get me started, and I enjoy refurbing older equipment of any kind - especially when it's a freebie or very cheap! I also have a few more freebie (or cheap) dishes like it lined up, and since I only want to view 2 or 3 birds at the moment, I can simply point one dish at each bird (for now). Hard to justify a rotor/motor at this time. I live in a tiny rural village on a couple of fairly secluded acres, so zoning and neighbors are not an issue. I bought this property with antennas in mind, being a HAM and UHF/VHF antenna builder.
One thing you might possibly comment on is whether or not new LNBs to fit these old dishes (with this type mount) are cheap and common, in case this one is dead (fingers crossed). I have a small herd of Dishnet LNBs, but the mount is different.
Thanks again!:up

 

[Anole]

Dishnet and DirecTV LNBs are typically for the high end of the band, and use a LO of 11250 mhz
As you see from the docs, yours is for the lower middle of the band where the FTA stuff is located, and has a LO of 10750 mhz
(I didn't look up those numbers, so double check 'em
They all use low-side injection.

Also, the high end of the band runs high power, so the LNBs don't need to be so good, quality wise, and more importantly, they are circularly polarized.
Meaning, not interchangable.
We use LNBs which switch between Vertical and Horizontal polarization.
The pay TV stuff switches between right-hand and left-hand polarization.

Don't throw away any DirecTV or Dishnet stuff you find.
We'll use that for your advanced education in satellite technology.
For now, go read all the FAQs in the FTA section of this forum for a better understanding of LNBs and their frequencies.

There is probably another notation on the back of your dish.
Something like 63e
If so, that's a common and well known dish
I think the next size up in that family is 84e

There is very little likelyhood that your LNB will be bad.
If so, similar ones with horns sell on eBay for about $10

Hope that gets you going.


by the way, C-band, roughly 3.5 to 4.5 ghz, uses high-side injection, with an LO of 5150mhz.

 

[techie]

Just what the doctor ordered!

You're a wealth of just the type of info I was looking for to get started in FTA, Anole. I have the technical background to understand the systems to component level, but I was lacking the quickstart FAQs you kindly presented in a precise and easy to understand manner. I had read a lot of posts before this, but it left me with a lot of questions, especially where recycled stuff is concerned. BTW, one of my recent worries was that the LNB might be circular polarization, but you put that to rest.
I actually did Dishnet installs for a short time some years ago, and that gave me a quick tunnel-vision type look into KU, albeit no FTA, or hardware other than the common dishnet stuff.
No, I certainly won't throw away any stuff like the Dishnet LNBs. As an electron herder of long standing I'm a packrat where tech stuff is concerned.
My main problem now is that I'm in the middle of rebuilding an old Victorian house and it doesn't leave much time for stuff like this. Once that's under control I will, as you say, dive into more advanced stuff. My background in digital and RF (VHF/UHF) electronics (and encryption systems) helps a lot, but there's a lot of basic terms/stuff involved here that are not common to typical UHF/VHF systems. Once I grasp the basic concepts and terminology used, the rest is relatively easy because of my related training and experience , but getting enough (quickly) together in my mind for that first system is the challenge. Fortunately, you got me over the "hump", as they say.
Once again, many thanks!!

 

[Anole]

You are very welcome.
And we have a wealth of members here who can go well beyond what I've told you, on the whole width and breadth of the satellite hobby.
This is really the right place to be for meeting, learning, and even shopping.
I've picked up an incredible foundation, hanging out here.

When you said you were a HAM and a technophile, I treated you as one.
It's a pleasure to run into someone who gets it so quickly.
(I can't remember the last time I said: "low-side injection" )

I've been doin' electronics since grade school, and hammin' since college days.
I took up satellites a few years back.
It happened when I was in the middle of making a helix antenna for a 2 km wifi link (2.4ghz), and realized I had no one to talk to!

While a lot of people get into FTA for entertainment (especially if they live rural), it is very engrossing as a technical or mechanical hobby.

 

[Anole]

Is the dish discussed in this thread the same as yours?
Seems like it might be.
Thought you could use some encouragement.

 

[SatelliteAV]

If you need to replace the LNB(f) (if it tests bad) consider replacing the LNB portion of your system rather than strapping on a new LNBF. The feedhorn on the Channel Master dishes are designed to illuminate the elliptical design. Off the shelf LNBFs will over illuminate the dish and not perform as well.

 

[techie]

Aha! Another electron herder!

:clap Glad to see that I'm not the only one out there addicted to herding electrons Anole. I got the bug at about 6 or 7 years old, proceeded to devour the family bookcase where a whole herd of old classic electronics engineering books lived ..... and I've been building, designing, repairing (and hacking apart - LOL ) electronics ever since - many moons! Time flys when you're having fun..... lemme see ...... how many years is that ....
My problem is that I'm a DIYer where everything is concerned, and I have tooooo many interests, so it hasn't left enough time to get into satellite work until now - barely time even now.
Now, if my wireless internet connection will just keep working long enough to order a receiver... It's been in-and-out most of the week (terrestrial microwave).

 

[techie]

Good point Brian!

Thanks for the "heads-up" Brian! I probably would have missed that if you hadn't informed me. Noobie ... and all that. I assume you mean removing the FH from the front of the LNBF and reusing it.

 

[techie]

pics of my dish

I think the dish is probably the same Anole, but my bracket has minor differences as it's pole mount. I'll attach a few pics. Note: I haven't cleaned it yet, so it looks pretty ratty. BTW, it appears to be either fiberglass or composite - not steel. Width is ~36" if the tape measure follows the curvature, and the height is ~27" .
I'm glad to see that it has hope of being decent.
Thanks!
Links to my dish pics:
http://www.grabapic.com/dish/mount.jpg
http://www.grabapic.com/dish/arm.jpg
http://www.grabapic.com/dish/sideView.jpg

Note - I had problems getting the images to display in this post, so the links above should take you to where they "live".

 

[SatelliteAV]

Correct. An LNB with an intergrated feedhorn is called an LNBF. The Channel Master has a feedhorn that is designed to only illuminate the elliptical dish. You can replace the back LNB portion if it has failed. You might consider placing the LNB with an Invacom QPF-031 so you can receive both linear FSS and circular DBS signals.

Thanks for the "heads-up" Brian! I probably would have missed that if you hadn't informed me. Noobie ... and all that. I assume you mean removing the FH from the front of the LNBF and reusing it.

 

[Anole]

Tried to edit post #8 above, but I guess it's been too long.
Here's what I was going to add to it:


edit:
Stolen from another thread, here's a little clarification of a few common sizes -

The smaller dish (75E) is 33" x 25"
The larger dish (84E) is 40" x 30"

Both are oval Channel Masters.

Truth is, the ovals and the "round" come in a -lot- of sizes.
In other threads, there are discussions of 1.2m and 1.8m "round".

 

[techie]

LNBF replacement

Thanks Brian. You answered what would have been my next question as I'll probably want to receive both Linear and Circular Polarization. Sorry for the late reply - our wireless internet tower was struck by lightning over the weekend, so I've been offline since then. Good thing they finally got it going late this evening - I was getting DTs (as in shakes) !

 

[techie]

Dish sizes

You know, this could get addictive Anole! I already have a BUD in the back 40 awaiting installation, and now I find myself eyeing 4-8ft FG dishes (poosible KU?) that are sprouting weeds all around this area. Methinks I could have a dish farm here by fall if I'm not carefull.
I was about to buy a NEUSAT SP-6000 before my wireless internet died the other day. If anyone knows of any reason why this union should not take place please speak now. LOL
BTW, here's a link to the BUD that's been awaiting install since last fall. Note: I got a few drops of rain on the lens - the dish is not damaged.
http://grabapic.com/dish/birdview.jpg

 

[Anole]

research: are your eyes bleeding, yet?

I hate posting eBay links but this one has ended.
It's the guy offering LNBs with feedhorns, much like yours.
So, as you can see, they're not exactly uncommon...nor terribly expensive.

And as suggested above, keeping the feedhorn to match that elliptical dish is probably useful.
...as opposed to just any general purpose LNB, which is optimized for a circular (round, from the point of view of the LNB) dish.

The one hot trick as mentioned by SatAV above, is that unusual (totally unique!) QPF-031 LNB from Invacom.
It's got two linear and two circular outputs, and bolts right onto your existing feedhorn.
But it's not mandatory for day-one.



I don't know anything about your Neusat.
Hopefully others will chime in.
I know the most popular receivers for Ku on this forum are Coolsat 5000, Panasat 3500sd, and maybe Mercury II.
You can usually get any of them for a decent price.
And all come with the blind scan feature, which I think you'll find invaluable.
I'm not aware of anything preventing them from being used for FTA C-band, either.

If you're on a budget, I have seen the Traxis DBS 3500 for about $70 plus shipping.
It has blind scan, but doesn't do AC3 totally right.
If you aren't pinching pennies, I think any of the three above would be a wise choice.

Search the forum for all three, and read what the users say.
Most are also in the Equipment Review section, above, as is the Invacom.


And concerning that Birdview you're sitting on....
Go read some Birdview threads in the C-band section.
And then either get that thing on the air, or give it to someone who'll appreciate it!
Those are just too nice to waste.