new antennae recommendation

[opryman67]

here are my specifics. I am abou 40 miles from these stations. will an indoor ant. work????......


DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
red - vhf WSYX 6 ABC COLUMBUS OH 311° 25.8 6
* red - vhf WSYX-DT 6.1 ABC COLUMBUS OH 311° 25.8 13
red - vhf WCMH 4 NBC COLUMBUS OH 315° 27.5 4
* red - uhf WCMH-DT 4.1 NBC COLUMBUS OH 315° 27.5 14
red - vhf WBNS 10 CBS COLUMBUS OH 315° 27.5 10
* red - uhf WBNS-DT 10.1 CBS COLUMBUS OH 315° 27.5 21
red - uhf WTTE 28 FOX COLUMBUS OH 311° 25.8 28
* red - uhf WTTE-DT 28.1 FOX COLUMBUS OH 311° 25.8 36
red - uhf WOSU 34 PBS COLUMBUS OH 339° 34.1 34
* blue - uhf WOSU-DT 34.1 PBS COLUMBUS OH 339° 34.1 38
blue - uhf WCLL-LP 19 A1 COLUMBUS OH 316° 26.0 19
blue - uhf WOUB 20 PBS ATHENS OH 144° 37.8 20
blue - uhf WSFJ 51 i NEWARK OH 42° 19.2 51
blue - uhf WWHO 53 CW CHILLICOTHE OH 257° 27.7 53
* violet - uhf WWHO-DT 53.1 CW CHILLICOTHE OH 257° 27.7 46

 

[Jim5506]

There are anecdotal tales of indoor antennas working at your distance, but it would be unusual.

40 miles is considered fringe reception and therefore you need a fringe solution. The data you included shows you are 25-30 miles from the towers.

Do you want analog and digital reception? If so, you need an all channel (uHF/VHF) antenna. A winegard 7082 or a Channel Master Crossfire is recommended. At 25-30 miles you should not need an amplifier with an adequate antenna mounted outside above the roofline.

If digital is all you want a CM 4228 would be great.

 

[dashaund]

I second the recommendation. I'm about the same distance from my towers here. More heigth the better. You could always TRY an indoor antenna, but I'm sure performance will be lacking. On a nice day, I could barely pull in some of my stations...I had to reorient the antenna everytime I changed channels. If it started raining, FORGET IT! Now, with an outdoor antenna much like the 4228 (Antennas Direct DB4), I get into the 90s on all my stations. VERY HAPPY!

 

[texasbrit]

The CM4228 and the DB-4 are NOT the same. They are both very good UHF antennas, but the CM4228 is also a decent performer on VHF-hi so it will be better on channel 13 which is your lowest-frequency digital station.
But if you want the analog stations as well you will need a good VHF/UHF combination antenna.

 

[MrMylesG]

DB4 antenna

I have a PHD-101 OTA receiver and a DB4 antenna setup. I live about 15 to 20 miles from most of our stations. I have the DB4 mounted on my fence next to my house.

I get at least 95% signal on all channels and a razor sharp image on my Niko 32" LCD HD TV. In fact, right now I am watching our Ch 4 with 100% signal.

 

[Rick0725]

There are many popular uhf antennas and the users are proud of the results they have achieved at home.

Time again to put things into perspective for the novices and the experienced.

these popular uhf antennas come to mind.

winegard
pr4400
pr8800

channel master
cm4221
cm4228

antennas direct
db2
db4
db8
91xg

Radio shack
U-75R

There is confusion out there concerning the virtual digital channel assignments.

In fact, right now I am watching our Ch 4 with 100% signal with my DB-4

Ch4-1, for example.
Many think the virtual channel, ch 4-1 is vhf, and in actuality the station transmits on a uhf channel.

Many mention that their uhf antenna receives ch7-13 but are not specific if the the channels they receive are analog or digital. Analog signal carries better than digital signal.

Many uhf antennas do receive high band vhf but the antenna gain is low. In many cases, the users are receiving signal in easy antennaweb reception zones (yellow, green, light green) and the users usually do not admit that fact.

This is the antenna gain requirement spec that antennaweb uses to base their suggestions.

VHF Low (2-6) VHF High (7-13) UHF (ch14-69)
-25 dBd - 15 dBd -10 dBd (yellow)
-12 dBd -9 dBd -6 dBd (dark Green)
-2.5 dBd -2.5 dBd -2.5 dBd (light green)
-2.5 dBd 0 dBd 0 dBd (red)
-2.5 dBd 0 dBd 0 dBd (blue)
4 dBd 6 dBd 8 dBd (violet)

For example, you can have a station rated yellow at antennaweb and the requirement in gain for high vhf is only -15 dbd for yellow, but in red and blue the requirement is 0 dbd, and in purple the requirement is +6 dbd.

If you have obstructions, hills, or an inside installation, you need to add 3-6 db.

Here are the net gain specs for some popular uhf antennas on ch13 in dbd.
Square shooter -21
DB-2 -19
DB-8 -10
PR8800 -7
Cm4221 -1
cm4228 +4

The gain on the high band vhf channels on the cm4228 are not equal.

cm4228 dbd gain on high band vhf by channel
ch 7 -1 dbd
ch8 -4
ch9 +3
ch 10+6
ch 11 +5
ch 12 +1
ch 13 +4

red - vhf WSYX-DT 6.1 ABC COLUMBUS OH 311° 25.8 ch13

the requirement for red
-2.5 dBd 0 dBd 0 dBd

For this example, the only uhf antenna with positive gain on vhf ch 13 is the cm4228.

But this is for an outside install. If the install is indoors or if there are obstructions the cm 4228 may not perform well on ch 13 (since you need to add 3-6db).

If I were to use a uhf antenna to receive high band vhf, the only antenna I would use would be a cm4228 in situations where the antennaweb results for that station are rated better than red/blue

in these antennaweb zones.
yellow
green
lt. green
red
blue

If the channel you are trying to receive is ch 7 or 8, you may have difficulty in red and blue with the cm 4228 because the gain for those channels are negative. Red and blue requires greater than Zero ...ch 9-13 gain are positive with the cm4228.

A combo vhf/uhf antenna or a vhf antenna tuned to ch 7-13 combined with a uhf and is the best alternative.

dbd gain for a 13 element high band vhf antenna is typically 10dbd.

hd7082P is an example of a vhf/uhf combo.
6.3 dbd low vhf
10.3 high vhf
12.05 uhf

Hope I helped put things into perspective for you.

 

[texasbrit]

The other thing to remember - and to repeat over and over - is that no-one knows what the reception performance will be in your particular situation. Antennaweb is a useful guideline, but is often very conservative when it comes to digital channels. If people who live 50+ miles from the stations bel;ieved antennaweb they would often not even try to get OTA whereas many of them get really good digital reception with the right antenna. Antenna gain numbers given by manufacturers are not reliable. And I think even some of Rick's numbers come from simulations (is that correct, Rick?). But if you are 60 miles from stations, don't expect to get reliable reception with a small indoor antenna!!!

I'll give you my own experience which maps pretty well onto Rick's numbers. I'm just over 40 miles from the DFW transmitter farm. Antennaweb says I can receive all the main DFW digital channels, but a few are "red" stations, including my only VHF station which is on "real" channel 9, and I also have a couple of "blue" UHF stations. My installation environment is the worst possible, in the attic which is full of a/c ducting and has metallic-lined insulation in the roof above the attic.

So using the antennaweb ratings and rick's numbers, for my red channel 9.1 I need an antenna gain of 0db. My loss by mounting in the attic is between 3 and 6db so I need a gain of 3-6db to get 9.1 properly. My CM4228 has a gain of 3db at channel 9 so I will get an effective gain of between zero and -3db with that antenna. So marginally OK in theory - in practice I get a great, stable signal at 75+ on my H-20. It has a great OTA tuner, other tuners are not as good. When analog goes away, the station moves to channel 8. I will lose a couple db on the antenna gain, but will probably still be OK. And I can always add a preamp. So my experience is in line with Rick's advice.

He said "If I were to use a uhf antenna to receive high band vhf, the only antenna I would use would be a cm4228 in situations where the antennaweb results for that station are rated better than red/blue". Works for me!

 

[Rick0725]

The issues with all this is.

-It is difficult to determine the losses anywhere...inside, outside over hill, over dale without instrumentation. You can estimate 3-6 db loss inside or anywhere (at your home for instance) but it can be 1 or 2db loss.

-signal strength on a hd tuner is NOT a true measurement of signal strength but of signal quality.

-depending on how the turner deciphers signal, amplification affects measured results on your hd tuner signal strength meter.

Antenna gain numbers given by manufacturers are not reliable

you want to here a good one!!!

A few weeks ago I called channel master technical to get their perspective of what would happen if a user removed the screen behind the cm 4228. Vhf performance came up in conversation. Guess which site I was told to refer to...hdtv primer.

The manufacturer of the friggin antenna boasts hdtvprimer gain figures. Wouldn't you think they would measure the gain and publish results on their own antenna!?!?! The cm 4228 was introduced about 40 years ago...doubt they are doing any R &D to improve that dinosaur.

I base my suggestions on alot of things...but mostly from experience...never had antennaweb 30 years ago.

To be honest with you...I do not use a cm4228 uhf antenna if there is highband vhf unless the customer twists my arm.

And who the hell wants to hear that on these forums.

 

[texasbrit]

I use the CM4228 rather than a VHF/UHF combination simply because there is not enough room in my attic to put a long-boom antenna and point it towards the antenna farm. Since the CM4228 is basically a flat vertical panel it fits in my attic and is easy to align. Yes I know I should really mount it outside, but......!!!

 

[Rick0725]

in practice I get a great, stable signal at 75+ on my H-20

Please do not take this personally, it is not a slam on your setup, or the work you went through to accomplish your antenna setup task...

What's so great about 75 signal strength?

Great would be more like high eighties to mid-high nineties.

Its more like a little better than mediocar....sorta how you would expect the cm4228 to perform on high vhf based on the numbers...nothing special.

 

[dashaund]

Signal strength is nice, but signal QUALITY is the key. I've seen signal strength in the 90s but it stops and stutters and breaks up every few seconds...this usually happens when you have bad multipath issues. However, I've seen singal in the high 60's (!) that are very stable. Hey, if he's getting the signal in the mid 70's and it's stable, then he's set. Just because his number is lower than somebody elses doesn't mean his setup sucks. That's the beauty about digital...once you've got it you've got it perfect, as long as it doesn't skip and stutter. It's kinda fun watching a beautiful HD picture with a cheap pair of rabbit ears...

 

[texasbrit]

Rick - I am agreeing with you!!! My e-mail is there as a practical demonstration of the numbers you gave in your e-mail!! My system behaves just as I would expect it to, and it's in line with the numbers you have quoted. I get 100 or close to on my signal quality on just about everything in UHF, and 75+ on the only VHF station in DFW. Just what I was hoping for with the CM4228. I'm not "proud" of the numbers, they are what they are!!

 

[Rick0725]

It was just intended to point out (to everyone) that the cm4228

-does a medicar job on hi band vhf
-that red and blue antennaweb results typically requires greater than Zero dbd gain outside to receive high band vhf.
-noted the dbd gain per high band vhf channel (ch7-13) on the cm4228
-noted the high band vhf gain figures of other antennas
-etc.

and most importantly
-was not an argument or a pissing match
-mentioned not to take it personally
-or was it intended to degrade anyone's personal system or hard work done to get their system to operate.
-knew up front that I would not make many friends mentioning the facts concerning the cm4228 and high band vhf.