No Way That Could Work! -The FTA Mad Scientist Thread-

[FTABman0]

Here is what happens to a Satellite Guys Member that has nothing to do and on a 75 degree sunny nice day!

Don’t laugh, some day you will get this way as well If you’re not close to there already!

For some of us here strange things to use and try in this hobby is nothing new and if it can be done, one of us has for the most part tried it but this on has been itching me for some time now and today we gave it a go!

I know this is strange and quite possibly the weirdest thing you could try or have patience for but I seen this done sometime back and also seen a Lego Dish made by someone that was really small and wanted to try this for myself to see the results! The Lego dish was very small but I had to try something smaller!

The Lego dish was all made out of course, Lego's with a foil back and a DSS LNB pointed at one of the DSS birds using Sub Equipment! I was inspired and had to try it for myself using FTA Equipment!

So how small can a dish be?

Well, for FTA use I would say you need a 31” or larger and these results could not be done with this kind of experiment! So, we are going to use a DBS bird since they are the most powerful up there and see for yourself!

I know you Members like this sort of thing so here we go!

The Satellite: EchoStar 7 at 119.0°W
The LNB: Invacom QPH-031 Circular Side
The Dishes: CDR Computer Writable Compact Disc & Skoal Snuff Can Lid
The Receiver: Fortec Star Dynamic
The Coax: Nothing Special, Just LEVITON Brand Standard RG-6
The Meter: Sadoun Analog SF95L DSS DBS Satellite Signal Finder as a secondary helper! Took it out after each lock!

The Pictures:
1. The CDR Size On A Tape Measure
2. The Invacom QPH-031 Placement On The CDR
3. Fortec Star Dynamic OSD Signal & Quality For NASA –CDR-
4. Fortec Star Dynamic OSD For NASA 2 –CDR-
5. Fortec Star Dynamic OSD For NASA 3 –CDR-
6. Fortec Star Dynamic OSD For NASA 4 –CDR-
7. The Skoal Snuff Can Size On A Tape Measure –SNUFF CAN-
8. The Invacom Placement On The Can Lid –SNUFF CAN-
9. Fortec Star Dynamic OSD Signal & Quality For NASA –SNUFF CAN-
10. Fortec Star Dynamic OSD Very Watchable Signal & Quality For NASA –CDR-


First of all it was not hard at all to find the signal with the CDR, when I hit the skew, boom it came right in! How good how about 61% Signal Quality and a Level of 83-87%!

How good was the picture?
Very watchable! But this I knew was not that amazing so we move to the snuff can lid!

Now on the Skoal lid,
An amazing Signal level of 80-81% but the Signal Quality was about 29-32% and the picture was freezing a bit, OK a lot but sometimes it would lock for about 10 seconds of watchable picture and sound! You know 30% is too low but the results were astonishing!

How good was that picture?
The coolest thing is the Snuff Can Lid got about 80% of the signal and you could see a picture! Watchable for a couple seconds without pixilation! Just the dreaded freeze!

This was a fun experiment to do; I will later post different things that I think can grab a signal want to try! Another reason this is a great hobby, the experimentation!

If it is weird or seems impossible or you can make it work post your FTA Mad Scientist ideas here in this thread! It can get interesting!

So You think you can go smaller!?!

Give it a try and post results and pictures here! We would love to see it!


This experiment could have not been possible without the fine products & equipment from our Proud Gold Sponsor Sadoun! (Plug Plug! )
They have kept me in the FTA business for 3 years and going!



K E V I N

 

[digiblur]

Now only if you could make those reflectors parabolic you would be better off and the LNB size to match it.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Neat stuff.

When I was younger I was able to catch C Band signals bounching off a chicken wire fence.

 

[Inno]

As cool and unbelievable as all this is, I think it only begs the question "what are we being bombarded with from outer space?"
How powerful does a signal have to be to be effectively picked up with a small, flat, certainly not optimal antenna such as a CD-R?

Nice work though! Definitely smaller than anything I would have expected to work!

 

[JosephB]

As cool and unbelievable as all this is, I think it only begs the question "what are we being bombarded with from outer space?"
How powerful does a signal have to be to be effectively picked up with a small, flat, certainly not optimal antenna such as a CD-R?

Nice work though! Definitely smaller than anything I would have expected to work!

I think it's more of the other side of that equation..how sensitive is the receiving equipment?

 

[Davage]

I can remember back in the late 80's / early 90's when they first started talking about the DBS satellites, there were jokes going around saying that you would be able to use a trash can lid to get satellite TV. It turns out that it is in fact possible. I never would have guessed using a CD to get satellite TV though.

 

[FTABman0]

How powerful does a signal have to be to be effectively picked up with a small, flat, certainly not optimal antenna such as a CD-R?

Nice work though! Definitely smaller than anything I would have expected to work!

Great question and thanks!

How powerful, well looks like …very! Makes you wonder doesn’t it? Now, I am no scientist and never pulled not one single slide rule out or scientific calculator to make any brain activation calculations here!

Just set everything up and moved them around till I got a signal on the satellite meter! At first you are riddled with doubt but when it locked with the CDR in the receiver, I knew about where to place my snuff can!

In both of these rigger dishes they are not even pointed at Echo 7 directly! The LNB is way out of whack at about where the 123.0°W Galaxy 18 Ku position and the disc is facing a bit in east about to the 97.0°W Galaxy 19 Ku stuff should be! You would not think it would work but remember, neither of these surfaces are parabolic in shape, and sounds impossible!

If I had to guess the these two dish substitutes were at about 124.0°W or facing a little more to 127.0°W if I was to use this the way I tied it!

Sounds totally impossible but can be done! Who knows why it worked, it was cool!

The LNB looks far away in these pictures but it is not as you can see by the reflection in the CDR. I was amazed that it was even possible too on a flat surface reflector! The CDR had to be to the left a bit and the Invacom had to be to the right, it was all not right according to standards but I got it to work!

Was really amazed on the Snuff Can lid! Had to work at that one a bit but we got it! From where the can lid was on the brick it was almost the same principle as the CDR but I had to raise the Invacom up to get Echo 7 to bounce off the lid back into the LNB!

For the record, the Invacom was off to the side (Facing Left looking into the can) about 2 inches from the snuff can, and took some moving around in all directions and up and downs!

I really did not think to measure the CDR; it was back a little father! That was kind of easy hit for I have done that one before last year!


This was fun beyond the word, if you still think you can’t do it, there is nothing stopping you from trying this experiment yourself! You can do it!

Scott Greczkowski Neat stuff.

When I was younger I was able to catch C Band signals bounching off a chicken wire fence.

Very Cool Scott! :up


K E V I N

 

[VinceT3]

that is seriously some of the funny yet coolest stuff I've seen in a while..

 

[DJ Rob]

Awesome thread!

 

[crackt]

haha. this is awesome. i had a bet that i could pick up hot circ signals with a pie plate. you beat me.

 

[eurosport]

haha. this is awesome. i had a bet that i could pick up hot circ signals with a pie plate. you beat me.

I was also going to try a 9" pie plate, but this makes it pointless! 29% on a snuff can, though -that's awesome! I had to get back up off the floor after seeing that one! :haha

 

[FTABman0]

OK men, since now we can say, “It’s been done” and since the pie pan I once did a long time ago with D* stuff back in the late 90s, we did the CD thing also back in the day of my Radio Broadcast Disc Jockey/Assistant Engineer days!

That Pie Pan thing really can be done! Much easier than what I done today with the snuff can lid or the CDR!

Our chief engineer got Bored all the time and we did silly stuff like this!

So what is the smallest you can go? The snuff lid is about all a want to try since it took about 2 hours of playing with that to get something!

You read the post and that was a time lapse version and I almost gave up on it! Not parabolic, small, very hard to try and a challenge! Got some transponders from 110 that had me thrown off!

I would say that you can’t go smaller than that, the circumference of that lid was about 2 ½ inches and it was a bear! I think the Invacom was the problem for I could not get a good aim around the eye & plastic itself! I am sure that the UPS guy today thought I lost my marbles!

That is what the thread is about now; let’s see if you can go smaller, bigger, weird shapes with DBS or DVB!! Weird LNB configurations, pole mounts you name it!

Now knowing that the lid & CDR size is impossible with KU, how small could you go below 18’ pizza size on linear birds? DBS is one thing but there is the real challenge with KU and I think that would generate some interesting results! I am the messenger here and will step aside and let you all have a go at that task! KU would be the one for the challenge! I don’t think I have it in me to try that, about lost my mind on the can lid today!

But it was great to get that signal on it and there was nobody around to show so you guys got the Premier Showing! It started to rain here about an hour after the first post and I had to quit!


Post it and pictures!

It's Alive!! It's Alive!!

K E V I N

 

[turbosat]

Interesting stuff! I would not have believed the snuff lid thing though, lol. Those circ sats really do put out some power.

 

[Davage]

This thread really has me thinking... I haven't got a dish pointed at 119 at all. I bet that a small piece of sheet metal on the fence, with the LNB positioned correctly would work Just imagine a fence with LNBs sticking out of the side of it..

Although, I've got a stack of DBS dishes sitting behind my shed.. It would be easier to point an 18" dish at 119 for Nasa, but not as much fun. I wonder how creative people could get with the non-DBS satellites. The side of a steel building might be able to reflect enough signal to an LNB to tune into some of the satellites. This could be useful for places where the Home Owners Associations have put restrictions on dish sizes. Use the side of your 8ft shed as a reflector.. It just needs to be positioned right..

This thread I think is going to end up being a lot of fun!

 

[Stargazer]

Wow. This is the kind of stuff I have been wanting to do for a while, to see the smallest surface I could bonce a signal off of, but I didn't think it would relfect off of something flat like that. So I take it that it will not work as well with the Dish Network lnb's since they are not as sensitive on such small devices such as CDR's?

 

[Larry1]

I remember seeing somewhere on the internet a large square cone used to pickup satellite signals. If I remember correctly, it was about four feet long and about a foot and a half square on the open end, narrowing down to the LNB opening. No dish, just the square cone.

 

[Inno]

Well if you're only using a snuff can lid and you can get some signal...........I always wondered if you had a powerful enough satellite, could you simply point your LNB backwards toward the satellite and pick something up that way.........or is the dish required to focus the scattered signals enough to make it usable?
Essentially what your dish is doing (and I'm no scientist) is gathering as much signal as possible and focusing it, in the proper phase on one small point (the probe of your LNB). If you were to enlarge the probe on your LNB would that also gather more signal or would it be too diffused to work?

 

[Inno]

Thinking even further into this as it applies to VHF theory, or at least my limited knowledge of it....... the length of your antenna is altered based on the frequency you are transmitting (or receiving I guess). 1/4 wave antennas (being 1/4 the length of a full wave) are a popular option for more compact setups while 1/2 or full wave antennas will get you more range.........would this hold true for satellite signals in the Ghz range? Given a precise length based on probably a multiple of the wavelength of the frequency you are trying to receive. In the Ghz range the length of one wave would be very short therefore making an antenna to receive multiples of that wavelength would be more practical and probably get you more signal gain..........could someone with perhaps some amateur radio or electronics engineering theory behind them chime in?

 

[FTABman0]

Wow....So I take it that it will not work as well with the Dish Network lnb's since they are not as sensitive on such small devices such as CDR's?

I don't know, and that is the neat part!
I did show the neighbor guy down the road before it started to rain tonight! He thought that was something else! I have to give you guys a bit of confession; I did have to make the can a bit parabolic by bending a bit. The picture in post one was before I started and it was back away from the can to show perspective on how I had the lid set up. Frankly, after about two hours of messing with it I did not need to take a picture at that time, then it worked and I did not want to touch it!!

But I assure you this is not a joke, I have a witness! LOL!

After I posted this right before the rain when I was in here typing the post, it started to get cloudy and overcast here, when I went back to the set up and could not get the signal back on the old Skoal can! I would say that the clouds and overcast before the rain killed any hopes of trying to get it in better, I wanted a stable picture and quality but for the J Rig I had going, it just did not happen!

I will attempt to try again though, I still have everything marked where to try again with the same positions as before, if you have any ideas on how to improve the stuff I used in this experiment I would love to hear different things to try to see if it could be better.

The thing is it defies everything that is right to work!

starman345
posted a video on a homemade dish overseas the other day on one of the threads that I have seen before and one guy there had an interesting theory about freezing the LNB's to get performance out of them. I wonder if I could try that to see if I get an improvement on the snuff lid!

Here is that link: youtube.com/watch?v=Q0JFP7NFx3s


I am glad I did not give up, next time I will be thinking ahead with a camera, video and the laptop outside recording into my PVR software! Just was not thinking ahead too far and who really would have thought it would have worked to set up such things! I will post anything I do or try next time on my YouTube Channel! The name is the same as my Member name here!

youtube.com/user/FTABMan0

I am still amazed that it worked at all to tell you the truth! I am still waiting on some expert to chime in on the thread to explain how it did! The CDR was not bent or modified in anyway, it kind of makes you frustrated in a way on actually bouncing signal off something so small and sometimes we have trouble finding the darn things with KU dishes!

The rain here stopped me from trying anything else; I wanted to try numerous things to see if I could do it again. I have a candy can that is bigger than the CDR and bet that will be not a problem!

Things used here to hold everything in place is what I wanted to tell what I used for I forgot to post that part before, I was so excited! An old tripod with the Lowes conduit clamps held the Invacom in place to keep it from moving around. I used the old brick for the dish support and duct tape to hold the CDR where I wanted.

I wondered if there would be any difference in a DVD or a DVD-RW? The RW’s have a different coating on them, now it looks like I am going to have to try that next! Plates would be out for they are larger than the pie pan. I really don’t know what I will try next but you guys have a go at it. I can think of all types of things to try but I will sit out and give somebody else a try!

If you know something about focus points or a bit about how LNB’s work, I mean we all have an idea how they work but not really into how they actually work in depth give this thread a buzz in, I would like to hear the theory on how this far fetched thing jumped off today and worked!

The signal was really phenomenal in the Lid version and if you did not see it for yourself, you would have a real time not believing it, I really have a hard time myself but it did work!

Found a subject for Access America Sat-Talk show for Friday!

Mike or Ralf, love to hear what your thoughts are! Keep in mind it worked!

Mr. Iceberg or Mr. "LNB" Anole, your turn on theory, love to hear you men buzz in!

K E V I N

 

[SatelliteAV]

One of the most interesting antennas that we have tested is the LX2000 tube antenna. The unit is linear polarity, 30 inches in length and the gain is equal to a 50cm dish.