Now it is time to write DISH Again.

S

scottrell

SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 29, 2005
40
0
CPanther95 said:
If it were determined that the ATSC standards apply to HDTV as a whole in the industry - then they would be breaking the law. It would be illegal to call it HD when it isn't. More important than refunds would be the requirement that they couldn't call it HD - that would be all it takes.
However, it has yet to be shown that they are under any obligations to adhere to the ATSC standards. While they used to reference those standards when defining HD, they no longer advertise those standards as the exclusive determinant of what qualifies as HD. Until someone (FTC) determines that the ATSC standards are the generally held standards in the industry - and the standards that shall be used when marketing HDTV - a lawsuit would lead nowhere, except to the degree that the press picks up on it and educates the public.
But is false advertising breaking the law per se, or must there be more to it-i.e. fraud?

The obligation to adhere to ATSC standards is implied when they use the terms in which the ATSC has been granted the power to define (but have they been granted this power?).

It appears that HD has been given a definition to be 1920x1080i or 1280x720p at the different frame rates. I haven't seen anything else that changes this definition. Until this issue, there hasn't been a cause to fight for the sanctity of this definition.

-sc
 
goaliebob99

goaliebob99

SatelliteGuys Master
Supporting Founder
Aug 5, 2004
14,482
518
-.-. .... .. -.-. .- --. ---
IF this isnt False advertising then i dont know what is :)
 

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CPanther95

CPanther95

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Supporting Founder
Mar 25, 2004
1,073
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Charlotte, NC
It would only be false advertising if those standards were accepted "officially" by the government. Once that happens, deliberately degrading the signal and sending it out as HD would constitute fraud.

My point is, technically it isn't false advertising until those standards are accepted.

D* used to define HD using the ATSC definitions specifically listing the full resolutions (1920x1080i and 1280x720p)

since then, they have progressively neutered the definition while gradually lessening the significance of the ATSC when discussing HDTV standards. Unless they are nailed down to a particular standard they are free to define HDTV however they choose.

Look at the following D* webpages over the last couple of years since they started backing away from the ATSC (also note the bottom and middle where they state that the ATSC establishes the standard for digital television):

http://web.archive.org/web/20040204022124/www.directv.com/DTVAPP/imagine/HDTVQA.dsp

to this (take note at the bottom):
http://web.archive.org/web/20030608075221/www.directv.com/DTVAPP/imagine/HDTVQA.jsp

and the current website has this:
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/imagine/HDTV_faq.jsp

also note the current definition in the HD Glossary for ATSC and the addition of the word "voluntary" (standards) here:
http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/imagine/HDTV_glossary.jsp
 
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spindoctor

spindoctor

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 5, 2005
174
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Goaliebob ..yes it is absolutely false advertising, even if they changed the article

that alone should make them refund all money paid for HD equipment or replace them

with new to own free of charge no lease.
 
Pils

Pils

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Supporting Founder
Nov 17, 2004
227
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I previously noticed a blatant false advertisement on their website showing a 921/510 with NBR advertised. As soon as I pointed this out to ceo@dishnetwork and the BBB, they immediately switched the website within the next day. Wish the same could happen here and flip the 1920 x 1080i switch on.
 
D

discodol

SatelliteGuys Family
Mar 7, 2004
36
0
Wilton Manors, FL
Email To Charlie

Dear Charlie, I really like the upgrade path plan you talked about last night, I will be upgrading my 942 and 2 811s as soon as the rebate becomes effective. I must say however that the PQ of your HD Charlie Chat was lousy! I did not spend 5K on a HDTV and over 100.00 a month for my Dish subscription to get anything less than a top quality HD picture. HD Lite just does not cut it. All you have to do is watch HD NET then switch to one of the VOOM channels to see the difference. If you truly want to be the “leader” in HD then you will very quickly find a way to broadcast all of our HD at1920x1080i. I think the VOOM spokesman made it clear that they are providing true HD content, you need to pass that along to us like VOOM did when they were VOOM. Anything less is simply not acceptable! In my book whoever delivers the best PQ gets my dollars.
 
BrianMis

BrianMis

Original PIT Dweller
Mar 29, 2005
5,898
2,897
Western PA
spindoctor said:
Goaliebob ..yes it is absolutely false advertising, even if they changed the article

that alone should make them refund all money paid for HD equipment or replace them

with new to own free of charge no lease.


Not that I am giving a nod to HD-Lite, but the fact is The core HD Pak channels are still at full rez. I don't know if they will stay that way, but right now there are 1920x1080i channels on dish.
 
K

kluken

SatelliteGuys Pro
Dec 20, 2004
326
7
gutter said:
That is correct but 1280 X 1080I not 1920 X 1080i. A 1/3 less picture information. In short, Less filling HD. That is what we are all pissed about.:(
We have to write and flood them now. We can't just let Scott fight our battles for us. We have to be clear and fight our own battles with every breath we take of HDLITE they shove down the pike. Tell them you want quality not quantity.

The problem is we are writing, but Dish is blowing us off. Wouldn't you? We all complain and keep buying their HD packages. What we really need to do is organize a HD boycott, We all need to drop our HD packages for one month and follow it up with a letter explaining we are dropping our HD due to the HD-Lite issue. Surew it si a $5 fee, but you recover some of that in the 1 month savings. We lived without HD this long giving it up for one month might help sway them. Nothing else will matter when we all keep signing up for the additional HD stuff.
 
Drone35

Drone35

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jun 3, 2005
564
0
Amarillo,TX
kluken said:
The problem is we are writing, but Dish is blowing us off. Wouldn't you? We all complain and keep buying their HD packages. What we really need to do is organize a HD boycott, We all need to drop our HD packages for one month and follow it up with a letter explaining we are dropping our HD due to the HD-Lite issue. Surew it si a $5 fee, but you recover some of that in the 1 month savings. We lived without HD this long giving it up for one month might help sway them. Nothing else will matter when we all keep signing up for the additional HD stuff.
Kluken, u are correct and I agree with u a 100%, but figure the odds getting everybody to do it, but if we did it would deffently get their attention! Money talks and bull**** walks! :)
 
G

gutter

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
May 26, 2004
1,510
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Drone35 said:
Kluken, u are correct and I agree with u a 100%, but figure the odds getting everybody to do it, but if we did it would deffently get their attention! Money talks and bull**** walks! :)


These are all lame excuses to not sit down and write your heart out to DISH or the media or other sites. Anyone that will listen. Most boycotts never work in the long term and a boycott or cancellation by most is wishful thinking at best. Never will happen. Our best chance is to let DISH know this matters by embarrassing them in front of the media and their competition. Until FIOS or other more efficient bandwith technology is available we got to fight the battle face to face. See what Scott said. You have to enter the fight or be like those at D* who just complained on this and other forums and took it.
 
K

kluken

SatelliteGuys Pro
Dec 20, 2004
326
7
gutter said:
These are all lame excuses to not sit down and write your heart out to DISH or the media or other sites. Anyone that will listen. Most boycotts never work in the long term and a boycott or cancellation by most is wishful thinking at best. Never will happen. Our best chance is to let DISH know this matters by embarrassing them in front of the media and their competition. Until FIOS or other more efficient bandwith technology is available we got to fight the battle face to face. See what Scott said. You have to enter the fight or be like those at D* who just complained on this and other forums and took it.

I have written, and will write again, but in the end Dish will not change unless it impacts them financially and that means loosing customers of revenue from HD. As you mentioned, until there is greater alternatives they can get away with this. Also most average consumers don't know anything about HD. They are used to looking at SD on their big screens now see HD Lite and are impressed. My OTA Analog looks better than any of their over compressed SD stuff, but we all put up with it.
 
G

gutter

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
May 26, 2004
1,510
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kluken said:
I have written, and will write again, .

I am glad you wrote. I like you hope it is worth the effort. I don't disagree with anything you say. I know people who have an HDTV connected to a standard cable box and think that everything they get is HD. Education has to set in and the industry and government has done a piss poor job of that.
 
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S

Sarang

SatelliteGuys Pro
Sep 30, 2005
315
0
I'm going to write and complain but for me on boycotting I don't know if I can take that risk. I was chatting with someone about HD and right now I get the HD Pak for $10 a month and I'm worried if I drop it next time I can pick up HD I'll be forced to take the HD Lite channels along with the full rez. one's.
I was even asking someone if I buy a ViP 622 will they try to shove the Dish HD pack down my throat and then will I have to get a 811 for a short term solution to keep just the HD Pak. Thoughts?
 
waltinvt

waltinvt

Supporting Founder
Supporting Founder
Feb 16, 2004
3,439
1
Vermont
kluken said:
The problem is we are writing, but Dish is blowing us off. Wouldn't you? We all complain and keep buying their HD packages. What we really need to do is organize a HD boycott, We all need to drop our HD packages for one month and follow it up with a letter explaining we are dropping our HD due to the HD-Lite issue. Surew it si a $5 fee, but you recover some of that in the 1 month savings. We lived without HD this long giving it up for one month might help sway them. Nothing else will matter when we all keep signing up for the additional HD stuff.

First thing in this thread that makes sense.

Also, you can go after "E" on "breaking the law", as in an attorney general issue - maybe even get them to change the acronym from "HD" to "HDLite" or something but they could really give a rip about that because the competition isn't doing any better and they would have to call it something else too. Dish has a history of skirting along the edge of what the FCC has allowed anyway.

No, if you want to get their attention, go for a civil lawsuit that could have possibilities of real $$$ conciquences.
 
T

trafter

SatelliteGuys Family
Sep 8, 2003
79
0
Unfortunately, my real choices for HD are either DISH or DirecTv. My local cable company carries a grand total of 4 HD channels. (Anybody ever heard of Millenium Cable?) Otherwise, I would vote with my feet. I do like the upgrade deals though - I'm thinking of putting a HD-DVR in the master bedroom as well as the living room!
 
G

gutter

Thread Starter
SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
May 26, 2004
1,510
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trafter said:
Unfortunately, my real choices for HD are either DISH or DirecTv. My local cable company carries a grand total of 4 HD channels. (Anybody ever heard of Millenium Cable?) Otherwise, I would vote with my feet. I do like the upgrade deals though - I'm thinking of putting a HD-DVR in the master bedroom as well as the living room!

I know how you feel. None of my local OTA even broadcast HD and the Adelphia only carries 4 HD channels in my area. That is why I feel it is time to fight. I plan to send emails everyday until I get an answer.
 
Weezknight

Weezknight

SatelliteGuys Pro
Jan 10, 2006
628
0
Philly 'Burbs, PA
kluken said:
The problem is we are writing, but Dish is blowing us off. Wouldn't you? We all complain and keep buying their HD packages. What we really need to do is organize a HD boycott, We all need to drop our HD packages for one month and follow it up with a letter explaining we are dropping our HD due to the HD-Lite issue. Surew it si a $5 fee, but you recover some of that in the 1 month savings. We lived without HD this long giving it up for one month might help sway them. Nothing else will matter when we all keep signing up for the additional HD stuff.

Turning off the HD subscriptions is about the only option. But where is it really going to get us? In the end they'll come back and say they are no longer down-rezzing everything, but in exchange all the HD packs are now an additonal $10-20 than originally thought. We'll pay for it in the end (literally and figuratively).
 
S

scottrell

SatelliteGuys Family
Dec 29, 2005
40
0
CPanther95 said:
It would only be false advertising if those standards were accepted "officially" by the government. Once that happens, deliberately degrading the signal and sending it out as HD would constitute fraud.
My point is, technically it isn't false advertising until those standards are accepted.
D* used to define HD using the ATSC definitions specifically listing the full resolutions (1920x1080i and 1280x720p)
since then, they have progressively neutered ...
D* and DN and cable can put all sorts of definitions on their site, but it does not mean it relieves them of holding to the *real* definition.

What we're trying to figure out is who is the owner of the definition. By appearances, it looks like the FCC has delegated that to the ATSC. But does the FCC have that power? In most things DTV related, it certainly does. But what usually happens in the real world and in court, is that these sorts of things are determined by the commonly accepted use of the term and not necessarily the literal definition.

Again, D* and DN don't get to make these definitions unless we let them. We're trying not to let them.

I'm hoping that the FCC hears our case and makes a point of defining HD, which should end the practice of calling 1280x1080i an HD resolution. The providers are pretty good at following the directives of the FCC simply because they don't have any other option.

-sc
 
CPanther95

CPanther95

SatelliteGuys Pro
Supporting Founder
Mar 25, 2004
1,073
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Charlotte, NC
scottrell said:
D* and DN and cable can put all sorts of definitions on their site, but it does not mean it relieves them of holding to the *real* definition.

That's the point, nobody has established the "real" definition, officially. Until they do, the DBS companies will continue to define it as they see fit.
 

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