PS3 security broken for good?

[diogen]

When it comes to security, Sony has only bad luck.
Whether doing alone (PS3) or in company (CSS, AACS).

It looks like private keys have been calculated for the console
PSGroove.com - Sony's PS3 Security is Epic Fail - Videos Within

Discussion on /.
http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/12/29/204253/Playstation-3-Code-Signing-Cracked-For-Good

If this doesn't get plugged, PS3 will become the first "open" console in the industry!

Diogen.

 

[Heavie]

Just like microsoft with the original xbox, once the ps3 gets hack, then sony will sell more ps3. The original xbox was almost a failure, until modchips was released that took total control over the system. Than the xbox became a must have for gamer and hackers, because the modchip turn the xbox to media center/ PC or a server. My opinions is sony study the ways the xbox was used and planted the info into the ps3. For example, the first thing everyone with a modded xbox did, was install other os on the system. Sony release the ps3 to run other os. Second example was sony notice that everyone with a modded xbox. Replaced the original 8gig hard drive with a larger hard drive to install home brew games, videos and music. Also with broadband connection on the xbox, you where able to surf the net. That's why the ps3 is more user friendly when adding hard drive and has support external hard drive or flash drive to transfer data to the ps3 and the ps3 has it's own browser. The xbox360 is a very closed system, compared to a ps3.

Like the member of failoverflow said, once you kill off installing other os on the original ps3. Sony brought attention to the ps3. The jailbreak will help sony sell more unit now, because everyone will want a jailbroken ps3 to install and play pirate games. But, put a hurt on purchase of games. Even 360 version of the game will lose sells, because you can play the pirate version on the ps3.

The first open console was the original xbox.

 

[diogen]

My opinions is sony study the ways the xbox was used and planted the info into the ps3.

That's a nice theory but has never been proven (statistically speaking) in practice.
Especially since consoles is a razor&blades business: the console is sold at cost with games having 50%+ profit.

A hacked PS3 doesn't make Sony money. Period.
Hence, hacking should be eliminated. If not possible, it should be EOL-ed (what MS did with the original xbox).

Diogen.

 

[rocket69]

The Point of the overflow is linux not piracy. Piracy is working prior to them doing any hax and now they can boot the systems into linx with out using dongle. the linx will not play any ps3 games as it will remove the game os and use the linux .

True they need to sell games to make money but now the cost and RD for the ps3 is payed off so now sony is making money on each one.

 

[diogen]

The Point of the overflow is linux not piracy ...

Right, and so was DeCSS...

If profits from selling consoles only is all Sony can count on going forward, I don't think it will live to see next Xmas.

Diogen.

 

[Heavie]

The Point of the overflow is linux not piracy. Piracy is working prior to them doing any hax and now they can boot the systems into linx with out using dongle. the linx will not play any ps3 games as it will remove the game os and use the linux .

Yeah right, I think that is a lot bull. Overflow was capable of downgrading the ps3 to a firmware that allow you to install linux and the stop the ps3 from firmware checking. But, they didn't stop there. They went for the whole system that includes keys and all the info that allow them to do whatever they want.

 

[Heavie]

I'm not going to go into details about sony profit. I do know consumers seem to want a console more, after it's been hacked.

 

[diogen]

They went for the whole system that includes keys and all the info that allow them to do whatever they want.

And this is mostly not because those are bad guys but because this can be done (remember first Wall Street?)
It can be hard to believe but it is true.

I do know consumers seem to want a console more, after it's been hacked.

Most likely.
But very quickly one of two things happen: either the hack gets invalidated or the manufacturing of the console stops.
The later usually triggers a jump in ebay prices, etc.

But Sony won't allow this to become the next status-quo...

DIogen.

 

[aegrotatio]

The thing is this: at any time you purchase a new game, or get a copy of a new game, and it contains code to check the status of the machine, the risk of your machine being "bricked" by Sony, Nintendo, or Microsoft increases. Inside the processor package of PS3, XBOX 360, and Nintendo Wii, are kill switches. They are incremented for each firmware release, so if you downgrade to an earlier release, the system will be able to tell, and then burn the rest of them out, thus bricking the console. They're a part of the IBM PowerPC processor package in all three systems. I don't think any of the companies have sent "magic bullets" to kill the hacked machines yet.

The XBOX 360 has the same feature. If you intend on "hacking" your machine, of course, if you allowed on the internet using the unhacked Sony firmware, or using a retail game, or even then a copied game could do this to you.

Usually when hacking a console you're asked to downgrade to an earlier firmware release, and that's one of the ways that your machine can be "bricked."

These are discussed in some detail in a long video. Search for "xbox 360 security video" for the deets.

If you do not ever intend to run valid retail games or pirated games and only want to use homebrew software, you're not going to be bricked.

 

[diogen]

I don't think any of the companies have sent "magic bullets" to kill the hacked machines yet.

I wonder why?
I keep hearing these kill-switch stories from smartphones, to blu-ray players (BD+), to consoles...

Here is my theory: it's a tale.
Yes, a kill-switch can be implemented in theory, but a)nobody but the inventors know how; and b)nobody wants to know!
In practice it exists only as the last (useless) defence: to scare.
(Well, maybe to kill a stolen device).

And here is why: kill-switch is software.
Nobody can do software 100% right. Sony even less so than most others.
And kill-switch done wrong means bricked legitimate (!!) players. And that means PR disaster.

And Sony knows what a PR disaster means. Exhibit 1: rootkit.
And they also know that the rootkit fiasco will be peanuts in comparison to a PS3 kill-switch going rogue...

Diogen.

 

[diogen]

When it rains it pours...
Hacker Claims To Have The PS3's Front Door Keys

Crucially, because this key lies at the very heart of the PS3 hardware itself, it appears that if it has been cracked, it will be almost impossible to repair (even via firmware updates), as altering the existing key would run the risk of rendering all existing PS3 software inoperable.

Diogen.

 

[diogen]

First custom firmware released
First custom firmware arrives for hacked PS3s

More in the "proof of concept" category, just laying the groundwork...

Now the question is what can Sony do with the hacked consoles.
Banning from online gaming (just like Microsoft did with cheaters)? Maybe not even that...

Diogen.

 

[digiblur]

Just like microsoft with the original xbox, once the ps3 gets hack, then sony will sell more ps3. The original xbox was almost a failure, until modchips was released that took total control over the system. Than the xbox became a must have for gamer and hackers, because the modchip turn the xbox to media center/ PC or a server. My opinions is sony study the ways the xbox was used and planted the info into the ps3. For example, the first thing everyone with a modded xbox did, was install other os on the system. Sony release the ps3 to run other os. Second example was sony notice that everyone with a modded xbox. Replaced the original 8gig hard drive with a larger hard drive to install home brew games, videos and music. Also with broadband connection on the xbox, you where able to surf the net. That's why the ps3 is more user friendly when adding hard drive and has support external hard drive or flash drive to transfer data to the ps3 and the ps3 has it's own browser. The xbox360 is a very closed system, compared to a ps3.

Like the member of failoverflow said, once you kill off installing other os on the original ps3. Sony brought attention to the ps3. The jailbreak will help sony sell more unit now, because everyone will want a jailbroken ps3 to install and play pirate games. But, put a hurt on purchase of games. Even 360 version of the game will lose sells, because you can play the pirate version on the ps3.

The first open console was the original xbox.

The original XBox was awesome. Very easy to mod after the fact. Solder a couple of points and flash away. No chip needed.

I had three of them... two of them I got for free since they had various problems and I fixed them. Excellent media servers!

 

[rocket69]

Right, and so was DeCSS...

If profits from selling consoles only is all Sony can count on going forward, I don't think it will live to see next Xmas.

Diogen.

piracy has been around since the first systems. had a cool loader on my NES that would use 1.4 disks to play off of.

This problem wont kill sony. Piracy on psone was a walk in the park for the first 2 versions later ones required a chip at one point sony made it so you could not play a original on a chipped system but if you had a bootleg it would work after a patch.

Ps2 is still a top selling system and has been chipped for the full run.

 

[diogen]

NES as hardware was never sold at a loss.

PS2 was a moneymaker for Sony like no product in company history, neither before nor since.
PS3 drove Sony into a multi billion $$ hole they most likely haven't climbed out of yet...

See the difference?

Diogen.

 

[rocket69]

True sony lost money on the first 6.5 versions of ps3 from $200-300 each unit but now the cost have fliped and they are making money on the hardware . it will take them some time to recoup the cost of the first batches 3-4bilion. Money form games to movies is the driving force for sony.

Piracy is a problem in usa but its a small percentage of people that do it. 20-15% and of those some still buy original . In other places like china now with the cat out the bag and dongles runing for $6usd or less and full hard drives openly sold its going to be 90% bootleg and 10% original if that. China was the first country to bootleg a full car.

 

[diogen]

I am not discussing the (a)morality of Chinese piracy. That is a topic by itself and not as black and white as it might look...
I don't think this problem will kill Sony either (although having a choice between seeing Sony dead or alive I'd pick the former).

I'm saying the console business as run by Sony and Microsoft is a razor and blade business.
That means selling games (blades) is the crucial component: they are the actual and only moneymaker.
Sony (and MS) does not need the business if no games are bought over the life of the console.
IIRC, somewhere between 20-30 games were bought by each PS2 owner...

Go to a torrent site like ThePirateBay and count how many high definition movies are offered for download.
That is the consequence of the DRM protection of the Blu-ray discs being hacked (AACS and BD+) some 2 years ago.
In this case the actual implementation was clean (no stupid Sony random number generator) but it was hacked anyway...

Now imagine the same number of PS3 games available for download.
I don't think PS3 has that many so you can safely assume all games will be there...
How many gamers - being mostly under 25, i.e. Napster-age - will shell out $30+ instead of downloading one?
I'd say that prediction that Sony PS3 profits would be cut in half would be very optimistic...

And here is the point: all this happened because of crappy cryptography!!
The biggest surprise is how it survived that long...

"Never assume malice when stupidity will suffice"... Very much so...

Diogen.

EDIT:
I think Sony has two options: to plug the hole (if doable, doubtful) or accelerate the release of the PS4.

 

[diogen]

This can't be a good sign
Sony asks for restraining order against Geohot, fail0verflow over PS3 exploits -- Engadget

Or the other way around, depends how you look at it...

Certainly means the hack can't be easily plugged.

This time Sony didn't even hide since only PS3 is affected.

Diogen.

 

[yourbeliefs]

Sony could always take the Xbox Route..

Report: Sony could remotely disable jailbroken PS3s | Joystiq

 

[diogen]

UPDATED:
Sony asks for restraining order against Geohot, fail0verflow over PS3 exploits -- Engadget

GeoHot is trying to comply.
legal trouble

The good part is, the code has been released earlier.
This is most likely the reason Sony didn't serve a C&D letter, like they did with DVD Decryptor and RipIt4Me.
Those programs, although free, didn't have the code opened and so they just faded away for good.

The latest PS3 hack not only made the code available, its most significant contribution is proof it can be done!
Just like DeCSS.

Let the games begin...

Diogen.