RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception

[jnardone]

I really don't see how you are getting that from the regs I quoted. VOOM provides a service but they also sell equipment and that equipment has requirements under the fcc rules. Why? - because the Voom box is TV broadcast receiver (in addition to being a satellite signal receiver) and all TV broadcast receivers (as defined in the regs) sold in the US have the requirements listed in the regs. If you doubt me call the FCC and ask. I called today and they explained the rule to me exactly as I have explained it in my messages.

 

[lets_c_1]

[VOOM] Re: OTA reception

By the way, I did call Voom yesterday, and they took my information
and said that someone would call me with 72 hours....I will let you
know what happens.





------------------------

 

[Stan Sexton]

Satellite may be differently regulated by the FCC than earthbound OTA. Just ask Howard Stern.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------

 

[jnardone]

Satellite may be different but if the box has a OTA TV broadcast receiver function then the box has to meet certain requirements - such as being able to display all available channels, etc...

It comes down to this - VOOM can not charge you a monthly fee to receive broadcast signals which the government says must be free. Once you purchase the Voom box you do not have to pay extra for the OTA reception.

 

[cutestew1962]

[VOOM] Re: OTA reception

My thought is that VOOM disables the programable card in the
receiver which disables all features including changing channels for
the OTA signals. I think VOOM needs to provide a card configured to
allow control of the OTA signals while leaving the sat dead.
Especially for those who purchased equipment!





------------------------

 

[Bob Mankin]

How did they explain the rule to you? All I see is the cut and paste of the
regs, which are not clear to begin with.

There are plenty of D* people who don't get much OTA support. Why haven't
they risen up with a class action if the box has to provide it? What about
the people that can't receive it for line-of-sight antenna issues? Where's
the clause that excuses them?

I agree that if you purchased you should end up with at least an OTA tuner
for ethical reasons, if nothing else. But I don't see where those regs
specifically require that.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jnardone [mailto:satguys2004@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
>
> I really don't see how you are getting that from the regs I quoted.
> VOOM provides a service but they also sell equipment and that
> equipment has requirements under the fcc rules. Why? -
> because the Voom box is TV broadcast receiver (in addition to
> being a satellite signal receiver) and all TV broadcast
> receivers (as defined in the regs) sold in the US have the
> requirements listed in the regs. If you doubt me call the
> FCC and ask. I called today and they explained the rule to
> me exactly as I have explained it in my messages.
>
>
> --
> jnardone



------------------------

 

[jnardone]

They said that if a company sells a piece of equipment that acts as a TV Broadcast receiver as one of its functions then that receiver is required to display the TV broadcast signal if the signal is available. The equipment manufacturer doesn't have to supply the signal but if the equipment hooks to an antenna and signals are received then all the signals received must be displayed. There are other requirements - such that it must be able to receive both VHF and UHF signals, that it can not exclude channels, and a few other things that don't matter to VOOM.

The purpose of the regulations is to prevent an equipment manufacturer from being able to control the reception of the public airwaves - Imagine a case where Sony didn't like something that CBS news said so they started selling TV's that would not receive CBS channels.

VOOM is trying to do something just a bad - you either always subscribe to their satellite service or they block you ability to receive public broadcasts.

My understanding of the Dish receivers it that your are able to receive OTA broadcasts without subscribing as long as you modify some of the settings in the setup menu.

 

[Eric]

But that is a Voom box for Voom Service. Yes you purchased the hardware.
You canceled Voom service so that part of the service is also
canceled/removed. It was/is an OTA receiver with the VOOM service. NO Voom
= No OTA reception on the VOOM receiver

Eric

_____

From: jnardone [mailto:satguys2004@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:15 AM
To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception



They said that if a company sells a piece of equipment that acts as a TV
Broadcast receiver as one of its functions then that receiver is
required to display the TV broadcast signal if the signal is available.
The equipment manufacturer doesn't have to supply the signal but if
the equipment hooks to an antenna and signals are received then all the
signals received must be displayed. There are other requirements - such
that it must be able to receive both VHF and UHF signals, that it can
not exclude channels, and a few other things that don't matter to
VOOM.

The purpose of the regulations is to prevent an equipment manufacturer
from being able to control the reception of the public airwaves -
Imagine a case where Sony didn't like something that CBS news said so
they started selling TV's that would not receive CBS channels.

VOOM is trying to do something just a bad - you either always subscribe
to their satellite service or they block you ability to receive public
broadcasts.

My understanding of the Dish receivers it that your are able to receive
OTA broadcasts without subscribing as long as you modify some of the
settings in the setup menu.


--
jnardone
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message was posted via http://www.satelliteguys.us by jnardone



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------

 

[jnardone]

But that is a Voom box for Voom Service. Yes you purchased the hardware.
You canceled Voom service so that part of the service is also
canceled/removed. It was/is an OTA receiver with the VOOM service. NO Voom
= No OTA reception on the VOOM receiver

Eric

That is exactly the point - VOOM can not, by FCC rules, make you pay for OTA service. TV broadcasts on the VHF and UHF channels must be free once you buy a device that is a TV broadcast receiver. VOOM had to have known this when they started selling boxes that act as TV broadcast receivers and now they are using their ability to block reception of OTA broadcasts to keep people from cancelling their satellite service.

 

[jnardone]

Wilt - Could you reply about the OTA?

Wilt:
Are there plans to modify the VOOM firmware so that de-authorized boxes will retain their TV broadcast receiver function. If not - could you explain why?
Thanks,
Joseph

P.S. I have no plans to leave VOOM but their lack of communication requires that I have a back up plan in place.

 

[thegrod]

Well the FCC has enforcement and penalty powers. Did they indicate any
interest in pursuing the matter with VOOM?
----- Original Message -----
From: "jnardone" <satguys2004@yahoo.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception


>
>
> I really don't see how you are getting that from the regs I quoted.
> VOOM provides a service but they also sell equipment and that equipment
> has requirements under the fcc rules. Why? - because the Voom box is TV
> broadcast receiver (in addition to being a satellite signal receiver)
> and all TV broadcast receivers (as defined in the regs) sold in the US
> have the requirements listed in the regs. If you doubt me call the FCC
> and ask. I called today and they explained the rule to me exactly as I
> have explained it in my messages.
>
>
> --
> jnardone
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was posted via http://www.satelliteguys.us by jnardone
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------

 

[thegrod]

Not if you own the receiver unless they are willing to pay you back the OTA
should continue to work.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric" <etoop@hotmail.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception


>
> I read it as the OTA's are provided and the tuner at no extra charge. But
> but tuner is part of the Voom package. You cancel and they have every
> right
> to disable that feature. Yeah I think it sucks. As for the FCC reg
> below.
> That won't apply to VOOM. The tuner was part of the service, you cancel
> Voom and the receiver is canceled as well. No where does it read that the
> tuner must still be accessible to the user if the service is canceled. As
> long as you are a VOOM Subscriber the below would apply
>
> ~Eric
>
> _____
>
> From: thegrod [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:47 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
> It seems like VOOM needs a refresher in FCC regs. I can see how a rental
> box can be turned off completely for non-payment, but how can they
> legitimately think it's OK to turn off the OTA on a receiver that they no
> longer own? I guess that until someone goes after them legally they will
> be
>
> right....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jnardone" <satguys2004@yahoo.com>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:09 AM
> Subject: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Again:
>>
>> The FCC reg is Section 15.117 regarding television receivers. Since
>> the VOOM box was sold as both a satellite receiver and a television
>> receiver it is subject to the regulations regarding television
>> receivers.
>>
>> ...The reference in this section to TV broadcast receivers also
>> includes devices, such as TV interface devices, that incorporate the
>> tuner portion of a TV broadcast receiver and that are equipped with an
>> antenna or antenna terminals that can be used for the off-the-air
>> reception of TV broadcast signals....
>>
>> ...TV broadcast receivers shall be capable of adequately receiving all
>> channels allocated by the Commission to the television broadcast
>> service......
>>
>> ...TV broadcast receivers are required to provide useable picture and
>> sound commensurate with their video and audio capabilities when
>> receiving digital
>> television signals..
>>
>>
>> --
>> jnardone
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was posted via http://www.satelliteguys.us by jnardone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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------------------------

 

[Bob Mankin]

ADD-ON service. There's your key distinction. If you were not charged any
difference for having the feature, there is nothing to "refund". Someone
needs to pull out their contract/warranty info for the purchased boxes and
read the fine print.

Unless the law is -very- specific, and what I read was not, you have no legs
to stand on. Pursue it legally if you have the free time and money to burn.
Or just buy another OTA tuner and be done with it.

D* and E* receivers have surely run into this issue already. Someone needs
to do more homework on this issue. Everything posted today has been
knee-jerk and this society is a little too litigation happy as it is, IMO.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thegrod [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:32 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
> Not if you own the receiver unless they are willing to pay
> you back the OTA should continue to work.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric" <etoop@hotmail.com>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:36 PM
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
> >
> > I read it as the OTA's are provided and the tuner at no
> extra charge.
> > But but tuner is part of the Voom package. You cancel and
> they have
> > every right to disable that feature. Yeah I think it
> sucks. As for
> > the FCC reg below.
> > That won't apply to VOOM. The tuner was part of the service, you
> > cancel Voom and the receiver is canceled as well. No where does it
> > read that the tuner must still be accessible to the user if the
> > service is canceled. As long as you are a VOOM Subscriber
> the below
> > would apply
> >
> > ~Eric
> >
> > _____
> >



------------------------

 

[thegrod]

OTA is not VOOM service. No way, no how. VOOM pays nothing for it unless
they have provided an OTA antenna but they do not pay the locals
anything....So they can't own what is not something they have not bought.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric" <etoop@hotmail.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception


>
> But that is a Voom box for Voom Service. Yes you purchased the hardware.
> You canceled Voom service so that part of the service is also
> canceled/removed. It was/is an OTA receiver with the VOOM service. NO
> Voom
> = No OTA reception on the VOOM receiver
>
> Eric
>
> _____
>
> From: jnardone [mailto:satguys2004@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:15 AM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
>
> They said that if a company sells a piece of equipment that acts as a TV
> Broadcast receiver as one of its functions then that receiver is
> required to display the TV broadcast signal if the signal is available.
> The equipment manufacturer doesn't have to supply the signal but if
> the equipment hooks to an antenna and signals are received then all the
> signals received must be displayed. There are other requirements - such
> that it must be able to receive both VHF and UHF signals, that it can
> not exclude channels, and a few other things that don't matter to
> VOOM.
>
> The purpose of the regulations is to prevent an equipment manufacturer
> from being able to control the reception of the public airwaves -
> Imagine a case where Sony didn't like something that CBS news said so
> they started selling TV's that would not receive CBS channels.
>
> VOOM is trying to do something just a bad - you either always subscribe
> to their satellite service or they block you ability to receive public
> broadcasts.
>
> My understanding of the Dish receivers it that your are able to receive
> OTA broadcasts without subscribing as long as you modify some of the
> settings in the setup menu.
>
>
> --
> jnardone
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was posted via http://www.satelliteguys.us by jnardone
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VOOM/
>
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------

 

[berockin1]

[VOOM] Re: OTA reception

But if VOOM goes away what do they get out of disabling the OTA
portion of the receiver ? Where's the benefit ? what's gained ?
That would be like a deli owner closing up shop and wanting you to
return what you didn't finish for lunch.


--- In VOOM@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Mankin" <bob@c...> wrote:
> ADD-ON service. There's your key distinction. If you were not
charged any
> difference for having the feature, there is nothing to "refund".
Someone
> needs to pull out their contract/warranty info for the purchased
boxes and
> read the fine print.
>
> Unless the law is -very- specific, and what I read was not, you
have no legs
> to stand on. Pursue it legally if you have the free time and money
to burn.
> Or just buy another OTA tuner and be done with it.
>
> D* and E* receivers have surely run into this issue already.
Someone needs
> to do more homework on this issue. Everything posted today has been
> knee-jerk and this society is a little too litigation happy as it
is, IMO.
>
> Bob
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thegrod [mailto:bruceg@h...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:32 PM
> > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
> >
> >
> > Not if you own the receiver unless they are willing to pay
> > you back the OTA should continue to work.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Eric" <etoop@h...>
> > To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:36 PM
> > Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I read it as the OTA's are provided and the tuner at no
> > extra charge.
> > > But but tuner is part of the Voom package. You cancel and
> > they have
> > > every right to disable that feature. Yeah I think it
> > sucks. As for
> > > the FCC reg below.
> > > That won't apply to VOOM. The tuner was part of the service,
you
> > > cancel Voom and the receiver is canceled as well. No where
does it
> > > read that the tuner must still be accessible to the user if the
> > > service is canceled. As long as you are a VOOM Subscriber
> > the below
> > > would apply
> > >
> > > ~Eric
> > >
> > > _____
> > >





------------------------

 

[Bob Mankin]

Not suggesting there is any "benefit". Could be the hardware/sofware was not
designed to continue working beyond a shutoff of the main portion of the
box. The issue at question is whether that's legal. I haven't read anything
that say it isn't.

Remember that this is Motorola hardware. All the more reason that more
people than just Voom probably considered the legal implications of offering
the feature.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: berockin1 [mailto:berockin1@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:00 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
>
> But if VOOM goes away what do they get out of disabling the
> OTA portion of the receiver ? Where's the benefit ? what's gained ?
> That would be like a deli owner closing up shop and wanting
> you to return what you didn't finish for lunch.
>
>



------------------------

 

[jnardone]

I don't understand your argument at all. VOOM sold the box as a combinatinon satellite and TV broadcast receiver - they did not call it "satellite receiver with free TV broadcast receiver capability" or any such thing. Even if they had it still meets the specific definition in the rules specifically:

"The reference in this section to TV broadcast receivers also includes devices, such as TV interface devices, that incorporate the tuner portion of a TV broadcast receiver and that are equipped with an antenna or antenna terminals that can be used for the off-the-air reception of TV broadcast signals"

You can continue to disagree with me since you appear to want to but I did call the FCC and I did speak with someone familiar with the OTA capability of satellite boxes - both Dish's and VOOM's and they did say that VOOM can not turn off your ability to receive OTA broadcasts on a box that you own.

 

[thegrod]

I agree with you but here's the other side of the question....Can they be
made to turn on a box you own that is currently not authorized?
----- Original Message -----
From: "jnardone" <satguys2004@yahoo.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:54 PM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception


>
>
> I don't understand your argument at all. VOOM sold the box as a
> combinatinon satellite and TV broadcast receiver - they did not call it
> "satellite receiver with free TV broadcast receiver capability" or any
> such thing. Even if they had it still meets the specific definition in
> the rules specifically:
>
> "The reference in this section to TV broadcast receivers also includes
> devices, such as TV interface devices, that incorporate the tuner
> portion of a TV broadcast receiver and that are equipped with an
> antenna or antenna terminals that can be used for the off-the-air
> reception of TV broadcast signals"
>
> You can continue to disagree with me since you appear to want to but I
> did call the FCC and I did speak with someone familiar with the OTA
> capability of satellite boxes - both Dish's and VOOM's and they did say
> that VOOM can not turn off your ability to receive OTA broadcasts on a
> box that you own.
>
>
> --
> jnardone
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was posted via http://www.satelliteguys.us by jnardone
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------

 

[Bob Mankin]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jnardone [mailto:satguys2004@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:54 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>
>
>
> I don't understand your argument at all. VOOM sold the box as a
> combinatinon satellite and TV broadcast receiver - they did
> not call it "satellite receiver with free TV broadcast
> receiver capability" or any such thing. Even if they had it
> still meets the specific definition in the rules specifically:
>
> "The reference in this section to TV broadcast receivers also
> includes devices, such as TV interface devices, that
> incorporate the tuner portion of a TV broadcast receiver and
> that are equipped with an antenna or antenna terminals that
> can be used for the off-the-air reception of TV broadcast signals"
>
> You can continue to disagree with me since you appear to want
> to but I did call the FCC and I did speak with someone
> familiar with the OTA capability of satellite boxes - both
> Dish's and VOOM's and they did say that VOOM can not turn off
> your ability to receive OTA broadcasts on a box that you own.
>
>

If you'll re-read my post, you'll see that I was asking you for
clarification. You just offered it. I'm not here to argue. I read the law
and don't interpret as you do. I did not talk to the FCC(hence the reason I
asked in the first place)

So we would expect that either the FCC puts out a formal opinion on the
topic to clarify or Voom looks into the law, gets some legal advice and gets
back to the customer as they said they would.

Since this sat sale has to run through the FCC, I'm assuming the OTA issue
will be front and center at some point in time.

Bob



------------------------

 

[thegrod]

Bob Mankin,
I am not suggesting litigation, just the FCC address the issue. If the
politics don't preclude that from happening.
----- Original Message -----
From: "berockin1" <berockin1@yahoo.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:00 PM
Subject: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception


>
>
> But if VOOM goes away what do they get out of disabling the OTA
> portion of the receiver ? Where's the benefit ? what's gained ?
> That would be like a deli owner closing up shop and wanting you to
> return what you didn't finish for lunch.
>
>
> --- In VOOM@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Mankin" <bob@c...> wrote:
>> ADD-ON service. There's your key distinction. If you were not
> charged any
>> difference for having the feature, there is nothing to "refund".
> Someone
>> needs to pull out their contract/warranty info for the purchased
> boxes and
>> read the fine print.
>>
>> Unless the law is -very- specific, and what I read was not, you
> have no legs
>> to stand on. Pursue it legally if you have the free time and money
> to burn.
>> Or just buy another OTA tuner and be done with it.
>>
>> D* and E* receivers have surely run into this issue already.
> Someone needs
>> to do more homework on this issue. Everything posted today has been
>> knee-jerk and this society is a little too litigation happy as it
> is, IMO.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: thegrod [mailto:bruceg@h...]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 1:32 PM
>> > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
>> > Subject: Re: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>> >
>> >
>> > Not if you own the receiver unless they are willing to pay
>> > you back the OTA should continue to work.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Eric" <etoop@h...>
>> > To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 8:36 PM
>> > Subject: RE: [VOOM] Re: OTA reception
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > I read it as the OTA's are provided and the tuner at no
>> > extra charge.
>> > > But but tuner is part of the Voom package. You cancel and
>> > they have
>> > > every right to disable that feature. Yeah I think it
>> > sucks. As for
>> > > the FCC reg below.
>> > > That won't apply to VOOM. The tuner was part of the service,
> you
>> > > cancel Voom and the receiver is canceled as well. No where
> does it
>> > > read that the tuner must still be accessible to the user if the
>> > > service is canceled. As long as you are a VOOM Subscriber
>> > the below
>> > > would apply
>> > >
>> > > ~Eric
>> > >
>> > > _____
>> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------