Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem

G

Greg Hoffman

Guest
Original poster
[VOOM] Relocation problem

I am looking to buy a house in a golf course
community. In reading the covenants they state "no
satellite dishes or antennas". That would mean NO VOOM
for me. Is it legal to force someone to use cable for
their TV viewing? Anyone else have this problem?????

Any comments would be appreciated.



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------------------------
 
The FCC has clearly stated that it is not legal to
tell anyone they cannot have a satellite dish. The
only stipulation is that it is placed in your
exclusive use area. IE.... deck, porch.. check the FCC
website to print off this. I fight this issue alot
with apartment buildings.
--- Greg Hoffman <gregh16@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I am looking to buy a house in a golf course
> community. In reading the covenants they state "no
> satellite dishes or antennas". That would mean NO
> VOOM
> for me. Is it legal to force someone to use cable
> for
> their TV viewing? Anyone else have this
> problem?????
>
> Any comments would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>




__________________________________
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------------------------
 
If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common walls, etc. Federal
law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can superceed
Federal law.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
>
> I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
> reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
> antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal to
> force someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone else
> have this problem?????
>
> Any comments would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------
 
daniel dennis wrote:
>
> The FCC has clearly stated that it is not legal to
> tell anyone they cannot have a satellite dish. The
> only stipulation is that it is placed in your
> exclusive use area. IE.... deck, porch.. check the FCC
> website to print off this. I fight this issue alot
> with apartment buildings.


Federal law mandates it for apartments, but if you have homeowners'
covenents those are beyond the law in a sense. If you sign something
that says no dish, you can't have a dish. If you don't sign, you
won't be allowed to buy. I'd make sure I discuss this with the
homeowners association in detail...

/Sean





------------------------
 
There is nothing in the law which restricts it to apartments.

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Read the Q&A section for yourself.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Butler [mailto:sean@2sparrows.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:17 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
>
> daniel dennis wrote:
> >
> > The FCC has clearly stated that it is not legal to tell anyone they
> > cannot have a satellite dish. The only stipulation is that it is
> > placed in your exclusive use area. IE.... deck, porch..

> check the FCC
> > website to print off this. I fight this issue alot with apartment
> > buildings.

>
> Federal law mandates it for apartments, but if you have homeowners'
> covenents those are beyond the law in a sense. If you sign
> something that says no dish, you can't have a dish. If you
> don't sign, you won't be allowed to buy. I'd make sure I
> discuss this with the homeowners association in detail...
>
> /Sean
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------
 
I understand, however the FCC overrules any local or
state.... I have installed many in exclusive condo
areas where they were told the same thing. Work with
them, and it can be resolved.
--- Sean Butler <sean@2sparrows.org> wrote:
>
> daniel dennis wrote:
> >
> > The FCC has clearly stated that it is not legal to
> > tell anyone they cannot have a satellite dish. The
> > only stipulation is that it is placed in your
> > exclusive use area. IE.... deck, porch.. check the

> FCC
> > website to print off this. I fight this issue alot
> > with apartment buildings.

>
> Federal law mandates it for apartments, but if you
> have homeowners'
> covenents those are beyond the law in a sense. If
> you sign something
> that says no dish, you can't have a dish. If you
> don't sign, you
> won't be allowed to buy. I'd make sure I discuss
> this with the
> homeowners association in detail...
>
> /Sean
>
>
>
>




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------------------------
 
Bob Mankin wrote:
>
> There is nothing in the law which restricts it to apartments.
>
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
>
> Read the Q&A section for yourself.
>


Yeah but it's the same as if the homeowner rules say you can't paint
your house pink or you can't have a garage that faces the road or you
can't park a vehicle larger than 30' in your driveway, etc. While
none of those are against the law, they can be against the covenants
of the neighborhood.

If you don't like those rules you don't have to live there. I'd still
suggest talking to them, but typically they are very strict and
unlikely to change. :-( I myself live in a neighborhood with fairly
restrictive covenents, but luckily we are allowed satellite dishes --
there's no cable where we are!

If you love HD and Voom and they won't budge, then either look for a
new area to live or wait until 4/1 to find out what the future holds
for Voom and make a decision on relocation then.

/Sean








------------------------
 
This is a good response.

On Mar 22, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Bob Mankin wrote:

>
> There is nothing in the law which restricts it to apartments.
>
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
>
> Read the Q&A section for yourself.
>
> Bob
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sean Butler [mailto:sean@2sparrows.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:17 PM
> > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >
> >
> >
> > daniel dennis wrote:
> > >
> > > The FCC has clearly stated that it is not legal to tell anyone

> they
> > > cannot have a satellite dish. The only stipulation is that it is
> > > placed in your exclusive use area. IE.... deck, porch..

> > check the FCC
> > > website to print off this. I fight this issue alot with apartment
> > > buildings.

> >
> > Federal law mandates it for apartments, but if you have homeowners'
> > covenents those are beyond the law in a sense.  If you sign
> > something that says no dish, you can't have a dish.  If you
> > don't sign, you won't be allowed to buy.  I'd make sure I
> > discuss this with the homeowners association in detail...
> >
> > /Sean
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without
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> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >

>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






------------------------
 
The FCC doesn't have laws on house color. They do have laws on antenna
installation. It's as simple as that.

The law has been challenged in court and it stands. Any HOA with that on the
books(I live in an HOA, btw) is opening itself up to a legal problem.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sean Butler [mailto:sean@2sparrows.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:59 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
>
> Bob Mankin wrote:
> >
> > There is nothing in the law which restricts it to apartments.
> >
> > http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
> >
> > Read the Q&A section for yourself.
> >

>
> Yeah but it's the same as if the homeowner rules say you
> can't paint your house pink or you can't have a garage that
> faces the road or you can't park a vehicle larger than 30' in
> your driveway, etc. While none of those are against the law,
> they can be against the covenants of the neighborhood.
>
> If you don't like those rules you don't have to live there.
> I'd still suggest talking to them, but typically they are
> very strict and
> unlikely to change. :-( I myself live in a neighborhood
> with fairly
> restrictive covenents, but luckily we are allowed satellite
> dishes -- there's no cable where we are!
>
> If you love HD and Voom and they won't budge, then either
> look for a new area to live or wait until 4/1 to find out
> what the future holds for Voom and make a decision on relocation then.
>
> /Sean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------
 
I am a board member and have Voom so it can be done. It all depends on how strict the board is in the particular development. I am also a Realtor and it is true that if you sign a purchase agreement it is your responsibility to read the CCR's. In most cases with the FCC regulations you may have a dish but you can't attach it to the common ground areas. Fro example; On the roof or chimney, what we tell our general membership is that it must be on a pole within your exclusive area. I have a back yard or if you have a patio you can attach it to your patio as that is your responsibility.

We have a lessee that just moved into a unit who had dish installed on a pole in his backyard. The installer ran the coax onto the trim and up over the roof to get to the front bedroom and then down the stucco. Being a Satellite advocate and a board member, all I requested is that the lessee paint the coax run that was white the same color to match the stucco and trim. They complied and therefore we had no issue with their installation.

Matthew
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean Butler
To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem



daniel dennis wrote:
>
> The FCC has clearly stated that it is not legal to
> tell anyone they cannot have a satellite dish. The
> only stipulation is that it is placed in your
> exclusive use area. IE.... deck, porch.. check the FCC
> website to print off this. I fight this issue alot
> with apartment buildings.


Federal law mandates it for apartments, but if you have homeowners'
covenents those are beyond the law in a sense. If you sign something
that says no dish, you can't have a dish. If you don't sign, you
won't be allowed to buy. I'd make sure I discuss this with the
homeowners association in detail...

/Sean
 
It is not legal in Florida for a condo or homeowner association to prohibit an 18" dish.

Greg Hoffman <gregh16@yahoo.com> wrote:
I am looking to buy a house in a golf course
community. In reading the covenants they state "no
satellite dishes or antennas". That would mean NO VOOM
for me. Is it legal to force someone to use cable for
their TV viewing? Anyone else have this problem?????

Any comments would be appreciated.



__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/




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------------------------
 
I'm really not sure who to respond to on this thread. From a legal
standpoint an 18" dish in your own space is not likely to be challenged with
fines or in a court of law because of the expense and the reasonably good
chance that a homeowner's association would lose because of the FCC regs.
However, if you signed a homeowner's association agreement that relinquishes
your individual rights when you moved into your subdivision then a civil
suit is very possible because you've breached your contract. I'm not sure
the fCC can help you on that. It is important to read very carefully the
covenants and restrictions and if there are items you disagree with try to
get them waived and crossed out or don't move there.
No one wants to take legal action, especially with their neighbors so it is
better to negotiate and try reason to avoid a legal battle. No one wins.
I got sued over a big dish over 20 years ago and it's taken about that long
to feel neighborly again towards the complainer. Avoid legal action to save
yourself and the community. Don't move to an area and then try to skirt
their rules vecause if you signed on the dotted line you will be in the
wrong.
I've thought many times in the last 20 years that I ought to get a house on
a piece of property with acres of land and no restrictive covenants.
Wouldn't you know it, when I mentioned it this year they elected me
President of our homeowner's group.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Heitner" <haibob@yahoo.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem


>
>
> It is not legal in Florida for a condo or homeowner association to

prohibit an 18" dish.
>
> Greg Hoffman <gregh16@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am looking to buy a house in a golf course
> community. In reading the covenants they state "no
> satellite dishes or antennas". That would mean NO VOOM
> for me. Is it legal to force someone to use cable for
> their TV viewing? Anyone else have this problem?????
>
> Any comments would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> VOOM-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
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------------------------
 
Bob,
Because they are a contract between private individuals covenants do
supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but covenants are merely a
contract between a group of individuals who happen to live in the same
subdivision. If everyone agrees that there house needs to painted purple
annually and signs a document to that effect than you are leaving yourself
open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's associations further enforces their
position if you've signed into one.
If your town says you can't have a dish because of zoning laws then you
would have a good legal position to keep your dish. The fCC rulings would
apply there.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem


>
>
> If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common walls, etc.

Federal
> law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can superceed
> Federal law.
>
> Bob
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >
> >
> >
> > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
> > reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
> > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal to
> > force someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone else
> > have this problem?????
> >
> > Any comments would be appreciated.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~-->
> > What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
> > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------~->
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







------------------------
 
Greg,
Get legal advice. It is much cheaper than all the free advice we are giving
you here.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Hoffman" <gregh16@yahoo.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem


>
>
> I am looking to buy a house in a golf course
> community. In reading the covenants they state "no
> satellite dishes or antennas". That would mean NO VOOM
> for me. Is it legal to force someone to use cable for
> their TV viewing? Anyone else have this problem?????
>
> Any comments would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







------------------------
 
Agreed, however, one of my customers was allowed to
install in his "covenant" due to the fact he has
exclusive use areas.... the FCC does not regulate
paint, but it does regulate anything over the AIR.
Nothing supercedes them. The condo association found
that out and in turn allowed the install...
--- Bruce Grodner <bruceg@htva.net> wrote:
>
> Bob,
> Because they are a contract between private
> individuals covenants do
> supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but
> covenants are merely a
> contract between a group of individuals who happen
> to live in the same
> subdivision. If everyone agrees that there house
> needs to painted purple
> annually and signs a document to that effect than
> you are leaving yourself
> open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's associations
> further enforces their
> position if you've signed into one.
> If your town says you can't have a dish because of
> zoning laws then you
> would have a good legal position to keep your dish.
> The fCC rulings would
> apply there.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
> >
> >
> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with

> common walls, etc.
> Federal
> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how

> CC&Rs can superceed
> > Federal law.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course

> community. In
> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite

> dishes or
> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it

> legal to
> > > force someone to use cable for their TV viewing?

> Anyone else
> > > have this problem?????
> > >
> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources

> site!
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > --------------------~-->
> > > What would our lives be like without music,

> dance, and theater?
> > > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network

> for Good!
> > >

>

http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > >

>

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> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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> >
> >
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> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
>
>




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------------------------
 
Bruce, I would get a legal opinion from a lawyer familiar with that sort of
law. IMO and IME you can't have the CC&Rs superceed Federal law. The paint
color analogy is a poor one because paint color is not regulated by local,
state or Federal law that I am aware of.

As an extreme example, what if your HOA said it was open season on any
senior citizen you encounter in a crosswalk? Wouldn't fly, would it? What
about laws that discriminated based on race or religion?

Also, make sure you're not reading a regulation but ommitting the allowance
based on size or that they aren't simply requiring you to file an
application before installation. I can't put up a big aerial on my roof, but
a satellite dish less than 36" is allowable under the provisions of Section
1376 of the California Civil Code.

Finally, here's a clip from the FCC Q&A section mentioned earlier:

Q: What can a local government, association, or consumer do if there is a
dispute over whether a particular restriction is valid?

A: Restrictions that impair installation, maintenance or use of the antennas
covered by the rule are preempted (unenforceable) unless they are no more
burdensome than necessary for the articulated legitimate safety purpose or
for preservation of a designated or eligible historic site or district. If a
person believes a restriction is preempted, but the local government,
community association, or landlord disagrees, either the person or the
restricting entity may file a Petition for Declaratory Ruling with the FCC
or a court of competent jurisdiction. We encourage parties to attempt to
resolve disputes prior to filing a petition. Often calling the FCC for
information about how the rule works and applies in a particular situation
can help to resolve the dispute. If a local government, community
association, or landlord acknowledges that its restriction impairs
installation, maintenance, or use and is preempted under the rule but
believes it can demonstrate "highly specialized or unusual" concerns, the
restricting entity may apply to the Commission for a waiver of the rule.

If it's a safety concern or historic site, fine. Otherwise, it's down to
poker and you guys seem more than willing to fold.

Has your HOA actually called the FCC on the matter as suggested above?
Here's the number (202) 418-7096. Either we're missing some details which
makes the rule allowable(common areas, etc) or someone is violating your
civil rights.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Grodner [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:37 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
>
> Bob,
> Because they are a contract between private individuals
> covenants do supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but
> covenants are merely a contract between a group of
> individuals who happen to live in the same subdivision. If
> everyone agrees that there house needs to painted purple
> annually and signs a document to that effect than you are
> leaving yourself open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's
> associations further enforces their position if you've signed
> into one.
> If your town says you can't have a dish because of zoning
> laws then you would have a good legal position to keep your
> dish. The fCC rulings would apply there.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
> >
> >
> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common walls, etc.

> Federal
> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can

> superceed
> > Federal law.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal to
> > > force someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone else
> > > have this problem?????
> > >
> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > --------------------~-->
> > > What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
> > > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ------~->
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------
 
Bob,
I didn't fold twenty years ago and I wouldn't fold now, but I have learned
some things along the way and I can tell you from experience it's better to
reason and negotiate than raise the FCC flag and take an extreme stance. It
cost me several thousand dollars back then to be right. I will tell you
again that if you signed a document that relinquishes your rights in this or
any matter you will be in for a fight if you go against the grain. It's
just the way people are when forced into a corner. It is easy to give
advice when you don't live in the neighborhood that opposes the dish and
that you told you wouldn't have one but now you've decided that those agreed
upon rules don't apply to you. Again free advice is much more costly than
good legal advice that you spend a few bucks on. There are local courts and
then appeals courts and on up. They do not agree usually, that's why there
are appeals and decision reversals. Do you think the FCC will send and pay
for a lwayer when you are hauled into court over a homeowner's association
or covenant suit?
I don't disagree with you in principle but I do in actual practice.
Bruce
Thegrod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem


>
>
> Bruce, I would get a legal opinion from a lawyer familiar with that sort
> of
> law. IMO and IME you can't have the CC&Rs superceed Federal law. The paint
> color analogy is a poor one because paint color is not regulated by local,
> state or Federal law that I am aware of.
>
> As an extreme example, what if your HOA said it was open season on any
> senior citizen you encounter in a crosswalk? Wouldn't fly, would it? What
> about laws that discriminated based on race or religion?
>
> Also, make sure you're not reading a regulation but ommitting the
> allowance
> based on size or that they aren't simply requiring you to file an
> application before installation. I can't put up a big aerial on my roof,
> but
> a satellite dish less than 36" is allowable under the provisions of
> Section
> 1376 of the California Civil Code.
>
> Finally, here's a clip from the FCC Q&A section mentioned earlier:
>
> Q: What can a local government, association, or consumer do if there is a
> dispute over whether a particular restriction is valid?
>
> A: Restrictions that impair installation, maintenance or use of the
> antennas
> covered by the rule are preempted (unenforceable) unless they are no more
> burdensome than necessary for the articulated legitimate safety purpose or
> for preservation of a designated or eligible historic site or district. If
> a
> person believes a restriction is preempted, but the local government,
> community association, or landlord disagrees, either the person or the
> restricting entity may file a Petition for Declaratory Ruling with the FCC
> or a court of competent jurisdiction. We encourage parties to attempt to
> resolve disputes prior to filing a petition. Often calling the FCC for
> information about how the rule works and applies in a particular situation
> can help to resolve the dispute. If a local government, community
> association, or landlord acknowledges that its restriction impairs
> installation, maintenance, or use and is preempted under the rule but
> believes it can demonstrate "highly specialized or unusual" concerns, the
> restricting entity may apply to the Commission for a waiver of the rule.
>
> If it's a safety concern or historic site, fine. Otherwise, it's down to
> poker and you guys seem more than willing to fold.
>
> Has your HOA actually called the FCC on the matter as suggested above?
> Here's the number (202) 418-7096. Either we're missing some details which
> makes the rule allowable(common areas, etc) or someone is violating your
> civil rights.
>
> Bob
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bruce Grodner [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:37 PM
>> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob,
>> Because they are a contract between private individuals
>> covenants do supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but
>> covenants are merely a contract between a group of
>> individuals who happen to live in the same subdivision. If
>> everyone agrees that there house needs to painted purple
>> annually and signs a document to that effect than you are
>> leaving yourself open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's
>> associations further enforces their position if you've signed
>> into one.
>> If your town says you can't have a dish because of zoning
>> laws then you would have a good legal position to keep your
>> dish. The fCC rulings would apply there.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
>> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
>> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common walls, etc.

>> Federal
>> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can

>> superceed
>> > Federal law.
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
>> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
>> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
>> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
>> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal to
>> > > force someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone else
>> > > have this problem?????
>> > >
>> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > __________________________________
>> > > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
>> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> > > --------------------~-->
>> > > What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
>> > > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
>> > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > ------~->
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> --------------------~-->
>> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
>> Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
>> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------~->
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>







------------------------
 
Daniel,
It's all about how you go about it and the people involved.
Negotiation and good information can avoid alot of hassle.
----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel dennis" <mudpup_2001@yahoo.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem


>
>
> Agreed, however, one of my customers was allowed to
> install in his "covenant" due to the fact he has
> exclusive use areas.... the FCC does not regulate
> paint, but it does regulate anything over the AIR.
> Nothing supercedes them. The condo association found
> that out and in turn allowed the install...
> --- Bruce Grodner <bruceg@htva.net> wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>> Because they are a contract between private
>> individuals covenants do
>> supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but
>> covenants are merely a
>> contract between a group of individuals who happen
>> to live in the same
>> subdivision. If everyone agrees that there house
>> needs to painted purple
>> annually and signs a document to that effect than
>> you are leaving yourself
>> open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's associations
>> further enforces their
>> position if you've signed into one.
>> If your town says you can't have a dish because of
>> zoning laws then you
>> would have a good legal position to keep your dish.
>> The fCC rulings would
>> apply there.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
>> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
>> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with

>> common walls, etc.
>> Federal
>> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how

>> CC&Rs can superceed
>> > Federal law.
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
>> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
>> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course

>> community. In
>> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite

>> dishes or
>> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it

>> legal to
>> > > force someone to use cable for their TV viewing?

>> Anyone else
>> > > have this problem?????
>> > >
>> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > __________________________________
>> > > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources

>> site!
>> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> > > --------------------~-->
>> > > What would our lives be like without music,

>> dance, and theater?
>> > > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network

>> for Good!
>> > >

>>

> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
>> > >

>>

> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > ------~->
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






------------------------
 
[VOOM] Re: Relocation problem

A couple of points to consider:

1. Many CC&Rs were written before the FCC reg in question was
written (as evidenced by the illegible 14th generation xerox copy
that passes as the CC&R document you received upon closing). Your
HOA is not going to go out of their way to keep up with FCC regs -
especially if it means allowing something they currently ban.
Ignorance is bliss...but not an excuse.

2. If your CC&Rs required you to be sodomized every third sunday, I
doubt you would be expelled if you didn't comply. HOAs don't make
laws - they set requirements that fall within the law. If nobody
tells them the law has changed, they won't be aware of it. And even
if told, they may not acknowledge it until challenged.

Put up a dish and let the HOA dip into their parking lot restriping
and re-signing fund to fight you in a losing battle. Better yet, Put
up your dish and then volunteer your place for the next HOA meeting.
Flip on the VOOM HD on your 60" plasma and 5.1 surround sound and
then watch democracy in action! VOOM will become MANDATORY for all
residents!!!

Good luck,

Jeff Kingsley









--- In VOOM@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Grodner" <bruceg@h...> wrote:
>
> Bob,
> Because they are a contract between private individuals covenants

do
> supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but covenants are

merely a
> contract between a group of individuals who happen to live in the

same
> subdivision. If everyone agrees that there house needs to painted

purple
> annually and signs a document to that effect than you are leaving

yourself
> open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's associations further enforces

their
> position if you've signed into one.
> If your town says you can't have a dish because of zoning laws

then you
> would have a good legal position to keep your dish. The fCC

rulings would
> apply there.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@c...>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
> >
> >
> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common walls,

etc.
> Federal
> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can

superceed
> > Federal law.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@y...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal to
> > > force someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone else
> > > have this problem?????
> > >
> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > --------------------~-->
> > > What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
> > > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ------~->
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >









------------------------
 
And even the FCC suggests working it out within the HOA before getting them
involved. It doesn't change the fact that according the the letter of the
law you are allowed to install on space that you own and control
exclusively.

I'm currently involved with some overly aggressive HOA board members who are
trying to run the show as they see fit. I know that dance too well. You
don't go at it with a bull in the china shop approach, but I refuse to roll
over and live by what they feel should be the rules, especially with the way
they are going about trying to enact them.

If you are an HOA board member, a phone call for clarification will probably
result in a letter from the FCC that explains how they are violating the
law. Then you have ammunition to change the CC&Rs or bylaws. It's up to an
individual if they want to pursue legally. In the state of California, loser
of any civil case on such matters pays the legal fees. If push came to
shove, armed with such a letter would be pretty much a slam dunk. Does the
HOA want to be on the hook for the legal fees? Then it's poker where you
hold the better hand.

Remember, the law has been in effect less than 10 years and many HOAs have
been around much longer. Sometimes it's a case of rules that haven't been
updated to reflect the current times. Not proposing a "bad neighbor" policy
or getting in someone's face, but if you ask when and why the rules were put
in place to start with, you might find getting them adjusted to meet current
times is not all that difficult and won't necessarily offend anyone. Just
depends on who you're dealing with.

Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: thegrod [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:26 PM
> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
>
> Bob,
> I didn't fold twenty years ago and I wouldn't fold now, but I
> have learned some things along the way and I can tell you
> from experience it's better to reason and negotiate than
> raise the FCC flag and take an extreme stance. It cost me
> several thousand dollars back then to be right. I will tell
> you again that if you signed a document that relinquishes
> your rights in this or any matter you will be in for a fight
> if you go against the grain. It's just the way people are
> when forced into a corner. It is easy to give advice when
> you don't live in the neighborhood that opposes the dish and
> that you told you wouldn't have one but now you've decided
> that those agreed upon rules don't apply to you. Again free
> advice is much more costly than good legal advice that you
> spend a few bucks on. There are local courts and then
> appeals courts and on up. They do not agree usually, that's
> why there are appeals and decision reversals. Do you think
> the FCC will send and pay for a lwayer when you are hauled
> into court over a homeowner's association or covenant suit?
> I don't disagree with you in principle but I do in actual practice.
> Bruce
> Thegrod
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:25 PM
> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
> >
> >
> > Bruce, I would get a legal opinion from a lawyer familiar with that
> > sort of law. IMO and IME you can't have the CC&Rs superceed Federal
> > law. The paint color analogy is a poor one because paint

> color is not
> > regulated by local, state or Federal law that I am aware of.
> >
> > As an extreme example, what if your HOA said it was open

> season on any
> > senior citizen you encounter in a crosswalk? Wouldn't fly,

> would it?
> > What about laws that discriminated based on race or religion?
> >
> > Also, make sure you're not reading a regulation but ommitting the
> > allowance based on size or that they aren't simply requiring you to
> > file an application before installation. I can't put up a

> big aerial
> > on my roof, but a satellite dish less than 36" is allowable

> under the
> > provisions of Section
> > 1376 of the California Civil Code.
> >
> > Finally, here's a clip from the FCC Q&A section mentioned earlier:
> >
> > Q: What can a local government, association, or consumer do

> if there
> > is a dispute over whether a particular restriction is valid?
> >
> > A: Restrictions that impair installation, maintenance or use of the
> > antennas covered by the rule are preempted (unenforceable)

> unless they
> > are no more burdensome than necessary for the articulated

> legitimate
> > safety purpose or for preservation of a designated or eligible
> > historic site or district. If a person believes a restriction is
> > preempted, but the local government, community association, or
> > landlord disagrees, either the person or the restricting entity may
> > file a Petition for Declaratory Ruling with the FCC or a court of
> > competent jurisdiction. We encourage parties to attempt to resolve
> > disputes prior to filing a petition. Often calling the FCC for
> > information about how the rule works and applies in a particular
> > situation can help to resolve the dispute. If a local government,
> > community association, or landlord acknowledges that its

> restriction
> > impairs installation, maintenance, or use and is preempted

> under the
> > rule but believes it can demonstrate "highly specialized or

> unusual"
> > concerns, the restricting entity may apply to the

> Commission for a waiver of the rule.
> >
> > If it's a safety concern or historic site, fine. Otherwise,

> it's down
> > to poker and you guys seem more than willing to fold.
> >
> > Has your HOA actually called the FCC on the matter as

> suggested above?
> > Here's the number (202) 418-7096. Either we're missing some details
> > which makes the rule allowable(common areas, etc) or someone is
> > violating your civil rights.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bruce Grodner [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:37 PM
> >> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Bob,
> >> Because they are a contract between private individuals

> covenants do
> >> supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but covenants

> are merely a
> >> contract between a group of individuals who happen to live in the
> >> same subdivision. If everyone agrees that there house needs to
> >> painted purple annually and signs a document to that

> effect than you
> >> are leaving yourself open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's associations
> >> further enforces their position if you've signed into one.
> >> If your town says you can't have a dish because of zoning

> laws then
> >> you would have a good legal position to keep your dish. The fCC
> >> rulings would apply there.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> >> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> >> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common

> walls, etc.
> >> Federal
> >> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can
> >> superceed
> >> > Federal law.
> >> >
> >> > Bob
> >> >
> >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> >> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> >> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
> >> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
> >> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal

> to force
> >> > > someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone

> else have this
> >> > > problem?????
> >> > >
> >> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > __________________________________
> >> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> >> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > ------------------------
 

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