OTHER Receiver issue with Movies! & Start channel on 101w?

[primestar31]

I've got something odd going on with my system, and I'm not sure as of yet what's causing it, or how to "cure" it. I have a SAMI 7.5ft dish, a Titanium C1-PLL (the newer one with the filters) a Edision OS Mio 4k receiver, and I'm using the NA SatDreamGr first final image.

Anyway, those channels specs are nearly the same except for frequency:

101w satellite:
Movies: 3961 V DVB-S QPSK 2734-5/6 SID 1

Start: 3965 V DVB-S QPSK 2734-5/6 SID 1

They both work fine on those frequencies, however when they are initially scanned-in, 'Start' channel scans in named as 'Start', BUT 'Movies!' channel scans in named: "3961V SID 0x01" instead of "Movies!". Just in case this is important info.

On Sundays, I have recurring timers to bring my Mio out of Standby, tune in Movies! channel, and record the Sherlock Holmes movie from 8:30am-10am, and later the Perry Mason movie from 1:00pm-3pm. These are BOTH on "Movies!" channel, and I've setup both these timers through the Mio's "Webif" screen. Not that I think doing it through Webif has anything to do with my issue, but I mention it in interest of how I found a problem, or got this issue.

I've discovered that SOMETIMES when I check either recording afterwards, instead of the Movies channel recording I'm expected, it recorded the 'Start' channel instead! Which doesn't make me happy.

I've now discovered the trigger of WHY that is, but I'm not sure what if anything I can do about it.

Here it is: IF I have the receiver on 'Movies!' channel before the recording, the receiver wakes up and simply starts the recording, and it really IS the 'Movies!' channel, and all is well. However, IF the receiver is somewhere else on the arc, then wakes up, moves to 101w and goes to tune in 'Movies!' it instead brings in 'Start'. However, if I'm here and check it, the specs that come up on the screen if I hit the "OK" button are the ones for 'Movies!' channel, even though it's actually tuned into the 'Start' channel.

In other words, the screen says it's channel "3961V SID 0x01" (Movies!) and gives all the other info for that, but it's actually the 'Start' channel. That will happen even if I delete 'Start' from the menus. It's as if the receiver can't tell the difference between the two channels, even though they are 4 mhz apart in frequency.

Last night I found out this will just happen if I'm on 'Movies!' channel, move to a channel on another sat, then just move back to 101w 'Movies!'. It'll then tune in 'Start' instead... So, it actually has nothing to do with setting a recording, and everything to do whether or not it's on 'Movies!' already before the recording begins, or if it's somewhere else on the arc and needs to go to 101w and actually tune in 'Movies!'.

Any ideas? Below you can see the screens for each channel from a fresh scan. They clearly have different Service Name, Service Reference, and Pids.

 

[Magic Static]

We ran into this with the microHD. The fine line between tuner sensitivity and tightly packed frequencies.

 

[primestar31]

Yeah, I thought it seemed familiar...

Maybe after church I'll try changing the Sid id on the Movies! channel to something else, and see what happens.

 

[Magic Static]

The best fix would be the broadcaster changing those SIDs and PIDs to be different from each other. ( nobody call them and suggest this please)

 

[Titanium]

Maybe try shifting the two TP frequencies apart 1 MHz (up/down)? I think this has to do with the AFT setting for accomodating drifting LNB IF.

 

[primestar31]

Maybe try shifting the two TP frequencies apart 1 MHz (up/down)? I think this has to do with the AFT setting for accommodating drifting LNB IF.

Yep, I was thinking about trying that today. Right after the Perry Mason movie finishes up at 3pm. I only last night nailed it down to not being a fluke, and that was already past 11pm.

There's no way to do that right on the receiver, through the remote, correct? I'll have to use Dreambox edit? I have direct pc network access to /etc/enigma2, (also Webif) but not sure which file has those coded in it.

 

[primestar31]

I changed the frequency of Movies! channel to 3960, and Start channel to 3967, but it made no difference. If the dish is on another sat and moves to 101w for Movies! channel, it almost always tunes in Start tv instead.

If I try moving to 3959 for Movies! it scans in Decades instead.

Not sure where to go from here. I guess if I know it's going to be on a different sat before going to 101w to record something on Movies!, I could first set a 1 minute "Zap" timer to go to say MeTv first. Then set a Zap and record timer for the movie.

P.S.:
Ok, setting a couple minute ZAP timer to go to 101w and another channel other than Movies!, then set a second "zap and record" timer for Movies! seems to work fine.

So, that's what I'll do for now as a workaround, IF I know the dish will be pointing somewhere else before a recording for Movies! channel is set to go off.

 

[Titanium]

Here is some advice from El Bandido.
- - - - -

In the Customize menu, Menu--->Setup--->System--->Customize,
Set Ignore DVB-S namespace sub network to no. Default for this setting is yes.
Then delete satellite 101w c band and rescan it. See if that fixes the problem. Also delete the 101w bouquet as I am sure he as one. Do this also before the rescan

 

[primestar31]

Here is some advice from El Bandido.
- - - - -

In the Customize menu, Menu--->Setup--->System--->Customize,
Set Ignore DVB-S namespace sub network to no. Default for this setting is yes.
Then delete satellite 101w c band and rescan it. See if that fixes the problem. Also delete the 101w bouquet as I am sure he as one. Do this also before the rescan

Yep, he gave that to me over at LegitFTA. I tried it, and it didn't work, which I posted over there before going off to bed. Spent over an hour doing it all, but no go.

I've now uploaded the latest copy of my Enigma2 folder, and he's going to look it over again and see what he can find. Maybe another slight corruption or something, etc. At least I make a good test bed situation, with the stuff I always seem to come up with when I get a new receiver... Here I thought my days of being a beta-tester at work was over with, lol.

 

[Titanium]

With an open source operating system we have the ability to contribute to effect change for items affecting a minute group of users. You are a power user and your input may bring resolution to an unusual situation that rarely exists outside this group of services.

Like Magic Static mentioned, we have to try and work around a very inane service parameter set by the uplink engineers. It meets their distribution needs for fixed frequency receivers, but not our hobbyist systems. The very attributes that make receivers sensitive logging machines, becomes its kryptonite!

This has been a problem for at least 8 or 9 years and will likely continue for years to come. All we can do is try to develop work arounds to deal with a non-typical situation.

Since I had to deal with this on past STB development, I have insight on how it has been addressed in the past. Hopefully an option can be added to the E2 to narrow the AFT frequency range (automatic tuning for drifting IF). While a narrower tuning range could be helpful for tuning this specific group of SCPC services, it could also adversely affect other services, causing them not to lock on other systems.

I am doubtful that it is data corruption, but it is good that the file is being looked at.

 

[primestar31]

I agree with your AFT hypothesis, and hope maybe there will be a plugin developed for users such as me. Perhaps even one that can be easily toggled on and off. I looked up the old post on the Movies! issue with the MicroHD yesterday, and read through the whole thing again to refresh myself. That was a big issue for me back then also, lol.

I'm happy to come up with issues to be looked at, and hopefully tweaked for us here in the states. I seem to be very good at that, and I'm not afraid to speak up about them, lol.

As a bonus, I am really starting to get the hang of Enigma2, at least the SatDreamGr image much of the outer edges, into the middle a bit. No better way to figure things out, then to have a lot of problems with it and work through them. Technician 101!

I hope we can eventually get more than just El Bandido interested in doing actual coding with this receiver though. I never did much of that beyond Hex and a little Octal, way back in the late '70's and early '80's, and have pretty much forgotten that. EB is a treasure, but he's only one. IMO, we could use at least a handful that are capable of doing that.

 

[primestar31]

El Bandido was able to replicate my issue on his system:

E.B.: This is easy to duplicate:

Originally Posted by MikeB
Not sure if it'll fix it to change the SID, but I've noticed that when on another sat and moving/zapping to 101w to Movies! channel, it brings up the Start channel instead. They are only 4Mhz apart, and all their other info is pretty much the same. I tried changing the frequency so they were a bit further apart, and it made no difference.

If I'm already on 101w and Zap to Movies! that works perfectly every time.

E.B.: I am watching Movies, then change to a channel on 97W, then return to Movies and I get Start TV instead.

Currently there are two Start TV channels on different transponders. Eliminating the Start TV on 3965MHz does not keep this from happening in my system. The Start TV at 3708MHz takes the place of Movies(3961MHz). You can throw the problem of the 4 MHz spacing out the window, or so it would seem.

Now let's see if we can find some sort of a way to keep this from happening.

So, he believes it's NOT the Start TV on 3965 V that's "taking over" Movies! on 3961 V, it's the higher-powered (maybe Sun outage temp?) version of Start Tv at 3708 that's doing it. I didn't even know that was there, but who knows...

Here's what he's proposing for a solution ATM:

Changed the channel id's without any success.
The best thing to do for now is make another satellite entry a few tenths of a degree away, and put the Movies channel entry in the new satellite.

So, he means a "fake additional" 101w satellite, say at 101.3w with only Movies! channel scanned into it. A little bit away from the real one, but close enough to still lock Movies! channel.

In this case IF he's correct, I much prefer my solution of a short chanel-change ZAP timer to MeTv, if I know it'll be on another sat before firing a timer and zapping/record to 101w Movies! channel. Though none of this explains why we also had this issue years ago with the MicroHD, and it was an AFT problem at that time.

IF that other Start transponder is causing it in this case with the Mio, and IF it is a temp higher powered Sun outage duplicate, it should be removed soon anyway.

 

[Magic Static]

A little bit away from the real one, but close enough to still lock Movies! channel.

That doesn't make sense. This a virtual position change not an actual one. It looks like the receiver has the ability to discriminate between close frequencies on adjacent satellites better than on the same satellite.

 

[primestar31]

That doesn't make sense. This a virtual position change not an actual one. It looks like the receiver has the ability to discriminate between close frequencies on adjacent satellites better than on the same satellite.

I know. I don't have to even do all that to know it won't work. Perhaps if he thinks about it a little longer, he'll come to the same conclusion. Meanwhile, my solution of a channel-zap timer works every time, because once it's on 101w and then goes to Movies! it works flawlessly. Which means this still seems to be an AFT issue as Brian has said.

I'll let Brian take it from here, from his side. Now that we know this issue also exists with this receiver, we are halfway to a solution just for that fact.

 

[. Raine]

I don't think either of the Starts are temp, I never watch them but from flipping through channels it looks like they have different programs. Maybe east/west?

 

[primestar31]

I don't think either of the Starts are temp, I never watch them but from flipping through channels it looks like they have different programs. Maybe east/west?

Nope, there's another set of Start channels right now on different transponders. Two Easts, and Two Wests.

 

[. Raine]

Nope, there's another set of Start channels right now on different transponders. Two Easts, and Two Wests.

Ah, I've only ever scanned in the two start channels. I didn't know there was four start channels there!

 

[Titanium]

Does this happen with other images? Is it unique to TNAP mod of SatDreamGR? Perfect time to test these sevices on several multiboot images.

You may find that this is specific to certain images or across all images. If to a specific image, best to report in that image forum. For example if you find that this problem exists with only SatDreamGR based images, report your observations in the SatDreamGR forum. If it is found with OpenPLI based images, report on OpenPLI forum. OpenVIX?

Unlikely that you will find that it is only found with the TNAP mod image as to my knowledge there have not been any modifications to the service tuning. My guess is that you will note the same issue with the SatDreamGR image and possibly other OpenPLI images.

Not sure were you got the idea that El Bandido is the only coder working on the Mio 4K. He has simply been changing (reverse engineering) an open source E2 image developed by other teams for the benefit of North American users. Very talented hobbyist, but E2 images are a collaborative effort by many hobbyists. Not intending to diminish in any way his contributions for the hard work on TNAP for Mio 4k, but E2 images are the result of the talents and refinement of hundreds if not thousands of hobbyists.

 

[danristheman]

Have tried the ones at the lower frequencies mine comes up heroes, decades, and start.

 

[primestar31]

I've only got the first NA SDGr final in slot 1, NA SDGr RC (customized from E.B.) in slot 2, and OpenVIX in slot 3.

I'll try it with OpenVIX today.