Satellite TWTA

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pedrogarcia

SatelliteGuys Pro
Original poster
Dec 27, 2008
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Kalamazoo / Limassol
Since I joined this forum perhaps one of the most talked about problems involve signal strength, quality and weather fade.
As I have also lived in Europe and Middle East I wondered why this has not been a major topic. Simple it is not a European problem so I looked at the SES World skies satellites (AMC) versus SES Astra satellites and the answer was really obvious - the AMC birds have only about 35% of the output power of the European birds. Even Dish and Direct have weather fade for the same reasons. This would be totally unacceptable to subscribers in Europe.

Sad to say America ia getting a raw deal with a second rate service
 
Wonder if that is a ruling of the FCC (max power) or if the sat-owners use lower levels to prolong the life of the spacecraft?
 
There may also be unrelated reasons for the differences. Certainly NA FSS birds do not as a rule target FTA-sized dishes or FTA users. One would have to compare the nominal dish sizes used by the intended satellite users for each case to determine whether there are significant differences in the link margins that are tolerated. Another factor that comes to mind is the size and shape of the downlinked beam. Without looking into specific cases, I can't say whether this is a factor, but it might be. When comparing the birds themselves, one has to consider the total payload power budget (how many transponders on how many bands), solar collection capacity, projected life of the bird, available consumables, orbital location (some need more gas for station keeping), launch costs, etc. The economic tradeoffs may be significantly different for Europe/North America.

Regardless of the above I happen to notice the local OTA affiliates, that use Ku for their network feeds and who have decent-sized dishes apparently in use, still suffer rain fade during the occasional torrential downpours that hit the Denver area.
 
Europe is ~10.1 million Km2, North America is ~ 24.7 million Km2. Not all of North America is illuminated by the satellites of interest, look angles are too shallow for the very far north. I would imagine it takes 4 times the power to cover twice the area at the same intensity. The ratio of 35% received power compared to Europe looks about right.
 
Turbo: I have not seen FCC max output stated anywhere but certainly spacecraft longetivity has got to be an economic issue and certainly battery technology has improved drastically since the launch of a number of the birds.

Pendragon: I appreciate it is not for NA FTA users as such but they generally have larger dishes than subscriber services. Europe Sky has 65 cm dishes(which are junk compared to US subscriber dishes) but work fine I believe due to the bird power output. Dish/Direct subscriptions are pretty much identical although the to Europe although Europe does not bundle & encrypt FTA channels to enhance their package.
Size and beam shape is interesting since NA tend to include spot beams for more densely populated area. Solar collecting capacity is clearly an economy issue proprtional to battery power and I doubt there is any built in redundancy. As for the OTA affiliates the satellite power must be the issue. Here is the main difference NA / Europe, almost all European feeds are fibre.

Cadsulfile: think you misunderstood me. NA sat's only have about 35% of the transmit power of the Europe sats and they do have smaller footprints, but over twice the population (which may well be the answer to this all)

What do you all think?
 
Pedro;

I should have read your post more carefully, my bad.

Politics may also play a role. European corporations are often compelled to align their business strategies with the needs of society. Exec's on the other side of the pond who would sell bad peanuts to children would find their heads placed on a stake.
 
I have also noticed that the European sats have significantly higher power, however the solution to what is perceived to be a "problem" is NOT to increase the power. The power used on the CONUS sats is of course partly a financial decision related to the cost of the sats, and lifetime of the sats, etc, but I'm sure that a major consideration is to not use so much power as to interfer with adjacent sats. The CONUS sats are jammed together with 2 degree spacing for transponders on the same freq. If you look carefully at the European sats, it *appears* that they have spacing that is narrower than 2 degrees, but if you look at transponders related to services aimed at home viewers, I think you'll find that if you pick a transponder freq, then go to adjacent sats looking for that same freq, you generally won't find that same freq until you get out much wider than 2 deg. In the dozen or so examples I looked at, I didn't find any transponder on the same freq even going 7 deg away. I'm sure there are probably exceptions, but I really get the impression that in Europe, they seem to solve the interference problem by using a wider spectrum of freqs, while in North America, they tend to solve the problem via using lower power and bigger dishes that in Europe.
Also, one HUGE difference between the US services and the European services, is that the US has these incredibly restrictive rules prohibiting out of area reception of local network channels. Ie, instead of letting viewers subscribe to some satellite service with CBS, NBC, ABC, the government has given in to the networks, and prohibit sales of these network signals out of the area of the local channels. The end result is the waste of an incredible amount of satellite bandwidth, forcing the services to use more satellites, closer spacing, spend more money increasing the costs to everyone, and resulting in inferior quality to the viewers.
If congress would put an end to the local monopolies of network signals, allowing viewers to get network signals off satellite if they want to, you could get back to a situation where network signals took up only one transponder instead of all the transponders on multiple satellites.
I just think that it's an incredible waste of bandwidth to send exactly the same programming over literally hundreds of different channels. I am convinced that 95% of the power/spacing/bandwidth issues would dissappear immediately if congress would eliminate the local channel monopoly. I know that it is there to protect the local channels, however I really believe that they have gone to unreasonable lengths to protect these channels, and it is resulting in increased cost and lower quality to viewers.
 
....European corporations are often compelled to align their business strategies with the needs of society...

Compelled how?

... I just think that it's an incredible waste of bandwidth to send exactly the same programming over literally hundreds of different channels. ...

Yeah, that was really apparent during the recent encryption crisis. All of the locals were showing the same thing, mostly.

OTOH, I wonder if the US legislation wasn't in place, how much would things be different? Terrestrial providers would market the generic network feeds as substandard. Customers would demand that their local OTA feeds be transmitted 22,300 miles up and back down, sopping up TP resources anyway...
 
Interesting conversation.

Got a more general question, and I think it kinda fits with what you are talking about:

Does a satellite, broadcasting at a typical given power level, have sufficient signal to energize an "unlimited" number of dishes within it's footprint? "Unlimited" meaning all that will physically fit in the footprint. :confused:
 
phlatwound;
I would think of the signal as if it were RAIN. It falls all over the ground under the cloud [footprint], and the more buckets [dishes] you set out, the more you catch, but the number of buckets does not affect the amount of rain from the cloud....
Likewise the signal falls on the earth, whether it is caught in a dish or not...
 
If you want to put it that way, you could expand on that too.

Every rain cloud has the same amount of rain. And for that rain cloud to rain on everybody it has to spread that rain a lot thinner to cover everywhere requiring much wider pans to catch that water as it hits the ground.
 
How about some specifics, please... An example to illustrate the point?

Some info available shows amplifier power and other sources show EIRP. The Astra birds are Ku mostly but the SES World Skies satellites are largely mixed C, Ku and/or Ka. Is there a source of data that is consistent so you can do an apples-to-apples comparison?

Sorry, but I am a little boneheaded about this - uhh, still learning.
 
BJ absolutely right Europe are able to manage frequencies better on adjacent satellites due to the increased bandwidth frequency available. However I do not believe in the US that adjacent satellite interference at 2 degree spacing is entirely due to frequency and not alignment.

There are identical frequencies Astra 2D at 28 east which I need a 3 m dish to receive, has some frequencies the same on BADR6 at 26 east which I receive on a 1m dish aligned correctly (with a spec anal) there is no interference. Put the skew out a few degrees or an almost immeasureable amount on the dish and up comes interference on the weaker signal.
Torretial rain will fade out the 2D weaker signal but never affects the more powerful BADR 6. In fairness Astra 2D is one of the old Hughes spinning dusbins of the late 90s and BADR6 is about a year old
Guapoharry
EU corps are supposedly controlled by EU law which the EU would like to think is similar to Federal law. That might be the intention but it is definately not. Little respect is given to EU law.
Phlatwound I am not getting into that debate as whilst there is some truth in saturation losses they are insignificant to atmospheric losses
 
What about how crowded the arc is above both continents? At the beggining and obviously only C Band was used , the standard was 4 degree spacing , then 3 degrees and now we are 2 degreesby FCC. Therefore the need to use lower power TWTA's (well acctually for C band is also common to use another tecnology, SSPA) to comply with this spacing.

Guapoharry take for example ASTRA website and compare the TWTA values of those European birds with the SES NA satellites. Here in NA is usually around 50W , over there in Europe is around 100 with DBS services (they have to be 4.5 degrees apart in NA) having 50W more respectively.

The question is , Why the decision to still only use a reduced range of frecuencies as a general rule in NA then?. Maybe it is a historical one, who knows. Why not allowing another name of service (FSS 2 degrees, DBS 4.5) that uses the lower Ku band and therefore requieres Universal LNB's. There might be a boom in SAT services in the future , therefore there might be the need for the expansion of the frecuencies that are allowed to be used. Maybe right now , the Standard frecuencies are enough, therefore the need for a bigger Dish.
 
The question is , Why the decision to still only use a reduced range of frecuencies as a general rule in NA then?. Maybe it is a historical one, who knows. Why not allowing another name of service (FSS 2 degrees, DBS 4.5) that uses the lower Ku band and therefore requieres Universal LNB's. There might be a boom in SAT services in the future , therefore there might be the need for the expansion of the frecuencies that are allowed to be used. Maybe right now , the Standard frecuencies are enough, therefore the need for a bigger Dish.

Why indeed?

I also wonder why they still manufacture Standard LNBs. (I am glad they do as I run the Anole 8 into 1 system)

In Europe subscribers can only officially get subscription from within their country and as there are many suppliers and languages more TPs are required. No sharing TP and multi audio apids although there are a few exceptions. Europeans generally speak more languages than N Americans and so more is available even FTA.
There are now satellites broadcasting Ka band DTH services in Europe
 
How can one compare the Astra fleet versus the World Skies fleet?

The Astra birds are Ku only - many for serving end-users... sort of like DirectV and Dish Network. But it looks like there are some lower power birds at 23.5E

The World Skies birds seem more directed for media companies, data and the like. - A lot of C-band. (which use lower power amps)

Let's look at some specifics

Consider AMC21
Ku only - Amp type TWTA, 110 watts

Consider EchoStar 7
Ku only - 32 high-power, full continental United States (CONUS) transponders capable of operating at 120 watts per channel, which are switchable to 16 super high-power, full-CONUS transponders capable of operating at 240 watts per channel.

Consider Ciel2
Ku only - 100 to 200-watt TWTA

Consider ASTRA 1H
TWTA output power: 98 W

Consider ASTRA 1KR
Ku only - TWTA output power: 140 W

Consider ASTRA 1M
Ku only - TWTA output power: 150 W

However, talk about amplifier power doesn't address differences in antennas where you cover a smaller versus larger area as others have brought up. -- Directionality and gain tradeoffs

If you take the set of things to include FTA in US versus FTA in Europe, I understand. FTA in the US is not mainstream. If you include Pay TV as well, I don't get it.

If someone can list like for like comparisons, and show the power discrepancy, I'd sure appreciate hearing about it...
 
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