SD Channel Improvement?

[zippyfrog]

I just noticed this in the past day, but it looks like Dish has made some improvement on some SD channels. Take a look at Real America's Voice (219), MovieSphere Gold (298) or LAFF (239). Even though they aren't HD channels, they are in 16:9 format and the picture looks pretty good for SD. Contrast that with something like Ion (250), Disney channel west (173), Disney XD (174) or TVLand (106). The 16:9 format is squeezed into the 4:3 area and there are is the extra black area, or everyhting is compressed. To make it look normal, I have to go to format and change HD to "stretch" to make the SD channels fill the 16:9 screen properly.

I wish all the SD channels look like 219, 239, and 298!

 

[dishrich]

Well interestingly, as one of the last subs w/the supers, a couple days ago when I turned on KTLA (ch 598) I thought that it looked better than usual...since I tend to keep it on during the weekdays when I puttering around the house, it was noticeable. Honestly I thought it was my imagination, but...

 

[zippyfrog]

Thank you for providing the info - I think Dish did something with their compression. I checked the channels and the same channels are on the transponders as before, so it isn't they reduced channels to give more bandwidth to each channel. I am looking at StartTV (291) and H&I (293) and both of those look much better than they used to as well.

LAFF right now on Dish looks better than LAFF on my OTA channel here in Chicago. Granted, LAFF in Chicago is one of 8 channels (2 HD channels) on the same frequency. Side by side, the Dish feed is a little sharper with a little more motion blur, whereas the OTA is much more soft.

 

[zippyfrog]

I flipped through the SD channels that I am currently subscribed to, and here is what I see. The ones that are in the 16:9 format do look surprisingly good for SD.

The ones that are 16:9 Letterbox, you can do the scretch and zoom on the receiver, but when the pixels themselves are being stretched, the picture is just not as good as the native 16:9 format.

The Anamorphic Squeeze (I think that is the right term), picture looks decent when you do the HD stretch.

The ones that are blank I don't currently subscribe to in order to check.

Channel	Type	Format	Network
73	SD	16:9	QVC3
74	SD	16:9	QVC2
161	SD	16:9	MTV2
178	SD	16:9	NickToons
181	SD	16:9	Teen Nick
219	SD	16:9	America's Voice
239	SD	16:9	LAFF
245	SD	16:9	Buzzr
256	SD	16:9	Bible
263	SD	16:9	Daystar
267	SD	16:9	3ABN
268	SD	16:9	BYU TV
291	SD	16:9	Start
293	SD	16:9	Hero and Icon
298	SD	16:9	Movie Sphere Gold
360	SD	16:9	Grio
828	SD	16:9	Univision West
880	SD	16:9	HITN
881	SD	16:9	TDV
888	SD	16:9	Enlace TV
266	SD	??	TCT
72	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Value
76	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Deal
82	SD	16:9 Letterbox	FETV
86	SD	16:9 Letterbox	MALL
104	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Value (same as 72)
106	SD	16:9 Letterbox	TV Land
123	SD	16:9 Letterbox	MALL (same as 86)
127	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Oxygen
163	SD	16:9 Letterbox	MTV Classic
168	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Disney Jr
169	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Nick Jr
171	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Nick West
173	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Disney Channel (West)
174	SD	16:9 Letterbox	DisneyXD
175	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Boomerang
177	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Cartoon Network (West)
186	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Halmark Drama
210	SD	16:9 Letterbox	CSPAN
211	SD	16:9 Letterbox	CSPAN2
217	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Grit
228	SD	16:9 Letterbox	YouTV
240	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Justice
243	SD	16:9 Letterbox	FM
262	SD	16:9 Letterbox	CTN
269	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Free Speech TV
274	SD	16:9 Letterbox	NRB TV
292	SD	16:9 Letterbox	MGM+D
329	SD	16:9 Letterbox	TMC-W
330	SD	16:9 Letterbox	TMCXW
343	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Encore Action
345	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Encore Black
346	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Encore Classic
347	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Encore Family
359	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Bounce
373	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Great TV
374	SD	16:9 Letterbox	AWE
377	SD	16:9 Letterbox	MoviePlex
399	SD	16:9 Letterbox	FanDuel Racing
836	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Telemundo
883	SD	16:9 Letterbox	Value
75	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Renew
81	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	ICTV
85	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	EPIC
87	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Shop
221	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Extra
225	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Sale
226	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	HSN2
250	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	ION
257	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	SBN
258	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	TBNI
261	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	EWTN
264	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Impact
265	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Victory
823	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Baby 1
852	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	Estrella TV
285	SD		DOG TV
322	SD		Showtime Extreme
323	SD		Showtime Showcase
328	SD		TMCXE
333	SD		FLIX
353	SD		Starz Cinema
355	SD		Starz In Black
362	SD		BET Gospel
363	SD		BET Soul
364	SD		CMT Music
365	SD		BET Jams
366	SD		MTVU
368	SD		Nick Music
390	SD		Outside Television
391	SD		Fox Soccer Plus
394	SD		World Fishing Network
464	SD		PPV Sports
465	SD		PPV Sports
466	SD		PPV Sports
481	SD		PPV Adult
482	SD		PPV Adult
483	SD		PPV Adult
484	SD		PPV Adult
485	SD		Cheap Thrills
487	SD		Playboy Spanish
489	SD		Playboy
490	SD		Brazzers TV
491	SD		Real Extreme
492	SD		Vivid
494	SD		TEN
495	SD		Reality Kings
496	SD		Hustler
498	SD		Xtasy
595	SD		Superstation - WPIX
596	SD		Superstation - KWGN
597	SD		Superstation - WSBK
598	SD		Superstation - KTLA
599	SD		Superstation - WWOR
821	SD		CLAN
826	SD		WAPAA
831	SD		MLMDS
832	SD		Centro
834	SD		PSNES
837	SD		TLNOV
839	SD		Ant3
840	SD		TVEI
841	SD		NTEL
842	SD		Crcol
843	SD		History Channel Spanish
844	SD		Nat Geo Mundo
846	SD		DS Fam
847	SD		Uforo
848	SD		MLNIO
849	SD		CNN Spanish
851	SD		Cuba Max TV
863	SD		MXCNL
864	SD		Csony
865	SD		Cine Latino
890	SD		VDRLA
891	SD		TRS3
4385	SD	Anamorphic Squeeze	TBN - Inspire
4801	SD		Foro TV (same as 847)
4803	SD		TL Novellas (same as 837)
9458	SD		BuyTV (same as 84)
9532	SD		ICTV (same as 81)
Varies	SD		PBS Local (National Feed)

 

[winter60]

Zippyfrog, thank you for taking the time to research all of these SD channels. Your information is very interesting.

I watch FeTV ch. 82 a lot and have found that leaving the aspect to "Normal" works best in that most of their programs are native 4:3. Leaving the aspect to Normal displays these programs normally in 4:3, even though the commercials which would normally be in 16:9, show up with a black border on all sides. If, on the rare occasion, they show a 16:9 program, I have the option of using "Zoom" to fill the screen. But then, 4:3 programs look stretched. (Thank goodness for that aspect button on my remote!) What really blows me is when some of the commercials are shown in HD and 16:9. They apparently pull some commercials off internet streaming and inject them into my H3 bypassing the satellient feeds.

I still feel the best SD format was what Dish Network used for Cozi TV (back when they carried it). It was a SD channel and if you set the aspect to "Stretch", not "Zoom", any 16:9 program material would be in 16:9, and any 4:3 program material would be in 4:3. You never had to adjust the aspect from "Stretch" to watch everything on that channel in the proper aspect ratio.

I guess my question is why the three different formats for different SD channels? As a result, my aspect ratio button on my remote gets a big workout! At least, they have that button.

 

[zippyfrog]

I guess my question is why the three different formats for different SD channels? As a result, my aspect ratio button on my remote gets a big workout! At least, they have that button.

Exactly! If they were all 16:9, no changes needed. If they are 16:9 Letterboxed, then you could set your receiver to "Zoom" and it would look normal; if they were all the anamorphic squeeze, you could set your receiver to "Stretch" and it would look normal. But the different formats is annoying. The changes this past week to 16:9 is a step in the right direction. Wish they all were so there was no need to change the format at all.

 

[winter60]

The changes this past week to 16:9 is a step in the right direction.

Did Dish Network make some of these changes recently?

Also, on a different but similar note, I think I once read that the Hopper Plus lacks an aspect button. Maybe this has been corrected, but if not, that alone is a reason for me to NOT consider a Hopper Plus.

 

[zippyfrog]

Did Dish Network make some of these changes recently?

Some of the 16:9 changes were made on Wednesday Night/Thursday Morning and Thursday Night/Friday morning. I don't know about all the channels though. I have LAFF (239) on almost every day and noticed the 16:9 change on Friday morning. And my parents, who watch Real America's Voice (219) and MovieSphere (298) each day, called me on Thursday morning and said that picture was much smaller and I walked them through how to change the settings. Then they called me again on Friday saying it was different again and I confirmed for myself and it was 16:9.

LAFF has been 16:9 Letterbox for a while and I saw the change to 16:9 Friday morning, wherease Real America's Voice and MovieSphere were previously the "Anamorphic Squeeze" and were changed to 16:9 Letterbox on Thursday, then 16:9 on Friday. (at least that is what I observed after my parents called me!)

 

[Mister B]

Zippy, thank you so much for pointing this out. When I first went back to DISH I tried watching some of these channels but came to avoid them due to the poor video quality. I hope they are in the process of fixing all of the SD channels. The only one I can compare to OTA is LAFF and it is dramatically better on satellite.

 

[Tampa8]

Well interestingly, as one of the last subs w/the supers, a couple days ago when I turned on KTLA (ch 598) I thought that it looked better than usual...since I tend to keep it on during the weekdays when I puttering around the house, it was noticeable. Honestly I thought it was my imagination, but...

I have all the remaining Super Channels also and no question an improvement. I maintain as in another thread HD has been better for sometime than it was too.

 

[zippyfrog]

Zippy, thank you so much for pointing this out. When I first went back to DISH I tried watching some of these channels but came to avoid them due to the poor video quality. I hope they are in the process of fixing all of the SD channels. The only one I can compare to OTA is LAFF and it is dramatically better on satellite.

Yeah - I mentioned here in Chicago that LAFF is now better in SD on Dish than it is OTA. The other one that I can compare that is significantly better is BUZZR on 245. Since so many of those shows are older and originally shot in 480p, the SD bandwidth allocation is more than enough. The Bob Barker Price is Right episodes from the 1980's that were on yesterday looked miles better than my OTA BUZZR that is a subchannel on FOX here.

 

[zippyfrog]

I have all the remaining Super Channels also and no question an improvement. I maintain as in another thread HD has been better for sometime than it was too.

I am wondering if Dish changed some other parameters as well for HD as well as SD. They haven't moved any of the national channels onto other transponders, so that means they had to do something with the compression.

This is where I would need someone to chime in who knows more - but my VIP211k is showing everything, so the codec still must be MPEG-4 and the modulation 8PSK. My first thought when I look at this picture quality is an upgrade in codec to AVC or HEVC, but I am pretty sure the VIP211k cannot play those codecs.

The other piece would be the error correction - I believe that if you decrease the amount of bits for overhead correction that you can get more bandwidth for the video. Dish used to have 2/3 for the HD channels and was it 5/6 for SD? Could those have been changed to something like 7/8 to give more bandwidth available for video?

I don't know all the nuiances, but I am wondering if something like that has happened. This is where I wish someone had TS-Reader working and could run the Network Information Table report on what is coming down. We would know the Modulation, Symbol Rate, and FEC right away for each transponder.

 

[winter60]

In checking over your lists, I am finding it is the "Letterbox" channels that have the worse issue. For example, Hallmark Family (186) is currently showing "Little House on the Prairie" and it is a native 4:3 program. If I set the Aspect to "Normal" the program displays in the correct 4:3 aspect, but commercials are letterboxed and have a black border on all sides. If I set the aspect to "Zoom", the commercials are correct but the native 4:3 program is too stretched with even the channel logo in the lower righthand corner is off the screen.

This is the same issue with FeTV (82), and TVLand (106) but most FeTV programs are native 4:3 so leaving the aspect set to "Normal" works except for the commercials. Channels that mostly show native 16:9 programs (i.e. Encore channels) are fine with the Aspect set to "Zoom", but channels that flip back and forth need user intervention with the aspect option to watch correctly. If Dish Network set these channels up like they did when they had Cozi TV, all would be perfect (see my previous post). You would just leave the Aspect set to "Stretch" and both 4:3 and 16:9 programs would display perfect with "hands-off" user intervention.

 

[navychop]

This is where I wish someone had TS-Reader working and could run the Network Information Table report on what is coming down. We would know the Modulation, Symbol Rate, and FEC right away for each transponder.

Didn't we used to have someone do this? And stopped, or was forced to stop? Whose name shall not be mentioned?

 

[MikeD-C05]

Did Dish Network make some of these changes recently?

Also, on a different but similar note, I think I once read that the Hopper Plus lacks an aspect button. Maybe this has been corrected, but if not, that alone is a reason for me to NOT consider a Hopper Plus.

The hopper has an aspect ratio menu under options. My buddy has the older Hopper with Sling and you just hit options and it comes up along with other items you can adjust. He has the Plus hooked up to the hopper too and it still works with it.

 

[zippyfrog]

In checking over your lists, I am finding it is the "Letterbox" channels that have the worse issue. For example, Hallmark Family (186) is currently showing "Little House on the Prairie" and it is a native 4:3 program. If I set the Aspect to "Normal" the program displays in the correct 4:3 aspect, but commercials are letterboxed and have a black border on all sides. If I set the aspect to "Zoom", the commercials are correct but the native 4:3 program is too stretched with even the channel logo in the lower righthand corner is off the screen.

This is the same issue with FeTV (82), and TVLand (106) but most FeTV programs are native 4:3 so leaving the aspect set to "Normal" works except for the commercials. Channels that mostly show native 16:9 programs (i.e. Encore channels) are fine with the Aspect set to "Zoom", but channels that flip back and forth need user intervention with the aspect option to watch correctly. If Dish Network set these channels up like they did when they had Cozi TV, all would be perfect (see my previous post). You would just leave the Aspect set to "Stretch" and both 4:3 and 16:9 programs would display perfect with "hands-off" user intervention.

Yeah - I think whatever format it is, they should all be the same so all the channels would be the same without user intervention! Either all 16:9 or what you mention - to me those are the only two that would work with no user intervention.

 

[winter60]

The hopper has an aspect ratio menu under options. My buddy has the older Hopper with Sling and you just hit options and it comes up along with other items you can adjust. He has the Plus hooked up to the hopper too and it still works with it.

It was the Hopper Plus I was talking about. I have a Hopper 3 with 2 Joey 3 clients and I also have a Wally. On all of them, I have programed the lower left hand button on the remote (with the single diamond) to adjust aspect ratio.

I thought I once read the Hopper Plus add-on unit, because it was Android, lacked the feature to change the aspect, but Dish was working on it to add the feature and maybe now have they have it.

 

[dishrich]

This is the same issue with FeTV (82), and TVLand (106) but most FeTV programs are native 4:3 so leaving the aspect set to "Normal" works except for the commercials.

Another issue that can cause these aspect issues, is where DISH is ingesting these feeds from. In the case of FeTV, DISH is most likely using their (SD) network satellite feed, which is causing the issues (with letterboxed commercials) you describe.
OTOH, Comcast recently added an HD IP-based feed of FeTV on a large number of their systems; when viewing it, all of the programming is properly formatted as it was originally produced (commercials in proper 16:9, 4:3 shows in their proper native format) w/out having to mess with changing aspect on an HDTV. With Comcast sending it out in HD, while the commercials obviously look good, even the old 4:3 programs look better than normal.
DISH could easily switch to the HD IP feed, then simply downconvert it to SD 16:9 & it would solve these problems; it would probably improve the SD picture quality to boot.

 

[winter60]

dishrich, what is interesting is that Dish Network uploads FeTV in HD to Dish Anywhere. When watching FeTV on Dish Anywhere, everything views properly and the channel is in HD!

 

[Almighty1]

It was the Hopper Plus I was talking about. I have a Hopper 3 with 2 Joey 3 clients and I also have a Wally. On all of them, I have programed the lower left hand button on the remote (with the single diamond) to adjust aspect ratio.

I thought I once read the Hopper Plus add-on unit, because it was Android, lacked the feature to change the aspect, but Dish was working on it to add the feature and maybe now have they have it.

The Hopper Plus connected to a Hopper 3 does have the aspect ratio as I used it a few weeks ago, it didn't have it originally when I got the Hopper Plus a few years ago. It's Options and then Display Format.