Smallest EMWIN antenna

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did you find a quieter place in your yard that would work better for a receive location?
Unfortunately no. Obviously the noise was higher if I was pointed in the direction of the tower. However, there wasn't a quiet area to be found.

Is your siding on your house metal, or anything metallic?
Fiber cement siding. Shouldn't affect anything.

Do you think putting some metal screening on that west fence and then placing the dish directly next to it would work? I could paint the screen the same color as the fence and you'd never notice it was there.

I'm going to recommend to NOAA that they leave the current EMWIN alone
I've never understood why they decided to combine LRIT and EMWIN to begin with. I get that it would be a more efficient use of spectrum but they're combining a service meant to be received by smaller dishes with a service that requires a larger dish for any kind of stability. A lot of people with current EMWIN installations aren't going to be able to install a bigger dish.

As a side note, I'm wondering what the transmit power for the HRIT/EMWIN stream would be. If it's higher than the current LRIT transmit power then that may help a little with the stability of the signal with smaller dishes.

I recommend you contact your federal congress critters about this
I'm going to write a letter this weekend to our lovely elected persons. Anyone who wants to do the same and needs contact information can just toss your postal code into the box on this site: http://whoismyrepresentative.com/
 
A structure will significantly attenuate line of sight terrestrial interference @ 1600MHz. Check the local interference measured with your home providing an rf shield between the tower and proposed antenna location.

If a structure wasn't an option, we used to build "RF Fences" out of chicken wire fence material to block microwaves from interfering with the the 3.7-4.2 C-band satellite service.
 
I would try anything you can come up with to block that tower. At this point you can't really go wrong.
According to the GOES R team the combo. of EMWIN/LRIT will not affect antenna size, it is going to affect the receiver of your current EMWIN.
From what Bill Warner told me is the bandwith currently at 20KHz will go to 2Mhz wide to support all the data and it's going to be BPSK instead of OQPSK. So all our current receivers would have to be changed out. Due to that bandwith the SDR's won't work as well. But due to the National Broadband Plan there isn't enough spectrum left for the New HRIT signal between GRB and what FCC sold off.
That's going to be one of the topics that NOAA will talk about on that webinar on April the 14.
Anybody that has any interest should sign up it's free.
Thanks for putting up the reps. contact info, it is important to get this out and let everyone know.
AND..... after trying and trying I found a way to get EMWIN ot work off HDSDR.
I included a screenshot at 3 AM of my labor.
EMWIN with HDSDR.jpg
Though it still has a problem, that is the I/Q are very weak see the box labeled (input signal level) this number should be no less than 10, mine here on my 8' dish with the EMWIN 2 receiver is 340. The signal in the screenshot should be 400 or so by it's strength.
And as we speak I have been writing up the info the the IMPD grid antenna and should have it up here soon.
 
Crank up the volume slider and input signal level should come up.
Howd you manage to get that working Tim? :)
 
Outatyme I figured you'd ask me that, so here goes
My EMWIN 2 reciever works as a downconverter, and so does the one that was prototyped by Avtec. They use a mixer to beat the LO and Input frequencies together (are the same) to get a difference of 0 Hz. Note the frequency reading. They also have an amp at the I/Q outputs.

139.200 Mhz subtract 139.200 Mhz LO = 0 Hz

The SDR is capable of doing mixing as a setting upconverter/downconverter in the LO settings.
It occurred to me that I could try this to get the I/Q (IF) to come out at near 0 Hz.
It worked, but the I/Q are not controlled by the volume control. They are the raw IF coming out of the SDR at 0 Hz or near that. So to what I think their amplitude is directly tied to the voltage the RF is producing at the IF output. Putting an amp on the input of the SDR may help fix this but I'm not totally shure.
What I do know is that the I/Q can be recorded and is almost non existent but through audacity I can up the gain of the recorded I/Q to make it easily readable.
HDSDR can output the I/Q, but the I/Q is output at the frequency that the SDR is tuned to, so when it was tuned to 77 Mhz the I/Q were output at 77 Mhz, 139.200 Mhz alike.
HDSDR outputs the audio but that is only single channel and not when the I/Q out setting is selected, the audio is controlled through the controls and can get quite loud.
The recording controls are turned fully up, If you what a recording I can get you one.
Their might be one more option to try, that SDR has a Lo frequency setting and a high frequency setting. Currently I am on the high setting.
It's possible that the I/Q may come out better on the lower setting. Technically the SDR shouldn't work at this low of IF, speck states that 100 KHz is as low as it goes.
 
Haven't forgotten about this. Just been a little under the weather the last couple of days. I should have a dish sorted by the end of next week. In the meantime, attached are some photos of the feeds I made. Not as pretty as I like but I figure they'll do.
 

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Good News on my end!!... the man across the road called last night and said come get the dish(BUD)
Its a 6-8 foot mesh in good shape, so in the next wek or so I should have a good EMWIN signal
to test Joes software on. "2xohwhatever" what type of can did u make the feed out of???
I may use that as my feed for the BUD.

Trip - KT4WO
 
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doubleohwhatever,
Looking good. Just remember put some foam, the pink or blue type or bead board type (better) UV don't effect it, in the mouth of the can so the spiders and other pests stay out.
Trip I don't know if you seen my pictures of the IMPD grid antenna in the previous posts but that may be something you can try with your grid there if you decide to try with it again.
Also Trip do you have the formula for calculating the feed distance for that dish?
I still am going to put up the info on the IMPD grid just have been busy here so haven't had the time. Got most of it ready to post.
And an update on the HDSDR decoding EMWIN. I have been running it today for a awhile now and considering the non optimum software setup I am getting 1.3 - 1.5% error rate off the grid I made.
But I believe that most of the errors are in the IF to demodulator part not the signal which looks great on the waterfall display.
Also must make a correction on the post above about setting up HDSDR. I said you must tune the IF to 0 Hz well by "just try this" method I has something strange happen. I used the SDR as a receiver not a downconverter and tuned to the downconverted output frequency. In this case 77 Mhz.
Tested the demodulator and by gosh it locked!, The I/Q is still weak (as stated above) but it's better then tuning to 0 Hz. If you ask why well.... I have no clue.
The EMWIN webinar has been postponed until Tuesday 19th due to tech problems.
 
Well gents, I think it's time for me to call it quits on this for a while. I got the new dish up today and all it seems to do is catch more noise. Worse yet, the new dish catches an additional noise source... Outdoor HVAC units. There are at least 20 units within 1000ft and each time one kicks on, more noise spikes appear.

So with this in mind I'm going to shelve this project for a while as I need to get to some other stuff that's been piling up. Eventually, I think I'm going to grab one of the werner labs dishes and try putting that on the opposite side of the house. There's a spot I can hide a mesh dish but not a larger dish. That would block the cell tower completely.
 
outatyme,
Setting up HDSDR for EMWIN is tricky and temperamental.
I will tell you step by step to see it if will work.
If needed,
Start HDSDR make shure you're on LO A, and set to FM.
First tune to a known station on antenna and calibrate LO.
To do this after tuning to known station and if frequency is off go to:
Options/ RF front end + freq calibrate/ LO frequency calibrate.: in the correct tune frequency box enter the correct tune frequency then click Calibrate.
EMWIN Settings:
1. Start HDSDR make shure you're on LO A, and set to FM
2. Set frequency to antenna output or downconverter output. (latest test)
3. Bandwith button (F6) output set to 44100 OR 48000 (latest test) one may work better than the other.
4. Same location bandwith input 96000
5. Options/ select input/ soundcard
6. Options/ Input channel mode for RX/ I/Q
7. Options/ Output channel mode for RX/ IF as Q/I (may have to reverse these but this is the way mine works)
8. Options/ RF front end + freq calibrate/ SDR hardware coupling: Set to SDR on antenna if not already(latest test)
9. Options/ Misc options/ set LO <-> tune offset/ 5000
10. Options/ Input channel calibrate for RX/ Channel adjustment panel, Sliders to the left (raw), (fine) slide all the way to the top (max setting), click OK button.

If all is working you should see CCSDS frames begin to increase and errors as well that means you are close to the frequency to get a lock. You may have to toggle the start stop button a few times and adjust the center frequency as well.
it's a whole lot of playin to get it to work well, I have never got better then 1.3% error rate. The blue bandwith stripe has no effect on performance as it's sampling the I/Q directly.
Good luck
 
You have had some issues there doubleohwhatever, just seems to be a RF garbage area. If I were closer I would come over to help as I know how frustrating it can be.
I know your done for awhile but if you get some screen pis up that would be nice to see what you're seeing.
I just thought of something, you still have that grid antenna and all your gear. When you get a little more time go to a place...mabie a park or somewhere you can get away from the RF your having problems with and do a tactical setup. That way if you can get it working you will have it set if you can find a way to null out all the garbage where you live. + it gives you motivation. Just a suggestion.
 
I'm definitely not completely giving up. I'm going to order the antenna from werner labs and I'll try again when my LNA from down east microwave arrives in 2-3 weeks. I'm very suspicious that my LNA is under-performing for some reason.
 
IMPD Grid antenna
Since I have been reading this forum and learning about theses antennas I wanted my own attempt to make one. The price is right and it's easy enough to make.
I also noticed how other users were having problems with the size of the 1M antenna and how touchy it is. So I wanted to try to make something that could be used in portable setups and in the case of doubleohwhatever used also in Home owners Assns.
And this is what I came up with.
Starters, I have never attempted using a dish less that 8' (2.39M) to receive anything from the GOES spacecraft so this was a new venture for me. I know that using small dishes at the L band are not very efficient. This is due to reflector size and feed match/ shadowing issues.
Though the offset dish has advantages over this due to the feed being removed from the signal path. In the case of the 1.2M dish it worked very well.
I also had discussions about reflector size on here as well and stick with my opinion that the 1M antenna size is very close to signal threshold for EMWIN. As far as I have known that the smallest antenna recommended was 4' (1.2M). Also I understand that size of dish may not be available or allowed for most.
The gird antenna is a simple dipole fed reflector designed for 2.4 Ghz not as one website said 1.7 Ghz. In other words this is a WIFI antenna. The antenna is primary intended to send and receive WIFI in local areas house to house or across town, It was never intended to receive a faint signal from a satellite on geostationary orbit. But that don't mean that it can't.
The antenna: TP LINK grid parabolic antenna part # tl-ant2424b
Found for 50 bucks NEW each at Officemax/Office depot this is a surperb choice.
Let get some understanding of antenna gain. Antenna gain is a function of (in this case) reflector size in relation to frequency and antenna efficiency. An antenna that has a gain of 24dBi at 2.4Ghz will not the same gain at 1.6 Ghz, it will be less.
Also an antenna that is resonant at 2.4 may not be efficient at 1.6 Ghz.
The difference in physical size is about 1/2", this is very important when your working with these high frequencies. Trip in an earlier discussion made the dipole elements longer which made the antenna much more resonant at the frequencies of interest but he left an important part out of his improvement. He left out that as he made the driven element longer so does the reflector distance increase. Though he did increase the reflector's length.
These antennas use a reflector in front of the dipole (driven element) to capture signal from the reflector. The proper reflector distance is a function of wavelength at the frequency of interest.
To find this in free air 234 divide by frequency times 12 = inches.

Exp. 234 divide 1690 = .138, times 12 = 1.66

What does this tell us... the 1/4 wavelength of 1690 MHz is 1.66"
Lets try another:

234 divide 2450 = .095, times 12 = 1.14"

What does this tell us... the 1/4 wavelength of 2450 MHz is 1.14"
See the difference. Just because the antenna receives at a frequency doesn't mean it does it well. A quick understanding of the dipole, It's impedance is 50 ohms and it doesn't need any power. It is a 1/2 wavelength long (1/4 wavelength on each leg) and it receives off of it's edges but the tips are a null point in it's reception. This element is basic and has uni gain (none) ,it's used as antenna by itself on HF a lot and in yagis for the driven element. It's attractive due to no impedance transformation needs to happen as it's already 50 ohms.
Stock grid feed.JPG
For this antenna and models alike it's good choice for the driven element combined with the sub reflector it illuminates the reflector pretty well with minimum overspill and keeps shadowing to a minimum.
But it does have it's drawbacks in this case, it can receive of off it's edges and the subreflector has slots in it, this is a place that strong unwanted signals can cause problems.
Yes, the slots are opposite of the polarization of the driven element and due to this unwanted signals would be roughly 3 dB down. However it don't take a very strong unwanted signal to cover up the weak signal your're listening for. So an improvement would be needed to the sub reflector to make is solid. The only signals you want the dipole to hear are the ones coming from the grid reflector. This was partially proven when I told doubleohwhatever to cover up the grid reflector with tin foil and he got rid of some of the unwanted garbage.
Finished reflector.JPG
The big improvement that made this antenna "improved" was to make the grid reflector just a bit larger, not much but enough. This would be done with a very basic idea, add to it. The finished reflector now measures 48" across
IMPD Grid front GOES E.JPG
Construction......
Starts when the UPS guy arrived with two big boxes.
The project requires for ease 2 antennas though you could make the changes needed to the grid reflector using other methods you must keep it parabolic for it to work well.
Once I determined that the reflectors would lay on each other it was time to look at the feed for the antenna. TP link has done a great job weather proofing their feeds. The plastic is thick and tough and as you can see I cut the top off to get to the driven element (above). The best way to get through the plastic is by saw, I used a razor saw.
Stock Grid feed 1.JPG
All one needs access to is the ends of the dipole. These are in the lower bottom of the cover so you should only need to cut half way up and about a 1/4" from the edge to be able to solder extensions to the dipole to make it work for the L band. A 50 watt soldering iron worked for me,
don't use a ton of heat as you don't want to melt the coax and the support plastic.
Dipole proper length.JPG
Reweather proofing is up to you just don't use anything metal or that could degrade the reception of the antenna.
I used a stainless bolt to reattach the dipole reflector to the feed cover (after I rewelded it together). The distance is 1 1/2" wavelengths from the dipole, 2 1/2" Interesting huh. From the case it's 1 1/4". Tapped the plastic for the bolt and use a nut to hold in place
Finished case.JPG
Extending the feed was done by using tap bolts to the length needed. Threaded rods shown. Dimensions shown in picture below.
Extension detail.JPG Focal length datail.JPG
One thing I don't like about this antenna is the mounting bracket is far less then stable for my desires. I would rebuild this with something more stable as you don't want the antenna moving as this can affect the error rate.
Some final suggestions, I would replace the dipole reflector with a solid sheet of material the same size and angles as the original. Another thing to improve the noise and strong unwanted signals is to use window screen on the back of the grid reflector to keep it out.
But remember that the more screen you add the more windload that antenna has, so I would keep the screen coverage around 50 to at the most 75% of the reflector keeping most of the screen towards the center.
The IMPD antenna works well for it's size and is easy to make.
 
doubleohwhatever,
You have 2 LNA's and their bolth doing this?
LNA's can be funny if you have strong signals coming in other then the intended one that you're after. It's like an overload condition.
I've gotten the impression that you know your way around this stuff so I'm going to ask a simple question. Are you absolutely shure that your voltage it where is should be and that you're power supply is clean? Dirty power supplies can cause tons of unwanted issues. Wall warts are notorious for it, must install filter caps if it don't have any and even if it does suspect they could be bad. Had that issue happen with my GVAR power supply (the caps went bad and had to replace).
Usually if the filter in the PS go bad you would see it in the display as ripple noise.
When you put up your pictures of your grid antenna it looked not too bad besides the unwanted signals there. Like outatyme said.
I figured you weren't going to give up, but I am wondering if another antenna isn't going to help the issue since you've tried several.
Remember that you have 2 grid antennas there and I just posted the details to make the IMPD grid antenna, In your case just add to the grid reflector with the other antenna that you put away to get a little better gain. You can get away with the feed for now (solid up the dipole reflector) you should be able to see some kind of data. You can set up anywhere around you house to see if you can get away from the RF garbage on a temporary basis.
 
You have 2 LNA's and their bolth doing this?
I just have the one from mini-circtuits at the moment. That's why I'm waiting on the one I ordered from down east microwave. I want to use that one as a comparison to the mini-circuits LNA to see if indeed the mini-circuits LNA is not functioning properly like I suspect.

Are you absolutely shure that your voltage it where is should be and that you're power supply is clean?
Reasonably certain (can never be certain). I've tried several different power supplies over the course of trying to figure this out just to be sure that wasn't the issue. At the moment I'm using one of these:
www.amazon.com/SUPERNIGHT-Switching-Power-Supply-Strip/dp/B007MWNF5Q/

I am wondering if another antenna isn't going to help the issue since you've tried several
I'm glad you mentioned this. I was under the impression that the werner labs antenna was tuned and designed for 1.7Ghz. However, I've just now went back to their site and I'm not seeing anything that states this. I had figured that if it was designed for 1.7Ghz then I would purchase it because in my tough RF environment I'm going to need every advantage possible. Now I'm wondering if it's not just the same 2.4ghz antenna design we've all been playing with.

I just posted the details to make the IMPD grid antenna
I'm going to give this a go and see where it gets me. I think if I can get just a little more gain I can make this work.
 
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Great writeup Tim!
I think that it IS the same design as the wifi antennas.
doubleoh, you had pretty good signal before other than noise and much of the noise looked like out of band noise that was overloading the frontend of the radio.
Try running with no LNA and plugging the SDR straight into the dish if you can. See what effect this has on noise. If it greatly reduces the noise (the desired signal will be weaker too) then that means that strong out of band signals are overloading the SDR when they get amplified by the LNA.
 
Paragraph correction: IMPD grid antenna
--------------------
Reweather proofing is up to you just don't use anything metal or that could degrade the reception of the antenna.
I used a stainless bolt to reattach the dipole reflector to the feed cover (after I rewelded it together). The distance is 1 1/2 wavelengths from the dipole, 2 1/2" Interesting huh. From the case it's 1 1/4". Tapped the plastic for the bolt and use a nut against case support to lock and hold in place.

doubleohwhatever
Ahh, I was under the impression that you had 2. I bought one of mini Circuits ZX60-P103LN+ after you got yours and it seems to work good. Though have not tried it up at that high of frequency. One important thing to mention that I have not seen here. This applies to everyone.
Any of the active parts of these microwave systems, downconverters, LNA's , receivers any part that is active you MUST take static discharge precautions.
Such as here where I am at, It has been real dry and static is high. Anytime I go to touch any of my active gear I touch something metal and try to ground myself before I touch it. If you have a static discharge on your active parts of microwave gear you can be pretty much shure you've ruined it.

I will get back to you on the power supply, though since you have tried several I would say that you have eliminated that possibility. But you can never overlook it no matter how simple it may seem or be.

I think it's the same antenna that we have been messing with just painted white, the white paint isn't going to help reception.

You got the 2 antennas use them, their already paid for and your're not going to destroy them in the process of building the IMPD antenna. I used plastic ties to hold the grid reflector together on mine but I wouldn't use this as a long term solution as those get brittle in UV.

Thanks outatyme, glad I can contribute something here.
For the purpose of seeing if you having some sort of receiver overload on the SDR that will work but with no amp of some kind I think it would be real hard to get the EMWIN signal on just the antenna. But it's worth a try.
 
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