Time to upgrade? cable question (and maybe more)

[nwflyboy]

First, a simple question (I think) and then maybe some more complex issues...

(sorry for the length of my post, I'm only slightly informed on this stuff and wanted to provide all the details needed to orient me - please be gentle)

Is it true that a coax cable is not capable of transmitting HD programming?

The reason I ask is because that's what I was told by a support person from the manufacturer of my new TV, when asked why the image quality on this nice TV was so poor. They said that coax cable (which is how this TV is connected to its signal source) is simply not able to carry an HD signal. While that sounds plausible to me (I know nothing), I wanted to get confirmation that this is indeed true before taking any further steps, because it could be complete BS, too.

Here's more background on my setup...

We have had Dish service in the house for about 3 years* (maybe it's time for me to renegotiate - see below) . I got Dish when we replaced our old, primary TV in our living room. At the time, we dumped Comcast (a move that made me very happy), junked our old analog tube TV and got a decent flat screen Vizio TV (we'll call this TV#1). Before the switch to Dish, we had 3 TVs in the house, all analog tube TVs: one downstairs in the living room (TV#1), one upstairs in the master bedroom (TV#2), and one small one in an upstairs office (TV#3). All three TVs had existing coax cables that had been used previously for the Comcast feed. When we switched to Dish, we got one new TV for the living room (TV#1), replacing the old analog TV that was there. On installation day, Dish brought us a VIP722, which we located adjacent to the new TV#1 in the living room. I also have an external HD connected to the VIP722 via USB. The VIP722 is connected to the adjacent TV#1 via HDMI cable. The picture on TV#1 looks good, from live TV to recordings (of course, HD content looks better than SD). TV#2 upstairs in the bedroom was an older analog tube TV, which we expected to replace some day (some day came a couple weeks ago). This TV was fed by a coax cable. The picture quality on TV#2 was OK, not super, but it was what we expected on an analog TV. Recently, I decided to replace TV#2, swapping in a new Vizio E480i-B2 (48" class) TV. I hooked it up using the same coax cable that had been feeding the older TV it replaced. The picture quality is not good, viewing either live or recorded HD programs - it's a bit fuzzy, muddy and obviously not what the TV is capable of. We also have a (new) Bluray disk player connected to the new TV#2 via HDMI cable, and the picture quality from that is spectacular. When viewing any signal coming from the VIP722 (via coax cable), the TV (TV#2, new) says it's displaying 480i. When viewing a DVD or Bluray disk from the Bluray player, the TV says it's displaying 1080p.

Both TV#1 and TV#2 draw their signal from the VIP722 (programs recorded to the VIP722 hard disk are available on both TVs).

(TV#3 has not changed. That's a small, analog TV in an upstairs office that is fed by another coax, going into a VIP211K. No issues with that, low expectations there, not part of this question.)

I called Vizio product support and related the above. The Vizio CS agent said that the new TV#2 will not be able to display HD as long as it's being fed from the VIP722 via coax. Coax doesn't have HD capacity. Hmmm.

The signal from the actual satellite dish itself goes to a cable junction box (on the side of the house). That first run of cable looks like HDMI or some other high capacity cable - it's not a round cable like coax, it's flat and thick. But running *out* of the cable junction box, there are three coax cables. One goes to (I assume) the VIP722, one goes to TV#2 upstairs, and a third goes to TV#3 upstairs - at least that's my guess, I have not followed each cable all the way (cables run along the house exterior; it's night time now so I can't easily see all runs, but I'm pretty sure I have it right).

So it appears that a high-capacity cable delivers the sat feed to this junction box, and from there, all remaining cable appears to be coax - except for the short connection directly from the VIP722 to TV#1 (and the connection directly from the new Bluray player to TV#2).

This appears to be how things are wired (I hope the formatting is preserved...):

-------------------------------------------- --- TV#2 (bedroom upstairs)
------------------------------------------/
dish -- junction box ====
------------------------------------------\
-------------------------------------------- --- VIP722 + TV#1 (living rm)


All single cable coax here, except for the first run of cable from the sat dish to the junction box.
I am guessing that the signal between the junction box and the VIP722 must be bi-directional - is that possible? - since it appears to be the only connection between the VIP722 and the junction box. It must feed the incoming signal to the VIP722, then carry the output from the VIP722 back to the junction box, where it then goes up (again via coax) to TV#2 upstairs. If that's not how it's working, then I'm stumped.

OK, so that's how things appear to be wired, at least to me.

Given all the coax in the mix, I am skeptical that the information provided to me from Vizio tech support was accurate and complete.

So my questions...

- How do I ensure that I'm getting an HD-quality feed from the VIP722 up to TV#2 upstairs?
- Was the Vizio tech correct in telling me that the problem is the coax cable feeding the TV?
- If so, is the solution to run HDMI up to TV#2?
- Or is the issue really just a setting? If so, is that a Dish setting, or a setting on the TV?
- Basically, who do I call next to resolve this - Dish or Vizio?

*It has been well over 2 years since we signed up for Dish. Is now a good time to try to renegotiate our subscription - or is that a fantasy? This is a separate question, but if I have to call them and they need to come do some cable work, maybe I could kill 2 birds with one stone. Just a thought. Right now I'm mostly interested in addressing the picture quality issues on TV#2.

Thanks for your help and for any suggestions.

 

[savechad]

So my questions...

- How do I ensure that I'm getting an HD-quality feed from the VIP722 up to TV#2 upstairs?
- Was the Vizio tech correct in telling me that the problem is the coax cable feeding the TV?
- If so, is the solution to run HDMI up to TV#2?
- Or is the issue really just a setting? If so, is that a Dish setting, or a setting on the TV?
- Basically, who do I call next to resolve this - Dish or Vizio?

HD content is only displayed via an HDMI or component connection.
HD can be transferred via various means, coax being one. The connections that matter are the ones between the receiver box and your televisions. To get a true HD picture, connect your TVs with HDMI cables. The only settings you'll need to look at are the picture format settings after you connect everything with HDMI cables, you'll want to make sure that is set to 1080. Those settings are on both the receiver, and probably your TVs.
Bottom line: get yourself a bunch of HDMI cables to make sure you're getting the best picture and all you're paying for.

Also, call Dish or better yet; get in touch with a DIRT member to help you get a great deal on programming.

Good luck.

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[ChadT41]

Also, if looking to upgrade, get the hopper Joey setup. It will cost more, yes, but it is dishes only whole home hd DVr. That's just to add on to the previous comment. Not take away from.

 

[DWS44]

It should also be noted that the TV2 output from a 722 is specifically-designed NOT to send an HD signal over that coax connection. It is a limitation of the receiver. In theory, you could buy an HDMI splitter and run HDMI cables to both locations, which is what I think savechad was suggesting; however, you'd be limited to watching the same thing on both TVs because you'd just be splitting the TV1 HDMI output.

Bottom line is...if you want independent viewing of HD channels at BOTH of your TV locations (i.e. both TVs being able to watch different channels simultaneously), you'll need to upgrade to a Hopper/Joey setup. Contact one of our DIRT reps here on the board and see what they can offer you!

 

[bigjohnok]

or get 2 612's

 

[osumike]

Maybe even more understandable: to get a true HD picture on each TV, you will need a receiver at each TV. That basically "converts" the sat feed, allowing it to be delivered to the TV via hdmi, giving you the picture quality you're looking for.

 

[nwflyboy]

Thanks for the replies so far.

It appears that there are actually (at least) two problems, not just one:

1. TV#2 will never get HD content from the VIP722, no matter what kind of gold-plated cables-spun-from-the-hair-of-angels I might use to connect it
2. Coax won't work to feed an HD signal to that TV regardless of its source

Correct?

 

[bigjohnok]

Thanks for the replies so far.

It appears that there are actually (at least) two problems, not just one:

1. TV#2 will never get HD content from the VIP722, no matter what kind of gold-plated cables-spun-from-the-hair-of-angels I might use to connect it
2. Coax won't work to feed an HD signal to that TV regardless of its source

Correct?

coax can carry the signal but it has to have a box to convert that signal back into hd video.
with a 722 the tv2 output is just a video signal basically the same as an analog cable signal.

 

[nwflyboy]

coax can carry the signal but it has to have a box to convert that signal back into hd video.
with a 722 the tv2 output is just a video signal basically the same as an analog cable signal.

So, coax can carry the signal (perhaps compressed/encoded?), but there needs to be a box to convert it back to HD video (uncompressed, unencoded?). Once converted back to HD video, it sounds like can not be fed to a TV via coax (at least not at full HD).

This all makes sense (well, to me...) if the signal from the sat dish is compressed (requires less bandwidth, so it can go via coax), then the signal is uncompressed/re-endoded by the box, at which point the feed is then bigger (quantity of data) and needs a higher capacity cable to ride to the TV.

So it does sound like we will need to replace the 722 (if we want HD going to TV#2). We cant simply run HDMI from the 722 to TV#2.
It also sounds like we won't be able to access recorded programs from either TV#1 or TV#2 (as we do now) if they're recorded to the same unit.

Ugh.

Starting to reconsider the whole "I've been happy with Dish" thing.

 

[ChadT41]

Ugh.

Starting to reconsider the whole "I've been happy with Dish" thing.

It's not just dish. This is with anyone. That is why they, like many companies, came out with the hopper, the WHOLE HOME hd DVr. It can feed hd to all TVs, because it uses the moca system to connect other "boxes" called joeys.

 

[nwflyboy]

It's not just dish. This is with anyone. That is why they, like many companies, came out with the hopper, the WHOLE HOME hd DVr. It can feed hd to all TVs, because it uses the moca system to connect other "boxes" called joeys.

Oh, I know how large companies operate (I work for one - just not one that plays in this market/technology). I have had my share of "honeymoon" times with various giant companies and my "I-will-NEVER-give-you-a-dime-EVER-again-you-evil-rat-basturds!" times with a few, too (cough-cough-comcast...). That said, I have generally been quite pleased with Dish since I started with them. We'll see if that continues.

So, I take it that the Hopper is the "master" box (receives the feed from the sat dish, contains one or more tuners, decompresses/decrypts/encodes the feed from the sat dish, has an internal DVR, distributes and feeds whatever is downstream?), and the Joey is the unit that receives the feed from the Hopper, and in turn controls/feeds each TV....more or less?

Moca system? First I've seen that mentioned. A Java-based system (or maybe an acronym...)?

 

[bigjohnok]

moca=multimedia over coaxial cable.
I have the hopper and 2 joeys and a super joey. The one downfall to this system is if the hopper goes kaput you lose all tv, where as with individual receivers if a receiver goes kaput you only lose tv in that one room.

 

[ChadT41]

I should have called it a moca network. But I am so used to downplaying everything and using simple words over the phone. I apologize.

 

[satnewb]

IMO you do want a Hopper/Joey setup. Also IMO if you've had dish for more that 2 years and are out of contract you should call before you upgrade and negotiate for the best possible rate. They can and will offer discounts if you "decide to cancel". Being out of contract is your best leverage. Any equipment upgrade will trigger an additional 2 year contract, at which point they have you by the short hairs.

The Marsupial system is really a great way to watch tv, but you may as well get it as cheap as possible.

 

[nwflyboy]

IMO you do want a Hopper/Joey setup. Also IMO if you've had dish for more that 2 years and are out of contract you should call before you upgrade and negotiate for the best possible rate. They can and will offer discounts if you "decide to cancel". Being out of contract is your best leverage. Any equipment upgrade will trigger an additional 2 year contract, at which point they have you by the short hairs.

The Marsupial system is really a great way to watch tv, but you may as well get it as cheap as possible.

Indeed. I am definitely out of contract. And, although I have been pretty happy with Dish, I certainly would consider alternatives - especially now that it's time for me to decide on which way to go for the next while.

All things (incentives) being equal, I'm inclined to go with someone affiliated with this forum (the DIRT guys, I assume). But I'm also fairly price sensitive, so looking for the best deal available.

What's the best way to approach them?

 

[dwarren2]

With the Hopper/Joey set up, the cables from the dish connect to a node. Then coax from the node feeds each Joey/Hopper.

 

[boba]

Indeed. I am definitely out of contract. And, although I have been pretty happy with Dish, I certainly would consider alternatives - especially now that it's time for me to decide on which way to go for the next while.

All things (incentives) being equal, I'm inclined to go with someone affiliated with this forum (the DIRT guys, I assume). But I'm also fairly price sensitive, so looking for the best deal available.

What's the best way to approach them?

DIRT is not affiliated with this forum, it stands for Dish Internet Response Team, they are employees of DISH and they monitor other sites. They are different from DISH CSRs in that they know things and get the job done fairly smoothly.

 

[satnewb]

Any price negotiations will likely be done thru the retention department. I called to cancel with every intention of actually cancelling. I declined several offers until they worked all the way up to a $45x12 month bill credit. My account has always been in good standing, autopay etc, and I do have several friend referrals on the account as well. I'm sure they take everything into consideration. Just be polite and friendly and see what they can do.

 

[oldengineer]

I'm currently out of contract and my cableco ran a full page in today's paper about their new whole home service. I'm waiting for more info but a 6 tuner dvr, full channel lineup, including BTN, CSN and TCN, which I can't get or have to pay extra for, is $153/mo for 4 tvs and that includes 15Mbps internet. Right now I'm paying 173/mo for AEP and 2H/2J plus 49.95 for internet with my cableco. The 153 doesn't include premiums but I could get HBO/SHO for 32 and still be $40-$50 a month below Dish. It's tempting.

 

[nwflyboy]

With the Hopper/Joey set up, the cables from the dish connect to a node. Then coax from the node feeds each Joey/Hopper.

Could you please elaborate on the details of the cabling (and this "node" you refer to), so I better understand?

Right now, we have HDMI (I believe) running from the actual sat dish (on the roof) to a plastic junction box on the exterior of our house. (Is this plastic jucntion box the "node" you're referring to? If not, what is the node?) Then there are 3 coax cables going out from the plastic junction box to....

• one coax goes from the junction box to the 722 in the living room (there's a HD TV#1 connected directly to the 722 via HDMI)
  
• one coax goes from the junction box to TV#2 in the upstairs bedroom (this has only been receiving an SD signal but we want HD up there now)
  
• one coax goes from the junction box to the 211k connected to TV#3 in an upstairs office (this is an older, small TV and currently doesn't need HD)

I had been told that coax cable is not capable of transmitting HD programming, and that the coax would need to be replaced with HDMI in order to get HD (at least to TV#2).

Are you saying that the existing coax cables we have - which run from the plastic junction box on the exterior of the house to each room with a TV - would not need to be replaced with HDMI?

In other words, will coax work to transmit the signal from the plastic junction box to each Dish box (whether that's a Hopper or Joey), in full HD? That is, the only HDMI cabling required would be the short cable to connect each TV directly to it's Hopper/Joey (and the Hopper/Joey can be connected to the "node" via coax)?

The reason I ask (probably obviously) is because I would rather not replace all the coax (which would involve, among other things, drilling multiple new holes through the exterior walls of the house to several rooms, plus running HDMI all around the exterior and though portions of the interior). If the existing coax could be used (and still get good HD) then it would be a much less involved upgrade.

Based on what I've been told and have read elsewhere, I'm guessing that simply re-using all the coax that's already in place is "too good to be true" and ain't gonna work - but I would love to be proved wrong on that.

Thanks for clarification.