Two Degrees of Separation

[JackKnife]

First let me say I'm glad I finally found this site. Trying to get info on legitimate FTA reception is rather difficult with most everybody wanting to pirate DISH networks.

With that said, I am still a newbie to the whole FTA arena and I would like to think I'm on my way to finally purchasing equipment. Thanks to Iceberg's recent review on the Pansat 3500, I believe I have determined which receiver I wish to get(Other suggestions or remarks certainly welcome).

Now to the question I have. I plan on using two satellites with my Pansat, Galaxy 3C (95?) and Intelsat 5 (97?). Considering most two LNB dishes on the market are designed for much larger separations, I'm curious to find out what others have done to pick up on Sat's that are only 2 degrees apart. So far, a few solutions came to mind from my research:

1. Use a toroidal dish (Some have stated that a minimum of 3 degrees is needed for effective reception)
2. Use a single dish and a rotator (Prefer fixed since it's cheaper, won't break down, no extra wiring)
3. Use a single dish and single LNB and focus in-between the two sats (This is probably the newbie part of me talking)
4. Jury-rig a LNB to another LNB and use a tie-wrap or something to hold it in place (I suspect for a newbie this approach has low success rate)
5. Use two separate dishes (Last resort)

Suggestions? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[PSB]

Welcome to the FTA forum!
No extra cabling is required when adding a motor to a system, one coax cable controls and powers the motor and brings back the signal to the receiver, its the receiver that powers everything!
I have had my motor for well over two years without a problem, when installed correctly they have a LONG life, my SG2100 motor gets a LOT of use and has never lest me down in the coldest winters here in MN.
IMO getting a dish without a motor is like getting a car without wheels! You WILL regret it down the road.....

 

[ken2400]

If you want to save time do #5 and use a switch. If you don't mind moving the dish by hand I bet you can get both without changing the elv of the dish.

First let me say I'm glad I finally found this site. Trying to get info on legitimate FTA reception is rather difficult with most everybody wanting to pirate DISH networks.

With that said, I am still a newbie to the whole FTA arena and I would like to think I'm on my way to finally purchasing equipment. Thanks to Iceberg's recent review on the Pansat 3500, I believe I have determined which receiver I wish to get(Other suggestions or remarks certainly welcome).

Now to the question I have. I plan on using two satellites with my Pansat, Galaxy 3C (95?) and Intelsat 5 (97?). Considering most two LNB dishes on the market are designed for much larger separations, I'm curious to find out what others have done to pick up on Sat's that are only 2 degrees apart. So far, a few solutions came to mind from my research:

1. Use a toroidal dish (Some have stated that a minimum of 3 degrees is needed for effective reception)
2. Use a single dish and a rotator (Prefer fixed since it's cheaper, won't break down, no extra wiring)
3. Use a single dish and single LNB and focus in-between the two sats (This is probably the newbie part of me talking)
4. Jury-rig a LNB to another LNB and use a tie-wrap or something to hold it in place (I suspect for a newbie this approach has low success rate)
5. Use two separate dishes (Last resort)

Suggestions? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[JackKnife]

Welcome to the FTA forum!
No extra cabling is required when adding a motor to a system, one coax cable controls and powers the motor and brings back the signal to the receiver, its the receiver that powers everything!
I have had my motor for well over two years without a problem, when installed correctly they have a LONG life, my SG2100 motor gets a LOT of use and has never lest me down in the coldest winters here in MN.
IMO getting a dish without a motor is like getting a car without wheels! You WILL regret it down the road.....

Thanks for the correction on the rotator, for some reason I was under the impression additional wiring was required. The rotator idea is nice, but what other popular sats are there in the US?

IA5 seems to be the biggest bang for the direction while most other seems to be predominantly encrypted with a small smattering of clear channels. So far I am finding it difficult to justify the cost. What sats are you using? Also what is the response time I can expect when I am switching channels?

 

[PSB]

There are MANY satellites of interest up there, the most popular right now must be G10R at 123w. I am switching between too many satellites to name and count but around 10+ on a daily basis, both KU and C-Band.
If you make sure to have the first channel listed on each satellite is a Horizontally polarized satellite the receiver sends the full 17v to the motor (rather than 13v on vertical channels) and you can expect to wait around 1-30 seconds between satellites. I just timed how long it takes me to get from SBS6 @ 74w to G10R @ 123w and it was around 20 seconds!
And remember its not just the channels that you see listed that you will pick up, IMO feeds are a lot more fun and always a kick to pick up!

 

[Tron]

There is far more english FTA on G-10R (123w) than on IA-5 (97w), so I have a fixed dish dedicated to G-10R. I also have a motorized setup for the other birds. I believe that the amount of FTA up there in total across the arc more than justifies the motor purchase.

Two degrees separation on Ku will not work well on one fixed dish. Note that the Superdish 121 gets two degrees separation (119w and 121w), however uses a special feedhorn and one LNB is circular and the other linear. With linear Ku satellites, its very important that the LNB be in the optimal (exact center) position. On the Superdish you'll notice that the linear LNB is in the optimal position with the circular LNB to the side. You could get by with 2 degrees separation on a Toroidal 90 (not the T-55, which won't work at all for linear birds), but only if one of the satellites is DBS (circular), since two LNBFs next to each other that close cannot both be in optimal position.

 

[BrettTRay]

Why couldn't he just use a 121 superdish and swap out the lnb's?

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

So far, a few solutions came to mind from my research:

1. Use a toroidal dish (Some have stated that a minimum of 3 degrees is needed for effective reception)
2. Use a single dish and a rotator (Prefer fixed since it's cheaper, won't break down, no extra wiring)
3. Use a single dish and single LNB and focus in-between the two sats (This is probably the newbie part of me talking)
4. Jury-rig a LNB to another LNB and use a tie-wrap or something to hold it in place (I suspect for a newbie this approach has low success rate)
5. Use two separate dishes (Last resort)

I assure you that the setup of a Toroidal will be much harder than #4.

I have paid some of the top installers in the state to try a Toroidal in the beginning and it was beyond them.

It takes a lot of time and patience - and time to understand all its quirks.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

You could get by with 2 degrees separation on a Toroidal 90 (not the T-55, which won't work at all for linear birds), but only if one of the satellites is DBS (circular), since two LNBFs next to each other that close cannot both be in optimal position.

I have made 2 110 lnbs work on a T-90 - a normal LNB and a SATC LNB. It involved the SATC 110 in the sweet spot and the normal 110 LNB with tie wraps, lol. It worked, but I could get more signal off the E* 110 with a Dish 500.

So I believe that if one had the time, patience and knowledge, and McGuiver factor, 2 degrees IS very doable - especially if I can do 2 at 0 degree seperation.

 

[Mr Tony]

Why couldn't he just use a 121 superdish and swap out the lnb's?

because the way the SD is set up, the DBS LNB looks like a pencil tip. I have a DirecPC dish that works the same way (KU on 99, DBS on 101) and there was no way I could use 2 KU band LNB"s due to the way KU LNB's are manufactured. Also, on these the LNB's go back about 4 inches and "v" away from each other so they can fit it

Dont get me wrong, if you gut the hell out of the LNB's you MIGHT be able to do it. The motor is the easiest way to get more than one satellite (and Pete overexaggerates a little with the motor theory). If you want to get the full potential of FTA, not having a motor is like buying a car in Arizona that doesnt have AC. Yeah you can survive, but it isn't confortable.

I use to ghetto move my dish all the time. But the first time you move a dish when its -10 out...you get a motor then
My motor has survived 2 MN winters and working on its 3rd

 

[Othea]

2 degrees

I don't know how the toroidal dish fares, but with a regular dish it is already difficult enough to install two Ku Lnbf's side by side for satellites 4° apart. I don't see any way to do this at 2°.

In my opinion, you have 2 choices: (a) a dish with rotator, or (b) two dishes, two lnbf's, and a diseqc switch.

You can always get a single dish and lnbf and add a motor later (just make sure you get a dish that will retrofit to the motor of your choice). This may not be a bad idea for many newbies, because first-time installation will be a bit easier. To borrow a metaphor, it's sort of like learning to ride a bike in Arizona for the first time; its easier without the air conditioner strapped on.

In any case, I think Pete and Iceberg are right: one way or another, you probably will end up getting a rotator at some point.

 

[Katrinasucks]

FWIW, The docs on the T90 say that it can get sats no closer than 4 degrees. Simply put, the LNBFs take up too much room.

I'm sure any other dish would have the same limitation... Unless (as Ice hinted) you do something about the LNBF problem.

 

[Tron]

Why couldn't he just use a 121 superdish and swap out the lnb's?

Another reason that wouldn't work well is that linear Ku LNBs must be in the sweet spot, exactly center. If you swap the circular on a Superdish for a linear, it won't perform very well since its off center. I suppose it *might* work for stronger transponders only, might make for a good experiment one day if I come across the hardware

 

[Tron]

I use to ghetto move my dish all the time. But the first time you move a dish when its -10 out...you get a motor then

This must have given you the incentive to find and peak your signal VERY quickly

 

[PSB]

It defiantly focuses the mind, put it that way!

 

[JackKnife]

First and foremost, I have to thank you all for your input. All your advice and input is definitely helping me make my decision. I think this will be my course of action:

1. Buy a 30" dish to pick up the IA5 sat.
2. Use that dish to make sure I can even pick up all the other sats I want. (I live near the bottom of the north side of a hill.)
3. Learn the subtleties of aiming a dish and be a human rotator for a little while.
4. Once I feel like I know what I'm doing, I'll go ahead and shell out for a rotator.

I figure the cost of a superdish or a toroidal dish(and all the needed LNB's) is significantly more than a single dish/lnb + rotator, not to mention probably alot harder to setup and aim.

Something I haven't really researched into much depth, the differences between linear and circular LNB's. Before reading Tron's post, I never put too much thought behind what LNB I was getting with the dish. I just figured I was going to make due with the included one. Near as I can tell, most FTA signals use linear transmissions. What would I use a circular LNB for? What out on the market could be considered a swiss army LNB? Once again thanks for all your help and happy holidays.

 

[PSB]

All the DBS satellites use circular polarization if you look in the frequently asked questions area you can see what you will get on DBS FTA, mainly its Gol TV NASA and some radio.
I use the QPH-031 LNBF it has four outputs, two linear and two circular, then the signals can be combined with a 2 way DiSEqC switch! You can simply zip tie a cheapo DBS LNBF to your KU LNBF, but then all your DBS satellites will have to be off-set from their true orbital positions. With the QPH-031 LNBF all the satellites are at the correct orbital positions!

 

[ken2400]

A 30" dish should work. If I did not have any other dishs around I would have bought a 36" dish to get more stuff.

Good luck with install and keep us posted on your results.

First and foremost, I have to thank you all for your input. All your advice and input is definitely helping me make my decision. I think this will be my course of action:
1. Buy a 30" dish to pick up the IA5 sat.
2. Use that dish to make sure I can even pick up all the other sats I want. (I live near the bottom of the north side of a hill.)
3. Learn the subtleties of aiming a dish and be a human rotator for a little while.
4. Once I feel like I know what I'm doing, I'll go ahead and shell out for a rotator.
I figure the cost of a superdish or a toroidal dish(and all the needed LNB's) is significantly more than a single dish/lnb + rotator, not to mention probably alot harder to setup and aim.
Something I haven't really researched into much depth, the differences between linear and circular LNB's. Before reading Tron's post, I never put too much thought behind what LNB I was getting with the dish. I just figured I was going to make due with the included one. Near as I can tell, most FTA signals use linear transmissions. What would I use a circular LNB for? What out on the market could be considered a swiss army LNB? Once again thanks for all your help and happy holidays.

 

[Mr Tony]

This must have given you the incentive to find and peak your signal VERY quickly

that might be why I don't need a meter....

Nothing suck worse than moving a dish from G10 to G3 (for the hockey game) when its that cold

I use to have little black marks with "AMC9", "G11", G3", G10" etc on it so I knew where to aim the dish

 

[Tron]

I use to have little black marks with "AMC9", "G11", G3", G10" etc on it so I knew where to aim the dish

I used that method when I had only the 1 meter Channel Master dish (before I setup the second dish with the SG-2100). It works very well for those who don't want to go with a motor yet but want to skip around and see what's up there