Want to combine signal from two 18" dishs for more signal?

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ken2400

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Sep 4, 2004
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Central NY State
So is there a way to combine the signal from two 18" dishs into one?
I ask because I have a lot of 18" dishs without lnb's sitting around.

Thanks
 
In practice: NO.

As Pedro mentioned, it's only worth the effort if you are listening to far-off galaxies, or maybe our spacecraft as they head out that way. :D
 
Interesting question.

If one dish is at 50% Q, and the second dish is at 50% Q, will that make 100% Q?

My guess is it would remain 50%Q with the ability to go 200-500 foot of coax.

You could always give it a try and find out.
I'd be curious of the results.
 
I love this idea, but something not mentioned is how you would power the LNBFs. Double signal in means double power going out of receiver to power the equipment. That would have to be coordinated or boosted as well...

hmmmmm....
 
Both LNBs would have to be phase-locked to one another and the various differences in the group delays would have to be compensated over the IF range of 950-2150 MHz. The phase-locked LNB requirement alone would drive the cost beyond any economic reason. A 26" dish will have the same gain as two perfectly combined 18" dishes, so in this domain that is the only way to go.
 
How about this. Two separate dishes each with their own LNBs and cables. Normally just use one receiver. But say you want to see a big game and you're losing the signal because of rain fade. Fire up the second receiver to the same channel. Then combine the two signals before they run into the primary receiver ... you could use some sort of manual switching procedure (A-B switch?) to shunt the signal that normally goes to the secondary receiver to a combiner that would then send the combined signal to the primary receiver. Of course you would not be able to change channels once the signal was combined but at least you get to see the game. :)
 
I have a better way... get out the cutting torch and welding gear an weld the two together. The key is to make the 18 in dish bigger and keep a single parabolic curve. :rolleyes:

Now that I'm done with my sarcasm. It's easier to get a regular FTA dish and go from there. :)
 
My 2 cents: Having 2 LNB's feeding a signal to front end of a STB would over load the front end of the receiver.
 
I agree...the combining would have to be done at the microwave level...not at the first IF level.

If the LNBs are phase-locked to each other, the combining can be done at IF. In fact this is the preferred way to do it as the wavelengths are longer, making the combining process less critical. You also don't have to worry about the losses at RF when getting the signals to the same place.
 
If the LNBs are phase-locked to each other, the combining can be done at IF. In fact this is the preferred way to do it as the wavelengths are longer, making the combining process less critical. You also don't have to worry about the losses at RF when getting the signals to the same place.

I read this a couple days ago, and it's been jumping around in my head. The discussion here has been all about combining the RF signals, either at the lnb or receiver level, however it seems to me that for qpsk or 8psk signals to work, you also have to have the detected SR level signal in phase as well, or it doesn't matter if you've combined the rf signals. However, perhaps they are SOOO much lower in freq, higher in wavelength, that the path differences are completely negligeable? I guess the wavelengths would be like 30' or more, so I guess unless you had huge differences in the path lengths, there wouldn't be a problem?
 
I read this a couple days ago, and it's been jumping around in my head. The discussion here has been all about combining the RF signals, either at the lnb or receiver level, however it seems to me that for qpsk or 8psk signals to work, you also have to have the detected SR level signal in phase as well, or it doesn't matter if you've combined the rf signals. However, perhaps they are SOOO much lower in freq, higher in wavelength, that the path differences are completely negligeable? I guess the wavelengths would be like 30' or more, so I guess unless you had huge differences in the path lengths, there wouldn't be a problem?

Know exactly what you mean BJ. I got to thinking why comercial LNB maufacturers do not concentrate on this instead of their making stupid claims on noise and conversion levels. Of course it would be down to cost again
 
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If the LNBs are phase-locked to each other, the combining can be done at IF. In fact this is the preferred way to do it as the wavelengths are longer, making the combining process less critical. You also don't have to worry about the losses at RF when getting the signals to the same place.
I would add to that - an additional challenge after PLL sync - to provide same path ( same impedance, same characteristics of cabling ) to IF combiner, best place for it - close to LNB.
There are a lot of issues what very hard to resolve by such home project.
 
It seems every few months somebody brings this topic up and we beat it again. Perhaps we should have a sub-forum filled with stickies of 'dead horse' threads. Let me take a stab at beating this one to death.

In reality this is simply one variation on a technique that has been used for many decades in many domains. VLBI, direction finding, interference cancellation and directional antennas are common examples. In fact it wasn't uncommon to assemble arrays of TV antennas to improve fringe reception not that long ago. That was easily accessible to hobbyists because the wavelengths were long enough that RF combining was practical. Things are a little different at 12 GHz, compared to 200 MHz.

I have argued a number of times that this technique is for the most part economically irrelevant to FTA. That does not mean it would be impossible to do, just far more expensive than putting up a bigger dish, which is what I think brings most people to the topic on this forum.

However I suppose there could be some situations where someone might legitimately consider it. If you have HOA or government rules stopping you from putting up an adequate sized dish, you would have few other choices. This also turns out to be an incredibly selective way of canceling interference from adjacent orbital positions. While bigger dishes typically address this more economically, it still could be a reason to consider this. As the mini-BUDers have found, there is often a lot of signal in a C-band footprint, but adjacent satellite interference cannot be addressed with a single small dish.

So to clear up misconceptions, I thought I would review a bit of the theory. To start with, lets look at a 12 GHz signal. We could do C-band, but the result ends up about the same. A 12 GHz signal has a wavelength of 2.5cm. If we want to have maximum combining efficiency, let's try to add the signals within 5 degrees of phase of one another. That would be within about 0.35mm of path difference at RF. Not very easy.

However if we use a stable frequency source we could use true PLL LNBs from more than one dish to take this down to around 1 GHz. Stable frequency sources are pretty easy to come by. A few years ago I picked one up for $10 surplus and only had to make some minor fixes to the oven drive circuitry. After that I could lock it to WWVB with a simple but extremely long time constant PLL and it would hold better than 1 part in 10^12 (1 second in 30000 years). True PLL LNBs are not cheap, however.

What does this buy us? Well, phase is what is important, not frequency. That's one reason why WWVB, which broadcasts at only 60 kHz, can be used to make such incredibly accurate adjustments to a frequency source. At 1 GHz, a 5 degree phase error is about 4.2mm. That's starting to look possible, but probably not practical for the hobbyist to trim cables. However if you had an analog phase shifter that worked at this frequency, that might be good enough.

It's also important to note that the paths from each PLL LNB don't need to be exactly the same length, but only be in phase, unless the path differences start to become a major fraction of a symbol. If we take a SR of 30000, the wave length is 10m. Applying our stringent 5 degree criteria, we need the maximum path length difference to be less than 14cm. Not a big deal.

Since we're heading the right direction, let's mix and filter the LNB outputs in the comfort of our home with a generator, say at 950 MHz and also locked to our reference. Now the signals will only have to be within a phase difference of 8.4cm because the IF is 50 MHz. I could trim cables to do that, but would need a way to vary this for different signals. We also have to compensate gain, but that's not very hard. At this point the signals could be easily combined in a number of ways. Mix the result with our 950 MHz generator and we're back to 1 GHz and the input of a standard FTA receiver.

None of this would be easy, but a well motivated hobbyist with a good understanding of the theory could likely do this for less than $2000, and perhaps half of that, with careful selection of surplus equipment and finds on eBay. You might have to buy the LNBs new. Still people here buy receivers at around $400 fairly frequently, so we're not totally out of the ballpark.

I've glossed over the details, but commonly available equipment could do this. It just costs. You don't have to do this at the LNB. You don't need to get down to 5 degrees for useful combining. And if you did this digitally, you could obviate many of the complexities and compensate in software. I'm not encouraging anyone to do this, and still believe there are easier solutions in most cases. But it is possible. For most cases, use a bigger dish.
 
I took a quick look for a reference when penning my previous post, but missed a fairly good treatment on the the losses involved: "Understanding Mismatch Effects in Power Combining Circuits". In particular see this useful graph.

I should have done the calculations, but was going from memory when I did something like this a few decades ago. One could relax my 5 degree requirement to say 20 degrees and suffer only a 0.1 dB loss. That means in terms of phase combining a signal at 50 MHz, one could tolerate an error of 34 cm. But at 1 GHz this is still 1.7 cm, which means we can make this whole design much simpler by tossing out the second downconversion/upconversion completely. As this is easier than I thought, let's look at more detail.

If we are trying for 20 degree steps, we need 360/20 = 18 different delays. We want this to work from 950-1450 MHz, so let's do the steps as the next higher power of two and cut the cables for the 950 MHz wavelength (31.6 cm). If we are only combining two antennas, we need a bank of five SPDT coax switches to select 32 different delays for one antenna. If the switches are configured for "zero" delay (actually delta delay), the other antenna will need an equivalent length of cable to compensate, less half a wavelength so we center the adjustment. For each switch we need to increase the delay by a power of two over the "zero" delay position.

For a 31.6 cm wavelength, we will start with a delay of 31.6/32 = 0.99 cm in free space. But signals travel slower in coax, which means the first delay needs a cable longer than the "zero" delay path cable for that switch by 0.82 cm with RG-6. Tight, but possible. The next switches will need 1.6, 3.3, 6.6 and 13.1 cm of extra delay. As long as we're close, slight errors really won't matter. At the front we need a variable gain amplifier to compensate for all the splitters in the switched path and other gain variations. I've attached a conceptual diagram.

We also need to verify the overall group delay in the LNBs and cable running to our combiner are within say 20-50 cm between the two paths to ensure we don't garble DVB-S2 symbols. This is a lot simpler than I thought, and it actually might work. You still need a stable frequency reference and true PLL LNBs. It probably would be good to have a pulse generator and an interval counter to time the cables and splitters, but this is icing on the cake. I've picked up surplus instruments like those for well under $100. With these simplifications, I believe I can trim the budget down to around $500-1000. Also note this could be extended to handle more antennas fairly easily.
 

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