We Got A Problem!!!

FreddyvsJasonvsAsh

SatelliteGuys Pro
Original poster
Oct 20, 2004
803
0
Lakeland, FL
I called ATSC like 5 mins ago and talked to the president and well only cable has to broadcast in the 3 HDTV formats. DBS can broadcast however they please. This is really crappy news...sorry guys
 
FreddyvsJasonvsAsh said:
I called ATSC like 5 mins ago and talked to the president and well only cable has to broadcast in the 3 HDTV formats. DBS can broadcast however they please. This is really crappy news...sorry guys


just hold up until the satcasters jockey some birds around and the spaceway twins light up. it will get better and better for you hd guys.
 
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I just called the FCC again and they said they can only go after the original broadcasters and they can't do anything about Dish.....so the guy said that I spoke with. I told him everything we have been talking about.
 
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FreddyvsJasonvsAsh said:
I called ATSC like 5 mins ago and talked to the president and well only cable has to broadcast in the 3 HDTV formats. DBS can broadcast however they please. This is really crappy news...sorry guys
When you spoke to him, did you ask him if the ATSC recognized 1280x1080i as an HD resolution?

Being a standards organization, I was hopeful that they would stick to the terms they defined, regardless of who the provider is.

Scott
 
FreddyvsJasonvsAsh said:
I called ATSC like 5 mins ago and talked to the president and well only cable has to broadcast in the 3 HDTV formats. DBS can broadcast however they please. This is really crappy news...sorry guys
That's fine, but it certainly doesn't mean DBS providers can call it HD or HDTV...that would be still be a falsehood and deceptive advertising. I would have no problem if E* were to state they were the HD-Lite Leader or D* advertise their HD-Like experience. At least the consumer will be provided with an accurate description of the service.
 
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SRW1000 said:
When you spoke to him, did you ask him if the ATSC recognized 1280x1080i as an HD resolution?
Being a standards organization, I was hopeful that they would stick to the terms they defined, regardless of who the provider is.
Scott

Yes I asked him but he said they couldn't do anything over DBS. He said the 3 formats I gave were the HD resolutions. I just called the Nevada State attorney-general and filied with them and they told me to call CO State attorney-general's office as well
 
dragon002 said:
just hold up until the satcasters jockey some birds around and the spaceway twins light up. it will get better and better for you hd guys.

Sorry, but for D* I don't think anything will be happening except some LIL-HD until D10 and D11 go up based on what they said at CES.
 
hey guys I got another e-mail but this time from Dishnetwork..regarding HD-lite

Dear: Brian



Thank you for contacting DISH Network regarding HD programming.



DISH Network strives to offer the best quality of high definition programming that meets industry and television standards while maximizing DISH Network’s HD offering to consumers nationwide.





Thank you,

Natalie Winters

Executive Office of Dish Network

Email natalie.winters@echostar.com


-----Original Message-----
From: DarkCarnivalle@aol.com [mailto:DarkCarnivalle@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 12:46 AM
To: CEO
Subject: Important



To Whom It May Concern:

I am a current Dish Network Customer. I want to express my opinion about the decision of having the VOOM HD channels or any channel that transmit naively at 1920x1080i downgraded to 1280x1080i (HD Lite)

If Dish Network wants to be the HD Leader, Dish Network needs to address this issue. As a customer who spent lots of money on my High Definition Theater, I do not want downgraded resolution on my HD channels (HD Lite). Dish Network should really consider putting back all the current and future HD channels at 1920x1080i. Dish Network will not be only the HD Leader in quantity but also in quality of HD programming.

Dish Network still has not addressed the alarming trend of downgrading its HD channels to the 1280x1080 resolution. The drop in picture quality is extremely noticeable and makes HD content less enjoyable. Furthermore, the FCC specifically defines high definition television as adhering to the following standards:

FCC 01-22 released January 23, 2001, FIRST REPORT AND ORDER AND FURTHER NOTICE
OF PROPOSED RULE RULEMAKING, paragraph 71 (and footnote 204).
http://ftp.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Ord...1/fcc01022.pdf

States the definition of HD:
The Executive Committee of the Advanced Television Systems Committee has approved for release the following statement regarding the identification of the HDTV and SDTV transmission formats within the ATSC Digital Television Standard: "There
are six video formats in the ATSC DTV standard which are High Definition. They are
the 1080 line by 1920 pixel formats at all picture rates (24, 30 and 60 pictures
per second), and the 720 line by 1280 pixel formats at these same picture rates.
All of these formats have a 16:9 aspect ratio."

We all applaud you for taking the leadership in High Definition channels but we do not want less quality on them.

Sincerely,

Brian Wenzloff
 
Very early today but adjusted a big and a little dish after wind storm.

I dropped the Voom (kept $10. hd pack) after DISH reduced hd quality
by both resolution and transfer speed. I could notice the difference to a small
degree with my cheap TV. Bought the 811 ($420 inc. tax) 3 months ago.
Whatever DISH says, I don't believe them. If they hit me with ANY new fees
come feb 1st (willing to pay $1 more for access fee) likely I'll be gone within
a few months. It's been a constant battle with them for 6 years, including getting
a rebate after the very first self-install. You can't imagine the trouble I went through 3 years ago to get the right parts for 3 satellite hook-up. Truly
disgusted right now with them. (yes, took 3 years to do that 2000-2003)

Peter, SW Iowa
 
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No one owns the phrase High Definition, 480i used to be called High Definition a long time ago. ATSC standard applies to OTA only, cable and dbs can do what they want.
 
I love that reply letter from Dish. Whenever you get a short letter like that, it means that they know they are doing something wrong. The more they claim, the more you can use against them. Notice how they use words that don't promise anything, only promise to strive to do things. Pretty slippery.

But it doesn't change the fact the advertisements are for HD and they are providing something less. Especially because they COMPARE THEMSELVES TO CABLE. That is the key. If Cable is required to provide HD in full format, even if Dish isn't, they can't compare themselves to cable and claim to provide more HD channels unless they are claiming to offer the same product. And again, "generally understood" is the key.

And kb7 - please provide a source for 480i being called "high definition" a long time ago. There was no such term as that before Japan started their analog HD type broadcasting in the 80s, and it was higher than 480i. 480i is an NTSC standard, not a worldwide one.
 
There are articles published in the late 1930's / early 1940's that refered to the 525 scan line system (480i) as "high definition", because the early electronic television systems used in the 1930's were less than 400 scan lines.

Although, the only ATSC broadcast resolutions currently used are 720p x 1280 and 1080i x 1980, several other resolutions are used to aquire and record HD video. Sony HDCAM (non SD version) is 1080i x 1440 and Panasonic DVCPRO HD is 1080i x 1280. The broadcast injdustry considers these formats as "high definition" and not "HD-Lite".

On the reception end there are many different resolutions that are considered "high definition". LCD and plasma displays that have resolutions of 768 x 1280, 768 x 1024, 1024 x 1024, etc. are all considered to be "high definition and not "HD-Lite". The only ATSC requirement for a display to be called HD, is that it must support 720p scan lines.

I don't like the fact that both D* and E* down-convert channels from their origional format, because each conversion produces artifacts. I also don't like it when OTA stations that broadcast 1080i start adding sub-channels that eat up the bandwidth, because that creates more artifacts. Even though the quality is reduced in both cases the result is still technically "high definition".
 
caam1 said:
The only ATSC requirement for a display to be called HD, is that it must support 720p scan lines.
Can you post a link to this information, please.

Thanks!

I posted this previously...

[PIE]The FCC references and incorporate the ATSC Standard for DTV. The ATSC defines HDTV as 1920x1080p, 1920x1080i, and 1280x720p. According to page 12 of the Recommended Practice: Guide to the Use of the ATSC Digital Television Standard (see below references), "The ATSC Standard enables transmission of HDTV pictures at several frame rates and one of two picture formats; these are listed in the top two lines of Table 5.1 . The ATSC Standard also enables the delivery digital sound in various formats."

References:
1. http://www.fcc.gov/oet/faqs/dtvfaqs.html
2. http://www.atsc.org/standards.html (HDTV definition page #12)
3. http://www.atsc.org/standards/practices/a_54a.pdf (Table 5.1 - page #24)

Table 5.1 (top two lines of ref #3):

Vertical Lines Pixels Aspect Ratio Picture Rate
1080 1920 16:9 60i, 30p, 24p
720 1280 16:9 60p, 30p, 24p


What D* and more recently E* are doing is stealing lines of horizontal resolution to create what is known as HD-Lite (1440x1080i, 1280x1080i), which does meet the ATSC standard and, in my opinion, does not look like HD.

I will be filing my FTC petition soon. They are free to call it Expanded, Exhanced, Better Resolution TV or whatever term they care to coin, but it IS NOT HD![/PIE]
 
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caam1 said:
There are articles published in the late 1930's / early 1940's that refered to the 525 scan line system (480i) as "high definition", because the early electronic television systems used in the 1930's were less than 400 scan lines.


I thought TV came out in the 50's?
 
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History of Television Timeline





Main Page
• History of Television


By Mary Bellis
Television was not invented by a single inventor, instead many people working together and alone, contributed to the evolution of TV.

1831: Joseph Henry's and Michael Faraday's work with electromagnetism makes possible the era of electronic communication to begin.

1862: Abbe Giovanna Caselli invents his "pantelegraph" and becomes the first person to transmit a still image over wires.

1873: Scientists May and Smith experiment with selenium and light, this opens the door for inventors to transform images into electronic signals.

1876: Boston civil servant George Carey was thinking about complete television systems and in 1877 he put forward drawings for what he called a "selenium camera" that would allow people to "see by electricity." Eugen Goldstein coins the term "cathode rays" to describe the light emitted when an electric current was forced through a vacuum tube.

Late 1870's: Scientists and engineers like Paiva, Figuier, and Senlecq were suggesting alternative designs for "telectroscopes."

1880: Inventors like Bell and Edison theorize about telephone devices that transmit image as well as sound. Bell's photophone used light to transmit sound and he wanted to advance his device for image sending. George Carey builds a rudimentary system with light-sensitive cells.

1881: Sheldon Bidwell experiments with telephotography, another photophone.

1884: Paul Nipkow sends images over wires using a rotating metal disk technology calling it the "electric telescope" with 18 lines of resolution.

1900: At the World's Fair in Paris, the 1st International Congress of Electricity was held, where Russian, Constantin Perskyi made the first known use of the word "television."

Soon after, the momentum shifted from ideas and discussions to physical development of TV systems. Two paths were followed:

Mechanical television - based on Nipkow's rotating disks, and

Electronic television - based on the cathode ray tube work done independently in 1907 by English inventor A.A. Campbell-Swinton and Russian scientist Boris Rosing.

1906: Lee de Forest invents the "Audion" vacuum tube that proved essential to electronics. The Audion was the first tube with the ablity to amplify signals. Boris Rosing combines Nipkow's disk and a cathode ray tube and builds the first working mechanical TV system.

1907: Campbell Swinton and Boris Rosing suggest using cathode ray tubes to transmit images - independent of each other, they both develop electronic scanning methods of reproducing images.

American Charles Jenkins and Scotsman John Baird followed the mechanical model while Philo Farnsworth, working independently in San Francisco, and Russian émigré Vladimir Zworkin, working for Westinghouse and later RCA, advanced the electronic model.

1923: Vladimir Zworykin patents his iconscope a TV camera tube based on Campbell Swinton's ideas. The iconscope, which he called an "electric eye" becomes the cornerstone for further television development. He later develops the kinescope for picture display.

1924 - 1925: American Charles Jenkins and John Baird from Scotland, each demonstrate the mechanical transmissions of images over wire circuits. Photo Left: Jenkin's Radiovisor Model 100 circa 1931, sold as a kit. Baird becomes the first person to transmit moving silhouette images using a mechanical system based on Nipkow's disk. Vladimir Zworykin patents a color television system.

1926: John Baird operates a 30 lines of resolution system at 5 frames per second.

1927: Bell Telephone and the U.S. Department of Commerce conduct the first long distance use of TV, between Washington D.C. and New York City on April 9th. Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover commented, “Today we have, in a sense, the transmission of sight for the first time in the world’s history. Human genius has now destroyed the impediment of distance in a new respect, and in a manner hitherto unknown.” Philo Farnsworth files for a patent on the first complete electronic television system, which he called the Image Dissector.

1928: The Federal Radio Commission issues the first television license (W3XK) to Charles Jenkins.

1929: Vladimir Zworykin demonstrates the first practical electronic system for both the transmission and reception of images using his new kinescope tube. John Baird opens the first TV studio, however, the image quality was poor.

1930: Charles Jenkins broadcasts the first TV commercial. The BBC begins regular TV transmissions.

1933: Iowa State University (W9XK) starts broadcasting twice weekly television programs in cooperation with radio station WSUI.

1936: About 200 hundred television sets are in use world-wide. The introduction of coaxial cable, which is a pure copper or copper-coated wire surrounded by insulation and an aluminum covering. These cables were and are used to transmit television, telephone and data signals. The 1st "experimental" coaxial cable lines were laid by AT&T between New York and Philadelphia in 1936. The first “regular” installation connected Minneapolis and Stevens Point, WI in 1941. The original L1 coaxial-cable system could carry 480 telephone conversations or one television program. By the 1970's, L5 systems could carry 132,000 calls or more than 200 television programs.

1937: CBS begins TV development. The BBC begins high definition broadcasts in London. Brothers and Stanford researchers Russell and Sigurd Varian introduced the Klystron in. A Klystron is a high-frequency amplifier for generating microwaves. It is considered the technology that makes UHF-TV possible because it gives the ability to generate the high power required in this spectrum.

1939: Vladimir Zworykin and RCA conduct experimentally broadcasts from the Empire State Building. Television was demonstrated at the New York World's Fair and the San Francisco Golden Gate International Exposition. RCA's David Sarnoff used his company's exhibit at the 1939 World's Fair as a showcase for the 1st Presidential speech (Roosevelt) on television and to introduce RCA's new line of television receivers – some of which had to be coupled with a radio if you wanted to hear sound. The Dumont company starts making tv sets.

1940: Peter Goldmark invents a 343 lines of resolution color television.

1941: The FCC releases the NTSC standard for black and white TV.

1943: Vladimir Zworykin developed a better camera tube - the Orthicon. The Orthicon (Photo Left) had enough light sensitivity to record outdoor events at night.

1946: Peter Goldmark, working for CBS, demonstrated his color television system to the FCC. His system produced color pictures by having a red-blue-green wheel spin in front of a cathode ray tube. This mechanical means of producing a color picture was used in 1949 to broadcast medical procedures from Pennsylvania and Atlantic City hospitals. In Atlantic City, viewers could come to the convention center to see broadcasts of operations. Reports from the time noted that the realism of seeing surgery in color caused more than a few viewers to faint. Although Goldmark's mechanical system was eventually replaced by an electronic system he is recognized as the first to introduce a broadcasting color television system.

1948: Cable television is introduced in Pennsylvania as a means of bringing television to rural areas. A patent was granted to Louis W. Parker for a low-cost television receiver. One million homes in the United States have television sets.

1950: The FCC approves the first color television standard which is replaced by a second in 1953. Vladimir Zworykin developed a better camera tube - the Vidicon.

1956: Ampex introduces the first practical videotape system of broadcast quality.

1956: Robert Adler invents the first practical remote control called the Zenith Space Commander, proceeded by wired remotes and units that failed in sunlight.

1960: The first split screen broadcast occurs on the Kennedy - Nixon debates.

1962: The All Channel Receiver Act requires that UHF tuners (channels 14 to 83) be included in all sets.

1962: AT&T launches Telstar, the first satellite to carry TV broadcasts - broadcasts are now internationally relayed.

1967: Most TV broadcasts are in color.

1969: July 20, first TV transmission from the moon and 600 million people watch.

1972: Half the TVs in homes are color sets.

1973: Giant screen projection TV is first marketed.

1976: Sony introduces betamax, the first home video cassette recorder.

1978: PBS becomes the first station to switch to all satellite delivery of programs.

1981: NHK demonstrates HDTV with 1,125 lines of resolution.

1982: Dolby surround sound for home sets is introduced.

1983: Direct Broadcast Satellite begins service in Indianapolis, In.

1984: Stereo TV broadcasts approved.

1986: Super VHS introduced.

1993: Closed captioning required on all sets.

1996: The FCC approves ATSC's HDTV standard. Billion TV sets world-wide.

Continue with >>> History of Television

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sorry ,1928 experimental.
 

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