Whats up with the FTA equipment prices?

[DirectDishNet]

Hey, I was just on feebay looking at some fta receivers and noticed that they are coming way down in price. I'm looking at one to just put in the garage for a small TV and figured I could have Aljazeera english on while I work.

Kinda scary to buy one now that I noticed them so cheap. Whats up with them? Are they all trash now? I can't afford a AZ box just yet.

 

[Mr Tony]

simple....most are now being used what they intended to be used for

free to air

not stealing...the card swap by Dish & Bell obviously seems ot be working

 

[DirectDishNet]

Yea, I know about the dish going to nagra3 and the pirate ship has sank but I think my real question is... Is the feebay sellers now flooding the market with non working receivers? I mean I found some coolsats & pansats going for as little as $35-$45..........

I think it's a little too scary to buy them.........I'll wait

 

[Anole]

Yea, I'm waiting for $25 and 30, too.... shipped! -

If you know what you are buying, and if you are getting well designed/supported models, then there is no problem.
However, a lot of the hacker-only receivers may have never gotten any realistic FTA support (and never will), so I'd steer clear of those.

 

[Apprentice]

I bought a coolsat 4000 pro on fleabay for 35 shipped and it has worked flawless. It has at least given me the ability to play and get things setup before I spend more on a high end STB.

 

[brentb636]

Yea, I know about the dish going to nagra3 and the pirate ship has sank but I think my real question is... Is the feebay sellers now flooding the market with non working receivers? I mean I found some coolsats & pansats going for as little as $35-$45..........

I think it's a little too scary to buy them.........I'll wait

The SD receivers can be very good bargains. I have a "new" Pansat 2800A for $28 delivered. It works just fine. At these prices, your risk is pretty low. Pay with a credit card to cover yourself.

 

[Bill_KY]

I got some excellent deals on FeeBay. Got a World Direct Dish under $40 Shipped, plus a couple of used FTA Receivers for $15 to $30 each including shipping.

 

[AcWxRadar]

This coin has two sides.

The Jolly Rogers are unloading good merchandise at garage sale prices and at the same time, the manufacturers will be steering away from developing new "not so legit" boxes that could be used for FTA with a lot of nice perks. Therefore, new boxes strictly for FTA use will go up in price as the the competitive nature of the biz will leave only the legit mfgs at the top.

This is a good time to buy up the surplus and "borderline legit" STB's for FTA use simply for spare parts to keep good receivers going. I am referring to the Coolsat 4, 5 and 6K series for one. Pansats and Viewsats for another.

We know what to do with them! Too bad we had to wait 4-6 years to buy a good box for $125 - $175 off the sticker price! LOL!

RADAR

 

[SatelliteAV]

Very troubling times for legit resellers and manufacturers of new equipment. We talk to dozens of dealers each week who are being devastated by the hack boxes that are flooding the market and wiping out their equipment sales and installation services. It is impossible to keep the lights on in many shops with the dumping of equipment that is occurring and the struggling economy.

One dealer reported his customer finding over 200 "new in box" name brand receivers with DiSEqC switches beside a dumpster. Now all of the customer's friends in this ethnic programming community have free equipment and the dealer is not even getting the installation calls. An out of work "installer" is placing a dish on the roof and tossing an unsecured cable down to the receiver for $35. Hard for a guy who provides quality workmanship by installing to code and sells equipment with great customer service to compete against this.

Manufacturers and resellers who were carrying large amounts of inventory on equipment destined for theft of service market were waiting out hoping for their market to return are now often selling far below the manufacturing price just to get out of the business. I am frequently contacted with unbelievable offers on pallets of brand name receivers at prices that are pennies on the dollar. A representative liquidating stock on a well known name was willing to accept an offer of less than $5 per receiver on 20,000 receivers. Great price on a receiver that was originally retailing for $185!

The upside of this....... There will be many new people exposed to free to air programming. Hopefully this will jump start an industry in North America and create a demand for future sales and additional content. Meanwhile, the small mom and pop stores that realized that there is a market for Free To Air programming and were marketing in their communities just had the carpet yanked out from under them! I hope that the retail cost of receivers will quickly return to a sustainable level that can support local resellers!

With that said, remember that there are resellers out there that are depending on your purchases and referrals!

 

[zamar23]

Major broadcasters invested a lot to deliver Sat TV in every house via a pizza dish with "easy" slogan. European multicultural community made FTA a viable alternative in content to commercial broadcast. Asian FTA STB makers capitalized on both these trends, saturating the market by vastly improved receivers. Until European FTA exists, new STB development will keep going, and North American STB makers will have to match prices of Asian counterparts offering "global" product models.

However, demand for true FTA equipment is now severely limited in N/A by dominance of several factors: highly scars content of true FTA programming, obsolete broadcast equipment requiring higher investment on consumer end to receive scattered all over the sky weaker signals, stiff learning curve to master the task for a typical consumer. If you look through known sat hack forums, massive stupidity of their content shocks. I don't think, many of these people are capable and would turn to true FTA to replace what they're missing now. Without government support programs, similar to ATSC broadcast support, viability of true FTA in North America is clearly challenged. In fact, it's now at large supported by foreign governments. And that's what drives people to sell their FTA boxes for pennies. May be its time to challenge monopoly in local Sat TV broadcast? Free Sat TV Initiatives similar to AcWxRadar's may look promising, if adequately supported by funds, good organizational skills and qualified implementation.

 

[DirectDishNet]

Well, I guess I'll save up some money to get a real receiver. I am looking at the GEOSATPRO DVR1100C - DVR READY USB 2.0 FTA / CAS at Satellite AV

 

[Stargazer]

What should one look for on ebay for a "good deal" and what particular receivers? What should one avoid? I am sure there is certain text that they put on their auctions to cover themselves.

 

[Anole]

SD receivers I'd think twice about:

Well, I hate to make a black list, but let's take a page from a popular hack site.
If you disagree with any of these, and have had good luck with 'em, jump in and say so.
- Ariza
- Captain
- Captive Works (I know there'll be howls over this one)
- CNX
- Cooltec
- Dream
- ExtremeView
- Homesat
- Icon
- Slinger
- Kbox
- NeoSat
- nFusion
- Satopia
- Seesat
- Skyview
- Sonicview (gonna get some letters on this one, too!) -
- Sonysat
- Viewsat (most models - again, there'll be screaming in the aisles)

Let's just say I'd ask a few questions (here on the forum) before I'd take the word of any hacker review, as to the usefulness of these receivers.
Your mileage may vary.

No, this is hardly the final word on the subject...

 

[AcWxRadar]

What should one look for on ebay for a "good deal" and what particular receivers? What should one avoid? I am sure there is certain text that they put on their auctions to cover themselves.

Stargazer,

The obvious is the sellers credentials first and foremost. I do not buy from a seller with less than a 98% rating reputation and less than 500 sales unless I can speak to them personally and can verify their establishment through the BBB. Then, I only use PayPal secured with a credit card with fraud insurance.

All the above is just logic when wheeling and dealing over the internet. When it comes down to the product itself, there is more to be concerned with.

Phrases such as "New in Box", "Unopened", "All Original Equipment Included", "Factory Version" or "Not Modified" etc are positive notes.

"As Is", "Slightly Used", "Has Damage" or "Condition Uncertain" are key words to be wary of unless the price is just too good. Damaged or faulty equipment, if the seller makes the effort not to hide such and is open and honest about it, can be good deals for parts and salvage purposes.

Judge by the price if there is a "Buy It Now" option. If the price for this option is in line with new equipment prices, it is probably on the level. If it is less than 2/3 the price of new then I find it iffy. It had better be 1/10th the price in that case, otherwise why not buy new.

Surely others will give their recommendations here too, but this is my own sort of acceptance system of criteria.

RADAR

 

[AcWxRadar]

Well, I hate to make a black list, but let's take a page from a popular hack site.
If you disagree with any of these, and have had good luck with 'em, jump in and say so.

- Captive Works (I know there'll be howls over this one)

- nFusion

- Sonicview (gonna get some letters on this one, too!) -

- Viewsat (most models - again, there'll be screaming in the aisles)

Let's just say I'd ask a few questions (here on the forum) before I'd take the word of any hacker review, as to the usefulness of these receivers.
Your mileage may vary.

No, this is hardly the final word on the subject...

Anole,

I can vouch for a few of these models from personal experience. The Captive Works, Sonic View and NFusion are definitely models to not waste your money on, I wouldn't take them if they were FREE! Most of their models are so bad that it is a joke that they could ever have sold them in the first place. Ha Ha, joke on me because I bought one of them myself! Bad mistake no doubt! The others were provided free gratis to test in beta stages. They didn't like my evaluations and my recommendations were anatomically impossible if not painful. LOL!

I don't know if I agree regarding the Viewsat. I have never owned one and I may be confusing it with another brand, but I thought that it used to at least have a fair FTA reputation.

The rest of the receiver makes on your list I fully agree with as being negative and should be avoided as well.

I have been involved with other forums in the past and I notice that many frown upon negative reviews, regardless if they are honest and true or simply a bashing. I don't believe in bashing a particular make or model, but I wouldn't step aside and allow my fellow Satguy's member to buy something that I know is junk or crap.

If it is a hack box and worthless as heck for that and no good at all for FTA then the buyer needs to know. Just because the advertising promotes it differently doesn't make it proper. If the damn thing doesn't work, it shouldn't be on the market and buyers who are unaware should be given the accurate information right up front!

I am on a soapbox here, but I deserve this right as I personally got burned on one of these receivers, the Captive Works. I thought that I had researched it well, but when I got it in my hands and began using it, it became quite apparent that it was not what it was advertised to be.

The early Coolsat models (4K, 5K and 6K) are my absolute favorites. They may have been used by hackers, but they are truly designed well for FTA and feed hunting use. You just cannot beat these receivers!

The Fortec Star family of receivers are still produced and are equally as good, I have a Dynamic and I love it! It ranks right there for a SD receiver with the early Coolsats.

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion, but I also base it upon personal experience.

RADAR

 

[Anole]

The Coolsat 4000, 5000, & 6000, as well as Pansat, Fortec Star, and Visionsat IV-200, have all been hacked, but -also- operate quite well for the intended purpose of FTA.
So, I left them off the above list.

As far as I could tell, the Viewsat models commanded the highest prices, and were held in highest regard in the hack community.
They got new firmware before most all other receivers, when needed.
Couple of years ago, the premier model didn't even run a motor worth a darn. That did eventually get fixed, I read.
They had multiple confusing model names; some may not have had blind scan (?).
If offered one, I'd probably take it and play with it.

As for Coolsat 6100, 7000-series, and later models, they were made at a different factory, have different firmware, and a very different user interface from their earlier cousins.
All had generous hack support, but I wouldn't necessarily hold that against them.
You'd have to check with users to get more info on motor, switch, and blindscan support.
The 8000-series hi-def models have a following, and the others may be good bargains, as well.

 

[AcWxRadar]

The Coolsat 4000, 5000, & 6000, as well as Pansat, Fortec Star, and Visionsat IV-200, have all been hacked, but -also- operate quite well for the intended purpose of FTA.
So, I left them off the above list.

As far as I could tell, the Viewsat models commanded the highest prices, and were held in highest regard in the hack community.
They got new firmware before most all other receivers, when needed.
Couple of years ago, the premier model didn't even run a motor worth a darn. That did eventually get fixed, I read.
They had multiple confusing model names; some may not have had blind scan (?).
If offered one, I'd probably take it and play with it.

As for Coolsat 6100, 7000-series, and later models, they were made at a different factory, have different firmware, and a very different user interface from their earlier cousins.
All had generous hack support, but I wouldn't necessarily hold that against them.
You'd have to check with users to get more info on motor, switch, and blindscan support.
The 8000-series hi-def models have a following, and the others may be good bargains, as well.

Anole,

I think I was confusing the "VisionSat" with the "ViewSat". Not being an owner of either, the names just seem too similar so I have a hard time differentiating between them.

I can say something regarding the Coolsat 6100 as I was witness to another owners dilemna in setting it up. It was directed towards the hacker market. I almost bought one thinking it would be an upgrade from the 5K or 6K. I am glad I skated out of that purchase.

I hope everyone understands that you can do good things or bad things with a good instrument. It all depends upon whose hands the instrument is in. Just like the saying, guns don't kill people, bad people with guns kill people. Same goes for receivers. Receivers themselves don't hack, but bad people with open receivers do.

RADAR

 

[AcWxRadar]

Well, I guess I'll save up some money to get a real receiver.[/URL]

DirectDishNet,

I hope we haven't hijacked your thread too badly. I know that we are deviating off your original topic on a sort of tangent of our own, but Anole's and my information is good information for you and others to be aware of.

I hope that it gives you a heads up kinda warning. As I have stated before, I don't want to see anyone have to find out the mistakes alone or in a hard way.
If I have important or first hand information, I will share it with you to ensure that you you don't get hosed.

Good luck and happy hunting!

RADAR

 

[zamar23]

Since you're "deviating", may be it makes sense to explain, what does a term "hacked receiver" means in your understanding? And why do you think, its a bad term? What are factual major differences on PCB design level of the receivers you recommend from the receivers you suggest to avoid, such as Sonicview and Viewsat that were prised for fast boot, quick blindscan (at times not as complete as desired), tuner sensitivity and signal quality (except for some cheaper caps used in earlier PS board models, and some reported overheating due to 3-d party early versions of upgrade boards being a clone of obsolete DN board design)? The manufacturer never suggested to install these boards or use unauthorized firmware versions in the first place.

I'll give you one example: if I modify a sat receiver to add extra capability (like an ATSC pass through port) or improve its durability & decrease noise level (by adding & replacing fans), will it become worse since it was hacked or better? Last time I checked, term "hacking" was to be applied to anything FTA Sat TV enthusiasts do, or any technology enthusiasts for that matter. Of course, stealing a TV signal is a bad thing, but why blame sat receivers (advanced electronic devices) for that, especially these known to be made by most reliable quality SK vendors? Can someone explain, what makes Geosat Pro or Fortec Star "better" on PCB level? Do they even offer HD STB models at all? Sure, prospective customers would be happy to learn the details...

 

[SatelliteAV]

To demonstrate the confusion that exists..... Why demonize the Coolsat 6100, but praise the Visonsat IV-200? Same base motherboard, but the 6100 had on board flash for timeshift recording. Other physical differences are cosmetic.

The difference is the firmware development. The IV-200 firmware files favored the hobbyists, because we lobbied them! We wanted a STB that we could offer to the hobbyist community that met our needs. Why were the Coolsat 4000, 5000 and 6000 friendly to the hobbyist? Because we lobbied them! Why are the Fortec Star North American models so friendly to the hobbyist community? Because Fortec North America had a great director who was also an avid hobbyist.

The GEOSATpro DSR100c, DSR200c and DVR1100 models are based on the same motherboards as a brand that is on Anole's list. But what makes the GEOSATpro brand and models different? Because we are developing features that support the hobbyist and will be around for many years as our market is not associated with theft of service! This is also what now sets the SatelliteGuys sponsors apart. Sadoun, WS International and SatelliteAV sell products that are designed for and supports the hobbyist.

I disagree with making a blacklist based on brand names.

If a Satellite Guy has time and wants to take the lead and be constructive in helping out the consumer, why not make a list of all known brands and models available in North America. Once that process is complete, post a poll where SatelliteGuys can rate each model on hobbyist features and merit.